Which is more destructive?

[bertusgeert 1]

Which is more destructive (on a global scale)?

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As jy dom is moet jy bloei!

[Lefty 0]

Communism. No individual ownership of land means no one takes any personal responsibility about its upkeep or use. Look up "Tragedy of the Commons" on google.

Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful.
-Calvin

[Dancergirl 0]

and capitalism is raping the land anyway

[lawrocket 3]

Hmmm. It's tough to say, considering that we haven't had any true communist or true capitalist system - just systems based upon them. But I'll try.

Human Suffering
Now,you can't really point to wars between the two to see which is worse, since sides are usually good at killing each other.

But, I'll look at the communist places, like the USSR, China, etc.

Stalin killed at least 20,000,000.
Mao's purges killed at least 40,000,000 Chinese.
Let's not forget the 2 million Tibetans the Chinese killed.

Pol Pot killed 1-2 million in Cambodia.

Another 400,000 or so in Vietnam after the US pullout, and another 100,000 or so in Laos.

Let's not forget the present situation in North Korea.

Now, to the capitalist side, there are other problems with human life. When human life is worth less than the dollar, you'll have problems. Hence, we saw all kinds of problems in the workplace, etc., that were likely the same as those seen in communist governments.

We also had problems with colonial rule, that probably resuted i several million deaths, including Indians, American Indians, and Africans. We should include the slave trade in that, as well.

Still, I think that on the whole, capitalist systems are generally less destructive to human life.

I don't have time to go into further issues, like environment or other policies.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Nightingale 0]

Communism. Takes away personal responsibility. Communism works great when you've got a small community and everyone buys into the system, does their share, and shares what they have. it doesn't work on a large scale. You end up sacrificing both personal freedom and property without having any choice.

Capitalism is a system that thrives on personal responsibility. The problem is that many people don't want to be responsible for themselves. They want the government to pay for their food, medical care, childcare, etc. Most capitalist societies do have programs for people who are down on their luck. When people start to depend on those programs rather than on themselves is when we run into problems.

[billvon 2,434]

Destructive to what? The environment/the planet? Capitalism. To people's financial health? Communism. Countries? Communism.

[freethefly 6]

Communism does not work because of greed.
Capitalism, on the otherhand, does, because of greed.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[Dancergirl 0]

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Communism does not work because of greed.
Capitalism, on the otherhand, does, because of greed.

why so scared then?

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAmccarthyism.htm

[freethefly 6]

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why so scared then?

Scared of what? Please elaborate.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[Dancergirl 0]

communism

[freethefly 6]

Not at all afraid of communism.
Communism might have flourished if not for the greed of its leaders. There are no avenues for wealth distribution amongst the people.
The wealth that is generated by capitalism is available to the people via stock purchase and other investment avenues. Companies grow due to the desire of the people involved to have more. Sadly, some of those involved think that they deserve it all ( Ken Lay and his band of crooks come to mind ).

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[StreetScooby 5]

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communism

We're not scared of communism. We've already won

We are all engines of karma

[SpeedRacer 1]

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Destructive to what? The environment/the planet? Capitalism

right. Communist countries have SUCH a good record of protecting the environment.

Speed Racer
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[bertusgeert 1]

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Communism does not work because of greed.
Capitalism, on the otherhand, does, because of greed.

Thanks Mr. Gekko.
Destructive to what? Well, that depends on your values - what you value, and that is different for everyone.
Europeans evidently value progress, while Africans evidently value the circular process of life - tommorow is another day.

My answer to that would be: an accumulation of all of those - a quality human life firstly, the earth we live on secondly (because it sustains human life), animals, etc.

Sometimes I am quite outraged at the pro-capitalistic propaganda that we see everywhere - not just the media. Capitalism is quite problematic as well, and anyone that thinks we are operating on the principles of our all so great founding fathers are quite mistaken - rewrite those high school slanted history/government books please.

You see those commies in russia, and say: "poor people that have to suffer under a system that feeds them nothing but their own retoric". Well, (to a certain extent), the same exact thing is going on here.

Raise the standard of living and all of a sudden the masses stop caring - they just want to be happy. We look at protesters and say "You gd hippies! Get off the streets and do something useful". Little to the people of the Democracy realize that it is not only their RIGHT to protest, but it is their civil DUTY to care - to protest if they do not agree. Democracy relies on your opinion!

There is a quote that hits home pretty well:Corruption? Corruption is government intrusion into market efficiencies in the form of regulations. That's Milton Friedman. He got a goddamn Nobel Prize. We have laws against it precisely so we can get away with it. Corruption is our protection. Corruption keeps us safe and warm. Corruption is why you and I are prancing around in here instead of fighting over scraps of meat out in the streets. Corruption is why we win.

When a friend that works at a law firm for the summer is told straigtht up: "we take care of two parking tickets for the summer" - at such a low and insignificant level - what more do you think is happening when BILLIONS of dollars are at stake?



