Animal Cruelty

[PLFXpert 0]

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What I'm saying is if you get sick or have an infection do you go to the doctor and then do you take any medication? If you do you are a hypocrite plain and simple. Why should medications be all right for humans and not for animal health?

Absolutely; if I have a virus I will take antibiotics. I believe in science. Scientific study & research is also how we've learned about animals, their natural behaviors, intelligence, ability to feel pain, emotion, etc. Certainly I have no opposition to medications for animal health. What you're assuming is what is in some of their food is for their health, rather than for better taste or worse (actually harming them).

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[PLFXpert 0]

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But I'm not so selfish to only think of myself.

Me neither. I am capable of thinking of the livelihood of animals, too; and farmers.

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Save that I'd hate to see the complete exhaustion of fish stocks that your new nirvana would cause.

I have no idea what you mean here. However, fish is another topic all-together.

And regarding foie gras; there's a difference between wanting to take away one's choice and whether it should actually be a choice or not. For example, we do not have the choice to abuse animals which is why animal abusers are arrested and punished (not nearly severely enough, imo) under law. Foie gras is banned in several cities and one state due to the proven severity of inhumane treatment. Foie gras is made by keeping ducks in small, confined pins/cages where they can't move or spread their wings until they are force-fed with tubes shoved down their throats (all while fully conscious) on the hour to fatten their livers before slaughter (and often causing the liver to explode in the duck first).

"Bring on the foie gras", you say; and then imply that I am selfish? It's one thing to be unaware of the process and order foie gras. It's another to be aware and order it anyways. The latter person scares me, I admit.

I think I've exhausted response to your points (which have changed; at first being cost and then suddenly you're talking fish stocks? I'm not a fan of the red herring, myself.) and have already made my argument clear.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[freeflybella 0]

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I have a simple question to everyone who says animals should be raised organicly. Are you organic? Not do you just eat organic food but in every other part of your life.

What I'm saying is if you get sick or have an infection do you go to the doctor and then do you take any medication? If you do you are a hypocrite plain and simple. Why should medications be all right for humans and not for animal health?

I don't really get the comparison but I'll try to answer your question.

The definition of organically grown food is "food produced according to organic standards, which means crops grown without the use of conventional pesticides, as well as artificial fertilizers or sewage sludge, animals reared without the routine use of antibiotics and without the use of growth hormones and food processed without ionizing radiation and without the use of a wide range of food additives. It is produced on all levels without the use of genetically modified organisms"

So, yeah - "I" am organic.

No one questions that animals should be cared for when sick. The difference is that 'conventionally' raised meat is given ROUTINE antibiotics from day 1 til the end to stave off any number of illnesses that the animal would acquire under those unnatural circumstances in which they are raised.

Routine anitibiotics, growth hormones, genetic engineering, chemical pesticides - all of this is being sold to you as 'perfectly healthy'. You're getting all of this in EVERY package of meat you buy. In every carton of milk. In every stick of butter. In everything conventionally grown.

And while the government may have standards as to what each item may contain in terms of trace chemicals - they absolutely can not govern the cumulative load over a lifetime.

(It's proven that infants have a much lower acceptable limit for these chemicals but adult standards apply to baby food. Doesn't that freak you out?)

Lastly, why is it so important that people not be hypocritical? As long as that person isn't persecuting you for doing something they do, who cares? We all know right from wrong. We all know it's better to walk than drive, better to eat broccoli than cookies. We all do things we know aren't the best for us. NO ONE is perfect. NO ONE should expect you to be.

Just be willing to learn and open your heart and mind to something previously unknown. Be willing to make small diffferences if you feel something is worth it.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[freeflybella 0]

I can't believe I"m admitting to watching Survivor - but there, I admit I watched it last night.

A few of the tribe guys climbed a tree to see if the nest a mother bird was protecting had eggs in it. He accidentally knocked the nest to the ground and a day old chick fell out of it.

These 2 grown men were shamed. They climbed back up the tree and put the chick and the nest back -- all the while apologizing to the mother bird and asking for forgiveness.

It just goes to show me that down deep in all of us we have a respect for life. And compassion. And sensitivity. Somehow in modern life we lose that sensitivity.

Cut from that scene in Survivor to a egg factory farm where baby chicks are being slid down an assembly line and separated by gender. The females go on to become "layers" and the males, often go into a huge bucket. A huge bucket piled high with nothing but baby chicks on top of each other. Left to suffocate to death.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[Royd 0]

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Cut from that scene in Survivor to a egg factory farm where baby chicks are being slid down an assembly line and separated by gender. The females go on to become "layers" and the males, often go into a huge bucket. A huge bucket piled high with nothing but baby chicks on top of each other. Left to suffocate to death.

