kallend 1,623
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http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=2680091&page=1
It sounds like the headline should be:
Drunk Undercover Police Shoot Unarmed Bachelor Party; Police Unharmed
QuoteNEW YORK Nov 26, 2006 (AP)—Three officers, including the officer hit by the car, were treated and released. (Not seriously injured) Another detective remained hospitalized Sunday for
hypertension(itchy trigger finger).
Kelly said undercover officers were inside the club to document illicit activity. With one more violation the club would be shut down, Kelly said.
On Sunday, the group 100 Blacks in Law Enforcement Who Care said it is issuing a vote of no confidence in Kelly over the shooting. It is also calling for the removal of the chief of the Organized Crime Control Bureau, Anthony Izzo, who it says created the undercover unit involved in the incident.
Additionally, the group wants a re-examination of what it says is a policy that allows officers from the organized crime control unit to consume alcohol on the job. "Who knows whether or not that was a factor in this particular shooting?" said Marq Claxton, a retired police detective and one of the founders of the group.
It sounds like the headline should be:
Drunk Undercover Police Shoot Unarmed Bachelor Party; Police Unharmed
"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken
Ken
jcd11235 0
QuoteIt sounds like the headline should be:
Drunk Undercover Police Shoot Unarmed Bachelor Party; Police Unharmed
If drunks can be held responsible for their driving, they should be held responsible for their shooting, as well.
Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!
Richards 0
QuoteIt sounds like the headline should be:
Drunk Undercover Police Shoot Unarmed Bachelor Party; Police Unharmed
It has since been noted in the globe and mail that during the initial altercation one of the victims yelled "yo, get my gun", and the decease had yelled "Let's fuck him up". Let us analyse that statement "Let's (plural) fuck him (singular) up" threats of guns and demonstarting the wilingness to use of numerical superiority to "fuck some guy up" over some perceived slight, diminishes the likelyhood that these were a couple of innocent angels who were gunned down for "driving while black".
I acknowledge that these facts alone do not mean they deserved to die, but I am now even less inclined than before to crucify the cops over this until they have been subject to a fair inquiry.
My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.
ExAFO 0
QuoteThis is flat out murder.
Dude, unless you're privvy to the entire police report, all eyewitness testimony, and all empirical evidence, you're not in a position to conclude this.
Let the courts sort this out. Stay dispassionate about it. We have a system for handling these things.
Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.
Andy9o8 0
QuoteIt has since been noted in the globe and mail that during the initial altercation one of the victims yelled "yo, get my gun", and the decease had yelled "Let's fuck him up".
I'm not yet willing to either accept or reject this as being true. Who reported that this was said by the victims? The police, or a neutral source?
Edit: the 2 Gobe and Mail articles I found both said:
Quote
According to Commissioner Kelly, the groom was involved in a verbal dispute outside the club after 4 a.m. One of his friends made a reference to a gun.
That's all I see.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20061125.wny-shootings1125/BNStory/International/
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20061127.wnyshooting1127/BNStory/International/
Richards 0
QuoteQuoteQuoteIt has since been noted in the globe and mail that during the initial altercation one of the victims yelled "yo, get my gun", and the decease had yelled "Let's fuck him up".
I'm not yet willing to either accept or reject this as being true. Who reported that this was said by the victims? The police, or a neutral source?
I don't recall. I read it in the Globe this morning on the bus but I have already thrown it out.
My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.
Quote
According to Commissioner Kelly, the groom was involved in a verbal dispute outside the club after 4 a.m. One of his friends made a reference to a gun.
So now making a reference to a gun near a police officer is enough to necessitate the use of deadly force?
Richards 0
I don't know what to say. The hardcopy I had elaborated more than that.
My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.
QuoteQuoteThis is flat out murder.
Dude, unless you're privvy to the entire police report, all eyewitness testimony, and all empirical evidence, you're not in a position to conclude this.
Let the courts sort this out. Stay dispassionate about it. We have a system for handling these things.
I have read a number of accounts and if I, a regular person, were to do what the cops did in this case, not being a cop, it would be called murder, flat out. If a car came towards me, I have the option of getting out of the way. I do not have the option of emptying a clip on the driver and then reloading and emptying another clip.
"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young
ExAFO 0
QuoteQuoteQuoteThis is flat out murder.
Dude, unless you're privvy to the entire police report, all eyewitness testimony, and all empirical evidence, you're not in a position to conclude this.
Let the courts sort this out. Stay dispassionate about it. We have a system for handling these things.
I have read a number of accounts and if I, a regular person, were to do what the cops did in this case, not being a cop, it would be called murder, flat out. If a car came towards me, I have the option of getting out of the way. I do not have the option of emptying a clip on the driver and then reloading and emptying another clip.
...All legally moot, not to mention irrelevant.
Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteThis is flat out murder.
Dude, unless you're privvy to the entire police report, all eyewitness testimony, and all empirical evidence, you're not in a position to conclude this.
Let the courts sort this out. Stay dispassionate about it. We have a system for handling these things.
I have read a number of accounts and if I, a regular person, were to do what the cops did in this case, not being a cop, it would be called murder, flat out. If a car came towards me, I have the option of getting out of the way. I do not have the option of emptying a clip on the driver and then reloading and emptying another clip.
...All legally moot, not to mention irrelevant.
Irrelevant? If am threatened by someone in car should I not have the option to empty a clip on them and reload to empty another? Or, is this option only availabe to cops?
"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young
ExAFO 0
I am looking to find facts of this case, not emotional or socio-political stances/hypotheticals. The former are useful for coming to a legal conclusion, the latter are not.
Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteThis is flat out murder.
Dude, unless you're privvy to the entire police report, all eyewitness testimony, and all empirical evidence, you're not in a position to conclude this.
