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debonair

Human Shields

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Until there has been an inquest into the conduct of Isreal should we not refrain from declaring Isreal guilty of having deliberately targetted civilians? We do not know for sure that it was intentional.



Why would we want to do that? This is SC, here is is cool to say stuff like: KILL THEM ALL and FUCKINGH TOWELHEADS, or all muslims are terrorists or any statements along those lines. Might as well do the same to Israelis.... :P



You missed the bit about "glass parking lot"....
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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>that's exactly what you did when you said "both sides use civilians."

Both sides do, in fact, use civilians. If that's considered criminal, and the soldiers involved are arrested, great - that would be good news. It does not change the fact that it happened. Hopefully it will not happen in the future (on either side.)

>it is very different from waging your entire war dressed as a civilian,
>from a civilian home and behind civilians hoping they'll get hurt.

It's what we did during the Revolutionary War, because we were greatly outgunned. We won so it was OK. (Heck, we partly invented guerilla warfare!) If Israel were in the same situation, they would do whatever they had to do to win. They have the luxury of being able to win without such tactics, and up until recently I applauded them for showing restraint in their use of their military.

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>that's exactly what you did when you said "both sides use civilians."

Both sides do, in fact, use civilians. If that's considered criminal, and the soldiers involved are arrested, great - that would be good news. It does not change the fact that it happened. Hopefully it will not happen in the future (on either side.)


and yet, you are still comparing a single incident that might or might not have even happened (excuse me, but too many serious accusations that proved to be false were made in the past) to a standard method of operation.

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If Israel were in the same situation, they would do whatever they had to do to win.


Israel WAS in that situation.
it all depends on what is "winning". Israel "winning" means it can live in peace so when the time to make a choice came it chose to set up a state on part of the land rather than fighting and dying for all of it.
If the palestinians' goal was to live in peace they could have started to build their state in Gaza and i can promise you that if that experiment worked, the west bank would have soon followed.
"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

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>Killing doesn't work; that's been proven over the last 40 years or so. Genocide might "work" in that there will be no one left to fight. I think we can all agree that's not an option. I'm starting to think that tearing down the wall is the one option that may work. Dissolve the borders; make it one country again.



Now that's an interesting thought. But who should decide that the wall should come down and it should be one country again? What if Israel resists the idea? Should we resort to war to force them to comply? Will the Palestinians accept a shared land?

Unfortunately I would disagree with you that killing does in fact work. It's why we are unable to establish a secure government in Iraq. It's the threat of killing that keeps economically insignificant countries like North Korea part of global politics. For Hezbolah it's put them back into the center of politics in Lebanon during a time when their influence should be on the decline.

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>Unfortunately I would disagree with you that killing does in fact work.

I assume you mean that killing does work.

>It's why we are unable to establish a secure government in Iraq.

Right. But that's an example of killing _not_ working. We've killed more than anyone else in Iraq; hasn't gotten us a secure government yet.

>It's the threat of killing that keeps economically insignificant countries
>like North Korea part of global politics.

Ah, but the THREAT of killing is what works there. It's what kept us alive during the Cold War, and it's why militaries are a good deterrent.

>For Hezbolah it's put them back into the center of politics in Lebanon
>during a time when their influence should be on the decline.

Had Israel ignored them, they would now _be_ on the decline. Keep in mind that this war was started by the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers. Since then the actions of both sides have led to the deaths of hundreds.

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> I assume you mean that killing does work.

Yes

>Right. But that's an example of killing _not_ working. We've killed more than anyone else in Iraq; hasn't gotten us a secure government yet.

I meant it's working for the insurgents.


>Ah, but the THREAT of killing is what works there. It's what kept us alive during the Cold War, and it's why militaries are a good deterrent.

Agreed

>Had Israel ignored them, they would now _be_ on the decline. Keep in mind that this war was started by the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers. Since then the actions of both sides have led to the deaths of hundreds.



Also agreed .

[:/]

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>I meant it's working for the insurgents.

They want us out. Yet our numbers keep growing as violence increases. Wouldn't that mean they are failing too?

As long as the killing continues, neither side will win. The best we could possibly hope for is a significant reduction in violence. Then we can leave and let the Iraqi government make their own decisions concerning such issues. The insurgents will win _and_ we will have accomplished our revised goals. (Well, one of them, anyway.)

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Had Israel ignored them, they would now _be_ on the decline


Israel Has ignored them and indeed following Israel's pull out of lebanon 6 years ago, Hezbollah's main reason to exist was no more.
not wanting to disappear, Hezbollah started attacking Israel for no good reason. once it was the shabaa farm area, then it was "to help our palestinian brothers" and so on
all of that while arming to the teeth with thousands of rockets, building fortifications and shooting every now and then just to remind us that they are there
there is so much you can ignore...
"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

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Had Israel ignored them, they would now _be_ on the decline. Keep in mind that this war was started by the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers. Since then the actions of both sides have led to the deaths of hundreds.



PURE BS bill!!>:(

Hezbolla (and Iran) and only Hezbolla can take the blame for what is going on over there.


Hezbolla states very clearly that they do not think Isreal should exist. That Isreal should be destroyed. They also know that they can't win a conventional war against Isreal or the US so they count on the media and people who think as you to raise enough of a media stink to win it that way.
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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>>Since then the actions of both sides have led to the deaths of hundreds.

>PURE BS bill!!

Lebanese dead - 518 (as of Mon) by Israeli attacks
Israeli dead - 51 (as of Mon) by Hezbollah rocket attacks



What is the point Bill, that the Israelis are better at warfare? if that is what youre saying, I agree.

I surely hope you don't think that equal death tolls make a civilized conflict.

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>What is the point Bill, that the Israelis are better at warfare? if that
>is what youre saying, I agree.

They are many times better; they are better supported, trained and armed.

>I surely hope you don't think that equal death tolls make a civilized conflict.

A civilized conflict is one that is played out in courtrooms, UN assemblies, government buildings and the world market. A civilized conflict has angry rhetoric, not dead kids.

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>>Since then the actions of both sides have led to the deaths of hundreds.

>PURE BS bill!!

Lebanese dead - 518 (as of Mon) by Israeli attacks
Israeli dead - 51 (as of Mon) by Hezbollah rocket attacks



refer to my other post........
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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