It sounds like a quandry. Little male chicks grow up to be big, mean roosters, which gladly rip each other apart, and are prone to attack humans, also.

They could be raised to the age of about 3 months and slaughtered for meat.

Take your pick.

[freeflybella 0]

You're talking symptoms. We're talking disease.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[PLFXpert 0]

Nice reply on "organic"!
OK, now way off topic:

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I can't believe I"m admitting to watching Survivor

I watch, too. And I caught a glimpse of the preview and knew I'd have trouble with this part. I don't shy away from viewing the horrors that happen to some animals by the human hand (or intervention) but if I can read/hear about it just the same, sometimes I choose not to have that picture engraved in my brain.

Thus, I left the room during this part (as I had no idea what the outcome would be) and Billy recaped the event for me.

I love the way you looked at it, as I feel the same way:

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These 2 grown men were shamed. They climbed back up the tree and put the chick and the nest back -- all the while apologizing to the mother bird and asking for forgiveness.

It just goes to show me that down deep in all of us we have a respect for life. And compassion. And sensitivity

My issue, however, is with the Survivor producers. Certainly in the wild, I understand survival, etc. But this show first and foremost is about entertainment. Second, it's a game of survival. From every season to every episode, these "survivors" have more than enough resources given to them to eat and sustain themselves. They're certainly not starved in the true sense of the word. So, I see no point in what Cao Boi did climbing the tree for an egg; nor do I accept the producers allowed it. It reminded me of "Lord of the Flies"; just unnecessary.

Having said that, I still watch the show and overall enjoy it.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[PLFXpert 0]

Speaking of eating organically and antibiotics...

Freeflybella, when was the last time you actually needed antibiotics?

For me I think it was high school.

I haven't had so much as the common cold in 4 years, either.

While, I wouldn't dare say I'm 100% organic, I do opt for the organic choice more often than not. Purchasing foods & household products/items most accordingly to my animal welfare conscience is my main area of focus.

Still, I'd be interested, now, to read research on the correlation of those who eat organically and how often they get sick vs. those who do not. My theory is one would find the person putting less chemicals into their body get sick far less.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[micro 0]

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Still, I'd be interested, now, to read research on the correlation of those who eat organically and how often they get sick vs. those who do not. My theory is one would find the person putting less chemicals into their body get sick far less.

My wife has rheumatoid arthritis and has seen that what she eats greatly affects how she feels.

She eats organically almost entirely, and she (and I) notice a VERY BIG difference when she deviates from this and eats processed foods or if we purchase meat that has not been raised organically, etc.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[freeflybella 0]

I used to take antibiotics for things (bladder infections, etc) that I now proactively prevent. I made the decision to forgo all pharmaceuticals unless absolutely necessary. No cold meds. No headache painkillers, etc.

When I stopped eating dairy and all of my allergies disappeared including asthma.

I got a cold from my little boy this year - neither of us took meds and both were fine within a week - but nothing for ages before that.

Also, got preggers, got huge, popped a baby out and got small again without an issue. No swollen ankles, no nausea, no diabetes. No babyweight. I attribute that to diet as well.


ETA: to bring this sort of around to the original intent of this thread, I became vegan for ETHICAL reasons. The health benefits are secondary. But a nice bonus!

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[kelpdiver 2]

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Me neither. I am capable of thinking of the livelihood of animals, too; and farmers.

I value humans over the animals, myself. And their right to make their own choices.

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Save that I'd hate to see the complete exhaustion of fish stocks that your new nirvana would cause.

I have no idea what you mean here. However, fish is another topic all-together.

Switching to a low availability, high price meat model will result in a shift towards fish consumption at a time when the ocean take needs to be reduced.

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"Bring on the foie gras", you say; and then imply that I am selfish? It's one thing to be unaware of the process and order foie gras. It's another to be aware and order it anyways. The latter person scares me, I admit.

Boo! I fear the PETA terrorists more, myself.

[PLFXpert 0]

My last response to you as it seems you have not read any of my previous responses anyways. If you had, you'd know that my position on switching to a certified humane system of farming would both care about humans as well as animals (I've never put one before the other, thus you've made yet another assumption about me), and would not be a "low availability/high price" scenario.

I don't care much for extremes or extremists. I've also already touched on that and why I used PETA as a link (only one link to PETA among many other sources to illustrate my points in this thread and many previous threads regarding animal welfare).