Let the courts sort this out. Stay dispassionate about it. We have a system for handling these things.
I have read a number of accounts and if I, a regular person, were to do what the cops did in this case, not being a cop, it would be called murder, flat out. If a car came towards me, I have the option of getting out of the way. I do not have the option of emptying a clip on the driver and then reloading and emptying another clip.
...All legally moot, not to mention irrelevant.
Irrelevant? If am threatened by someone in car should I not have the option to empty a clip on them and reload to empty another? Or, is this option only availabe to cops?
Didn't you just post in another thread
QuoteUnless you have been there... your opinion is weightless without merit.
Looks like a lot of people are exercising a healthy dose of "fill in the blanks - to conform with your ideology" in this thread.
QuoteI am looking to find facts of this case, not emotional or socio-political stances/hypotheticals. The former are useful for coming to a legal conclusion, the latter are not.
I agree. I must also add that this is an extremely sad case for everyone involved and does nothing to help the image of the police. Also, my nephew is a police officer in the Kansas City area so I am not at all against the police but do frown on those who abuse the power entrusted to them. They are suppose to be professional and should conduct themselves in that manner. Not like a gunslinging sheriff of the wild west.
"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young
QuoteLooks like a lot of people are exercising a healthy dose of "fill in the blanks - to conform with your ideology" in this thread.
I think we're all guilty
of this. Conform, conform, I command you!!
"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young
QuoteI am looking to find facts of this case, not emotional or socio-political stances/hypotheticals. The former are useful for coming to a legal conclusion, the latter are not.
I think the CNN.com article has some interesting facts. There were 7 officers present. Two did not fire their weapons at all. One shot his 31 times, despite never seeing a gun or receiving return fire.
Also, they're some pretty poor shots. Out of 50+ rounds,
QuoteBell was struck twice. Joseph Guzman, 31, was shot at least 11 times, and Trent Benefield, 23, was hit three times. Guzman was in critical condition Monday and Benefield was stable.
The officers' shots struck the men's car 21 times. They also hit nearby homes and shattered windows at a train station, though no residents were injured.
And finally:
QuoteThe department's policy prohibits shooting at moving vehicles states "unless deadly force is being used against the police officers or another person present, by means other than a moving vehicle."
Blues,
Dave
"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)
(drink Mountain Dew)
Staten Island News
QuoteThe situation began to unravel when one of the officers alerted the backup team outside that a man inside was possibly armed. During a later altercation among patrons, police claim they heard a member of Bell's bachelor party, say, "Yo, get my gun."
One of the undercover detectives responded by retrieving his weapon and confronting Bell and his friends after they entered their car. Kelly suggested that it was unorthodox for the officer to blow his cover rather than rely on other officers to make the arrest.
"He was still acting in an undercover capacity when he followed the group down the street and apparently took some enforcement action, and that was unusual," Kelly said.
Contagious fire was not a valid excuse, Sharpton said.
"To say that one gun causes an atmosphere where you keep shooting is to tell me that if one policeman makes a mistake, you could be subjected innocently to what amounts to a firing squad," he said.
"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken
Ken
jenfly00 0
QuoteQuoteI am looking to find facts of this case, not emotional or socio-political stances/hypotheticals. The former are useful for coming to a legal conclusion, the latter are not.
I agree. I must also add that this is an extremely sad case for everyone involved and does nothing to help the image of the police. Also, my nephew is a police officer in the Kansas City area so I am not at all against the police but do frown on those who abuse the power entrusted to them. They are suppose to be professional and should conduct themselves in that manner. Not like a gunslinging sheriff of the wild west.
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1967136;search_string=police;#1967136
"Come on, everybody knows that since 911 all cops have been given a get out of jail free card so they can be the biggest asshats out there! Just ask jenfly00.....
" -Rushmc-----------------------
"O brave new world that has such people in it".
"O brave new world that has such people in it".
SkyDekker 1,122
There just isn't any evidence out there to support any conclusion at this point. I do have a question however.
It is against NYPD policy to shoot at a vehicle, even if it is used as a weapon. if it turns out that this is what happened, what should the punishment be for killing a person while departamental policy? Is it enough for a murder charge?
It is against NYPD policy to shoot at a vehicle, even if it is used as a weapon. if it turns out that this is what happened, what should the punishment be for killing a person while departamental policy? Is it enough for a murder charge?
QuoteThere just isn't any evidence out there to support any conclusion at this point. I do have a question however.
It is against NYPD policy to shoot at a vehicle, even if it is used as a weapon.
Where did you get that information? I realize it wasn't the case here, but if people are shooting at you from a car it's permissible to shoot back.
SkyDekker 1,122
QuoteWhere did you get that information? I realize it wasn't the case here, but if people are shooting at you from a car it's permissible to shoot back.
I meant if the vehicle was used as the only weapon. You are right, if they are shooting from the car, they are certainly alowed to return fire.
Scoop 0
QuoteThe department's policy prohibits shooting at moving vehicles states "unless deadly force is being used against the police officers or another person present, by means other than a moving vehicle."
Every police force has its own policy, but this does not overrule law. For example, one of our policies is to always arrest at a domestic incident. If you got no powers of arrest, after you check out the situation, then that would be unlawful to arrest, despite what policy dictates.
No one, not even your employer, can overrule your legal protection. ie. Honest held belief of imminent danger and reacting to that danger.
Lets stop digging out dirt and abstract quotes from the media and let the courts decide if the force was lawful or not
Well, taking a clue from another current thread, as I understand it, the police were on the little white-haired old lady's property, uninvited, after kicking her door in. She wasn't on police property.
If a police officer doesn't like the working conditions of the job, he has the option of leaving the force.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
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