China and Russia get Shy about DPRK

[Gawain 0]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,220079,00.html

It's an AP article.

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...and Russia and China have been reluctant to punish their impoverished neighbor too severely.

Similar to the previous draft, the latest proposal asserts that the situation in North Korea ... ... "constitutes a clear threat to international peace and security."

The new draft remains under Chapter 7... ...which includes a range of measures to ...breaking diplomatic relations to imposing naval blockades and taking military action.

While China says North Korea should be punished, it wants sanctions to be limited primarily to the North's nuclear program.

DPRK would be able to manipulate unsanctioned activities to maintain their military/strategic operations. The oil-for-food model is an example of UN programs like this don't always work.

The US, in my opinion, may want to position the idea that PRC's sovereignty is not/will not be threatened by a potential collapse of DPRK's government. If anything, ROK, PRC, Japan and the US should plan a contingency for just such an event, and find ways to reach that end. A unified Korea would be just as stable, and would be a real boom for east Asia's economic and political foundation. The lessons of the unification of Germany would be a good reference for a plan of action.

The UN is on the ropes with this issue in my opinion. If it doesn't make the grade to work this out, then I believe a pact should be forged between PRC, ROK, Japan and the US to work the problem.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Andy9o8 0]

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It's an AP article.

LOL. But now it's tainted.

[Gawain 0]

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It's an AP article.

LOL. But now it's tainted.

Yeah, but if I didn't say that, everyone would've been saying to me, "Dude, f**k*n' loser, Fox is the third reich reborn, how can you believe that shit?" It was lose-lose in a way...

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Trent 0]

I'll go ahead and take the conspiracy theory angle on this. China doesn't want to sanction NK because any potential collapse risks exposing chain directly from China to NK to Iran to the rest of the nutjobs in the ME. Why is it always China and Russia who are the only ones not wanting to do anything about Iran or NK??

What should be done about NK is simple. 100% embargo. Nothing in, nothing out. Not that they have a whole lot of exports besides arms to Iran...

But not that China would abide by that anyway... nor would they let UN inspectors on their border to make sure the policy is enforced... my opinion.

Oh, hello again!

[jcd11235 0]

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What should be done about NK is simple. 100% embargo. Nothing in, nothing out. Not that they have a whole lot of exports besides arms to Iran...

Should we utilize this strategy for all countries with a nuclear program, or should we be hypocritical and only apply it to countries that we don't like?

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Trent 0]

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Should we utilize this strategy for all countries with a nuclear program, or should we be hypocritical and only apply it to countries that we don't like?

Well, considering how the UN told NK not to do it, China and Russia (NK's biggest allies) told them not to do it, and pretty much the entire world thinks that wittle kim does not need to be playing with nukes... we should apply it to NK.

It's nice you try to put this all on the US, but in this case "WE" is everyone BUT NK.

100% embargo... the world told them not to do it, they did. It has to be made clear that threatening cannot be a country's one natural resource.

Oh, hello again!

[jcd11235 0]

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Should we utilize this strategy for all countries with a nuclear program, or should we be hypocritical and only apply it to countries that we don't like?

Well, considering how the UN told NK not to do it, China and Russia (NK's biggest allies) told them not to do it, and pretty much the entire world thinks that wittle kim does not need to be playing with nukes... we should apply it to NK.

It's nice you try to put this all on the US, but in this case "WE" is everyone BUT NK.

100% embargo... the world told them not to do it, they did. It has to be made clear that threatening cannot be a country's one natural resource.

So are you saying we should also promote a 100% embargo of Israel since they are in violation of many UN Security Council Resolutions?

North Korea's government doesn't worry me as much as mine (US) does. We need to stop bullying other countries when it politically suits us. We also need to stop abusing our veto power in the UNSC so that only those countries we do not like are held responsible for their UNSC resolution violations.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Trent 0]

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So are you saying we should also promote a 100% embargo of Israel since they are in violation of many UN Security Council Resolutions?

Did I not write clearly? I said that there should be a 100% embargo on NK... how'd that translate to Israel? OHHH... that's right, it's a subject change masked to look like an attempt to point out hypocrisy. Just to play along... EVERYONE, including NK's allies, told NK not to test nukes... they did anyway. When has EVERYONE (not JUST 14 or fewer members of the UNSC) told Israel not to do something?