I will say this to your "Boo!": I have a theory (which seems to be supported by psychological research & study) regarding persons who enjoy abusing animals and/or watching animals suffer. And that scares me.

It's important to add: Though such persons might scare me, I still choose not to judge b/c my opinion is and always has been in general: Unless one has walked a lifetime in another's shoes & hat, one can not fully understand where the other is coming from.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[micro 0]

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Me neither. I am capable of thinking of the livelihood of animals, too; and farmers.

I value humans over the animals, myself. And their right to make their own choices.

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Save that I'd hate to see the complete exhaustion of fish stocks that your new nirvana would cause.

I have no idea what you mean here. However, fish is another topic all-together.

Switching to a low availability, high price meat model will result in a shift towards fish consumption at a time when the ocean take needs to be reduced.

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"Bring on the foie gras", you say; and then imply that I am selfish? It's one thing to be unaware of the process and order foie gras. It's another to be aware and order it anyways. The latter person scares me, I admit.

Boo! I fear the PETA terrorists more, myself.

It's a shame to hear that someone would rather enjoy a food product that came as a result of the direct and unnecessary suffering of the animal that produced it.

Just b/c humans have free will (and animals don't) doesn't mean that we should therefore use that as an excuse to justify any behavior whatsoever. It is precisely that mentality that has given us the problems in our food to begin with... remember the cause of mad cow disease?

These animals experience pain. As there stewards, as creatures w/ dominion over them, we have an obligation to minimize suffering to them. Now, I'm no vegetarian I don't subscribe to the whole "meat is murder" mentality. However, doing everything possible to maximize the amount of food at the lowest possible price and disregarding the means to reach that end is JUST AS BAD. It's just the other side of the same coin.

Your post makes so many erroneous assumptions about PLFXpert, about motives, about other things.

For one, how the heck do you know that she doesn't value humans over animals? If a bull was charging after her child, how do you know she wouldn't shoot that bull to save her child? Again, treating livestock with RESPECT and purposefully trying to avoid undue suffering to them does not place THEM above humans.

As for your fish example, we haven't even BEGUN to tap the resources of the ocean.

Going back to the topic of free range meat, what you call the "low availability, high price meat model" (you're good at spin, aren't you. ), it should be noted that grain doesn't provide the nutrients to cattle in the same concentration that quality grasses and hay does. As a result, between 2 and 3 times the amount of grain has to be given to the cattle to match the nutritional value of what a purely grass fed animal would be getting. It's very easy to see the conclusion here... free-range cattle aren't going to need as much land as you insist they will.

In order to satify the UNNECESSARY DEMAND for purely grain fed meat (for reasons of TASTE), MORE land is needed to grow that grain. Additionally, since grain is an unnatural diet for cattle, a host of digestion problems have been introduce to the cattle that must be addressed as well. But back to land, in order to feed all that grain and to fatten up the cattle, more acreage is needed than would be needed per cow to achieve similar slaughter weights as a free range beast. And, the free range meat would be BETTER for you health wise and WOULDN'T taste like leather either... I eat it and it's delicious.

Also, as more people convert to this, prices will (what? WHAT??) go down and availability will (say it with me now) go up.

Edited for spelling and content.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[PLFXpert 0]

(And thank you for sharing your wife's example earlier.)

On a funny note, the word "erroneous" as you used always reminds me of a movie from my childhood: "Ernest Goes to Camp"....."Eggs Err-O-neous".

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[kelpdiver 2]

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As for your fish example, we haven't even BEGUN to tap the resources of the ocean.

Clearly this discussion over land use is pointless when you make statements like this. It has no basis in reality.

Virtually every desirable fishery is in decline or worse. Swordfish, lobster, rockfish in general, orange roughy, sea bass, abalone, most tunas ... squid debatably so, but it has a short life cycle and can recover if allowed. Salmon is threatened, but more by the daming of rivers than anything else. (and farmed salmon tastes like crap)

[micro 0]

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As for your fish example, we haven't even BEGUN to tap the resources of the ocean.

Clearly this discussion over land use is pointless when you make statements like this. It has no basis in reality.

Virtually every desirable fishery is in decline or worse. Swordfish, lobster, rockfish in general, orange roughy, sea bass, abalone, most tunas ... squid debatably so, but it has a short life cycle and can recover if allowed. Salmon is threatened, but more by the daming of rivers than anything else. (and farmed salmon tastes like crap)

No, this discussion ISN'T pointless, only if you let it become so by making such silly statements instead of countering me ... I see you haven't addressed my counterpoints to your arguments against free-range meat either and instead rely upon the ridiculous notion of "I like it that way therefore I'll eat it that way." That is kind of myopic, selfish reasoning that got us into the situation we're in in the first place.

tell me this... how much of the ocean is "harvested" for useable food sources?