The rest of your post is similar to all the other, "I can't stand my own country" rants. I honestly hope that you ,and the rest of the world, don't have to find out what it would be like if someone else were the big kid on the block.

Oh, hello again!

[Frenchy68 0]

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Did I not write clearly? I said that there should be a 100% embargo on NK

Good idea!Then what haapens? Please elaborate.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[Trent 0]

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Good idea!Smile
Then what haapens? Please elaborate.Unimpressed

Then China and Russia start secretly violating the embargo because there's some nefarious shit going on between them all! Just like a Tom Clancy novel or something!

OR

Jane and Joe NKorean will have to learn how to grow enough rice and raise enough cattle to feed their people. I mean, North Korea is all about the Juche, right?

OR

Lil' Kim could just go nuts(er) and start shooting off more than his mouth, which would probably get his ass kicked by Japan and S.Korea.

What do you think would happen??? This is fun!

Oh, hello again!

[jcd11235 0]

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So are you saying we should also promote a 100% embargo of Israel since they are in violation of many UN Security Council Resolutions?

Did I not write clearly? I said that there should be a 100% embargo on NK... how'd that translate to Israel? OHHH... that's right, it's a subject change masked to look like an attempt to point out hypocrisy. Just to play along... EVERYONE, including NK's allies, told NK not to test nukes... they did anyway. When has EVERYONE (not JUST 14 or fewer members of the UNSC) told Israel not to do something?

The rest of your post is similar to all the other, "I can't stand my own country" rants. I honestly hope that you ,and the rest of the world, don't have to find out what it would be like if someone else were the big kid on the block.

I apologize for utilizing the Socratic to analyze your idea. I'm also sorry that I am unable to view the world through red, white and blue colored nationalist glasses, and instead choose to look at things objectively.

I'll try to work on those bad habits.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Botellines 0]

Why do you say that China and Russia gets shy with N.K.? I think it is the U.S who is getting shy. What is this shit of sanctions, diplomacy and UN? Where is the old good preemptive strike? Ah sorry, i forgot, N.K. actually DOES have WMD. My bad.

[Trent 0]

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I apologize for utilizing the Socratic to analyze your idea. I'm also sorry that I am unable to view the world through red, white and blue colored nationalist glasses, and instead choose to look at things objectively.

I'll try to work on those bad habits.

Well, I responded to your "Socratic" so you'll just have to work on reading entire posts instead.

Never mind... you're right... WE'RE the bad guys... blame America first! THAT way, you can avoid actually talking about the situation at hand. So let's forget North Korea lest someone call us a hypocrite.

Oh, hello again!

[jcd11235 0]

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I apologize for utilizing the Socratic to analyze your idea. I'm also sorry that I am unable to view the world through red, white and blue colored nationalist glasses, and instead choose to look at things objectively.

I'll try to work on those bad habits.

Well, I responded to your "Socratic" so you'll just have to work on reading entire posts instead.

Never mind... you're right... WE'RE the bad guys... blame America first! THAT way, you can avoid actually talking about the situation at hand. So let's forget North Korea lest someone call us a hypocrite.

I read whole posts before responding. Thank you for taking a cheap shot, though.

I don't blame America first. The US has done some great things. We've also done some despicable things. My objectivity helps me to see the difference.

I don't care if NK (or Iran) has nuclear weapons. Lots of other countries have them. Only one country has ever used such a weapon on another country, however.

Tell us, if it is so important that North Korea not have nuclear weapons, why didn't we try to stop their nuclear program about four years ago when they announced it to the world, instead of invading Iraq, which posed no threat to America?

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Andy9o8 0]

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Tell us, if it is so important that North Korea not have nuclear weapons, why didn't we try to stop their nuclear program, which they had announced to the world, instead of invading Iraq, which posed no threat to America?

Because North Korea wasn't the place where the current president felt his father had left a job unfinished. It's all about boys and their dads.

[Gawain 0]

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I honestly hope that you ,and the rest of the world, don't have to find out what it would be like if someone else were the big kid on the block.

The world already has, the USSR, and China come to mind. People couldn't flee the eastern Bloc fast enough and the world has forgotten those that have suffered under the boot in PRC. That won't convince the ankle biters though. Like you indicated, their elitist pie-in-the-sky-unrelated-counter-arguments are all they have.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Trent 0]

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I read whole posts before responding. Thank you for taking a cheap shot, though.