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[Casurf1978 0]

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(and farmed salmon tastes like crap)

You forgot to mention the crap they feed them and all the diseases that farm raised fish have.

[livetofall 0]

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As for your fish example, we haven't even BEGUN to tap the resources of the ocean.

Clearly this discussion over land use is pointless when you make statements like this. It has no basis in reality.

Virtually every desirable fishery is in decline or worse. Swordfish, lobster, rockfish in general, orange roughy, sea bass, abalone, most tunas ... squid debatably so, but it has a short life cycle and can recover if allowed. Salmon is threatened, but more by the daming of rivers than anything else. (and farmed salmon tastes like crap)

the salmon are being endangerede by the california sea lions.. actually the whole Norhtwest had been endangered by Californians, seals and humans, screw up there state and move here and raise our property values...anyway the sealions made their way up the columbia river to where they just sit at the fish ladders and eat the belly and spit the rest out. As with all non native species they destroy, like nutriae and starlings. Hopefully the Navite American tribes will be able to turn over the protection act as the sealion has well exceeded over the endanger limit and have now imbalanced the foodchain..also too many sharks killed..their natural predators. The rangers and dam employees can only fire rubber bullets at them. You woulndt believe how may fishermen would be happy to pay $20 per sealion to shoot them in the head..hell id give my summer skydiving jumps up for that. About 15yrs ago Oregon commercial fisherman for one year only paid an extra $25 for a tag tokill seals/sealions that are messing with gear. Friend of mine dropped his poles and grabbed his guns. Take that PETA. One day one of these PETA fucks will have their 2 year old child on the dock and a sealion will come up grab it and spit the child back minus the stomach... see how long they are loved then. PETA doesnt care about children though.. just ask that town in Maryland that gets flocked with starlings and kids get sick..but the moment the army was going to spray oil to dowm them the radical animal lovers stepped in. Excuse me..ASPCA not PETA.. bout the same difference

www.911missinglinks.com the definitive truth of 9/11..the who and why, not how

You can handle the TRUTH www.theforbiddentruth.net

[kelpdiver 2]

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the salmon are being endangerede by the california sea lions.. actually the whole Norhtwest had been endangered by Californians, seals and humans, screw up there state and move here and raise our property values...

whew! what a rant! But funny too.

I've heard about the sea lion problem, but it's just another effect of the state of the coastal fisheries. Down here the dams have drastically limited the spawning grounds. The only good thing with salmon is the life cycle is pretty short.

[bloody_trauma 2]

who wants to go eat a bucket of chicken outside the offices of PETA with me?

fuckin hippies

Fly it like you stole it

[freeflybella 0]

christ...what do you say to that?

I guess, if I were faced with human suffering and tragedy on a daily basis it might piss me off to come across a thread about animal rights.

There are so many ways to make this world a better place, thanks for your contribution. Sincerely.

It's not much, but I'm trying to do my part, too.

Yeah, I guess I am a fuckin' hippie.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[livetofall 0]

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who wants to go eat a bucket of chicken outside the offices of PETA with me?

fuckin hippies

Im with ya brother! Actually i was thinking more about bring the axe and stump too, nothing funnier than watching that hen fly in the air with no head, do it at the right time and that white shirt hippie can have a new tie-dye.

www.911missinglinks.com the definitive truth of 9/11..the who and why, not how

You can handle the TRUTH www.theforbiddentruth.net

[micro 0]

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who wants to go eat a bucket of chicken outside the offices of PETA with me?

fuckin hippies

Im with ya brother! Actually i was thinking more about bring the axe and stump too, nothing funnier than watching that hen fly in the air with no head, do it at the right time and that white shirt hippie can have a new tie-dye.

wouldn't that reduce you to the level of the "PETA scum" you loath so?

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[PLFXpert 0]

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Salmon is threatened, but more by the daming of rivers than anything else. (and farmed salmon tastes like crap)

Wooo-hooo! We agree on something (sort of)!

Of course, my concern regarding farmed-salmon is not the taste...but well..I'm just so excited we agree I'll let that little detail slide.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[PLFXpert 0]

There are humane ways to control sea lion/seal populations. I briefly touched on that earlier in this thread (but b/c it's off the original topic of free-range I did not dive into the full solution).

Your post, however, is far too discombobulated for further response.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.