S'what you get for being snobby.

As for the rest of your post... see Gawain's last reply.

Oh, hello again!

[jcd11235 0]

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I honestly hope that you ,and the rest of the world, don't have to find out what it would be like if someone else were the big kid on the block.

The world already has, the USSR, and China come to mind. People couldn't flee the eastern Bloc fast enough and the world has forgotten those that have suffered under the boot in PRC.

Back in 2000 I rented from a Chech who immigrated during the sixties who said on several occasions that he could no longer tell the difference between the country he left he left and (then) current US. Even at that time he was pretty convinced we had become the same police state he had left.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Gawain 0]

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Why do you say that China and Russia gets shy with N.K.?

Um, maybe because Russia and China oppose sanctions on DPRK??

The article goes on to say that progress is still being made, but they are showing themselves to be obstacles in the wrealm of dealing with Iran and DPRK.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[StreetScooby 5]

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but they are showing themselves to be obstacles in the wrealm of dealing with Iran and DPRK.

Question for you Gawain -
If we started taking out leaders, how long before our leaders would be taken out? Just a ball park figure, if you have one.

We are all engines of karma

[Frenchy68 0]

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Why do you say that China and Russia gets shy with N.K.?

Um, maybe because Russia and China oppose sanctions on DPRK??

The article goes on to say that progress is still being made, but they are showing themselves to be obstacles in the wrealm of dealing with Iran and DPRK.

Sanctions is a good way to make a stance, but in some instances, can be highly counter productive. The DPRK is an extremely poor country. Applying sanctions greatly affects the "little" people of the DPRK (essentially 90% of the population), while not doing a great deal to destabilize the regime. Most successful dictatorship are made of a repressive regime (with its cronies), a small percentage of the population making profit off the regime, and a huge percentage of poor people finding themselves lucky enough if the can have enough to eat every day. Spontaneous revolutions rarely occur under these circumstances, and when they do, they tend to be replaced with a different form of oppression. Only when a majority of the population is wealthy enough to want more than a bowl of rice a day do democracy driven revolutions occur. The DPRK has per se no middle class, so such events are highly unlikely to happen. Making it poorer only reinforces the regime's control over the general population, and feeds the propaganda machine with the "us against them" rethoric.
So what to do? Doing nothing is not an option. Military intervention will not happen for many different reasons, and the regime knows that (regardless of whether North Korea has nuclear capability or not). Cutting the DPRK off from any aid will only make things worse. I believe this is what China is vetoing. Unfortunately, carrot and stick, which means conditional aid, may be the only viable option for lack of a better one. Much like a bad illness that can't be cured, you should at least try to contain it until you find means to induce remission...

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[purnell 0]

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North Korea's government doesn't worry me as much as mine (US) does. We need to stop bullying other countries when it politically suits us. We also need to stop abusing our veto power in the UNSC so that only those countries we do not like are held responsible for their UNSC resolution violations.

The people who live there may disagree with you. North Korea is a closed society which we know little about. What is generally acknowledged is that most of the population is routinely in a state of semi-starvation and the government has a habit of putting 10s of thousands of its own citizens in gulags for various 'political' crimes.

But, using your logic that everyone should (or at least has the right) to have nuclear weapons, perhaps the best solution is for us to provide Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan with some help with their nuclear programs. By providing working examples to study and play around with.

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[BillyVance 34]

ever seen the videos of North Korea's military marching? See how skinny those soldiers look?

Million man army, my ass... they're all skin and bones.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[jcd11235 0]

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The people who live there may disagree with you. North Korea is a closed society which we know little about. What is generally acknowledged is that most of the population is routinely in a state of semi-starvation and the government has a habit of putting 10s of thousands of its own citizens in gulags for various 'political' crimes.

But, using your logic that everyone should (or at least has the right) to have nuclear weapons, perhaps the best solution is for us to provide Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan with some help with their nuclear programs. By providing working examples to study and play around with.

These are unrelated issues, and don't affect my opinion that we should not meddle with their nuclear program.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Trent 0]

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These are unrelated issues, and don't affect my opinion that we should not meddle with their nuclear program.

By that logic, our nuke program is an unrelated issue and you should not use it in your arguments.

The question is: Do you REALLY want NK to have nukes?

Oh, hello again!