We have to draw a distinction between the idealistic communism and capitalism and the practical realistic communism and capitalism. Practically, Communism was much more destructive. Because of Capitalism - American citizens are able to freely donate BILLIONS of dollars every year to whichever good cause they wish to. And they do when there is a need. But, because of capitalism, BILLIONS are suffering in poverty, caught in an endless debt that has them entangled in a dependence on the U.S. govt.

I would love to write more, but I don't have the time. Maybe one day. I just wish everyone could see the truth (including me that is).

Now, I have to go to bed. It's 1:38 and I drank a wee bit too much...

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As jy dom is moet jy bloei!

[nanook 1]

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There is a quote that hits home pretty well:Corruption? Corruption is government intrusion into market efficiencies in the form of regulations. That's Milton Friedman. He got a goddamn Nobel Prize. We have laws against it precisely so we can get away with it. Corruption is our protection. Corruption keeps us safe and warm. Corruption is why you and I are prancing around in here instead of fighting over scraps of meat out in the streets. Corruption is why we win

I don't undersand what you are saying here. Are you saying corruption as the definition we are all familiar with is healthy? Or are you saying government intervention, as definition of corruption, is healthy?

Seems to me the purpose of that quote is to fight off the Keynesian way of thinking of govt intervention of the Market. The kind of thing Margret thatcher and Reagan was correcting during the eighties.

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"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

[Hawkins121 0]

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Which is more destructive (on a global scale)?

No offense sir (Especially since I'm fresh off a ban) but I dont think you understand the question you are asking. Its difficult to compare which is more destructive.. And what kind of communism are you talking about? There are several different kinds.

Socialism is an ok thing as long as the ideology is used moderately. It is all over europe and you can see it in our country as well. Many people in this country think we should have centralized health care and government assistance for the poor people. They also think it is ok to take more money from the rich to redistribute it to the poor. (Tax brackets)

anyway... My point is there is no answer to your question. You are going to have to be more specific. The 2 forms of government you asked about have to many ideologies that fall under them. There are just to many ways to interpret them.

[Hawkins121 0]

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and capitalism is raping the land anyway

Raping the land? What the hell are you talking about? Capitalist or communist humans are going to use resources. that means cutting down trees, slaughtering some animals and drilling for oil. If you think giving up freedom to pursue what you want is going to save a few trees or stop some species in the rain forest from going extinct then you are naive. and I dont mean that as an insult...

It would be nice if life were like Fern Gully though.

[Hawkins121 0]

ahhh after reading your longer post I see what is going on...

You are a college sophmore or junior that is taking (or took) intro to poly sci to get his humanities electives out of the way. Unfortunately what the prof tells you isnt necessarily gospel.

I know the class is interesting and the prof probably made some compelling arguements for communism in general. but get over it man.

Communism has killed more people than religion in the 20th century.

Well.. The more appropriate name for modern communism is Stalinsim... Thats the form of communism all the other countries that chose to be communist chose to emulate.

I know you are talking about Utopian Communism. The problem is it doesnt work.. Never has, never will. and it has nothing to do with capitalism.

Next semester when you have a new prof that tells you something different about capitalism will you be editing your posts?

[bertusgeert 1]

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ahhh after reading your longer post I see what is going on...

You are a college sophmore or junior that is taking (or took) intro to poly sci to get his humanities electives out of the way. Unfortunately what the prof tells you isnt necessarily gospel.

I know the class is interesting and the prof probably made some compelling arguements for communism in general. but get over it man.

Communism has killed more people than religion in the 20th century.

Well.. The more appropriate name for modern communism is Stalinsim... Thats the form of communism all the other countries that chose to be communist chose to emulate.

I know you are talking about Utopian Communism. The problem is it doesnt work.. Never has, never will. and it has nothing to do with capitalism.

Next semester when you have a new prof that tells you something different about capitalism will you be editing your posts?

You are dead on about the college junior part - but i'm econ/finance/int bus. and took two PS classes already, with my third next semester. I have not had a prof that is pro-communism yet. (I was born in South Africa, lived there for 13 yrs. I am now an Australian citizen and have my greencard here.) I am thus basing my opinion on three things - 1- my personal experience, 2 - my formal education and 3 - my informal education.

Ever since observing the political turmoil in Southern Africa, the U.S. (capitalistic) and underground communistic influences present in this region, I have been interested in international politics and current events.

The truth is that today, more than ever, we are living in a crazy world with world events happening at a pace faster than ever before. World population has doubled in the last 50 years, and we are nearing the earth's carrying capacity.

When we look at history, we can observe the equivalent of a soap opera taking place - in times of war and peace - a powerstruggle fueled by immense greed.

At this point in time in my life I can see the divide between the average population and the corporatocracy - the richest of the rich who rule the world. These people realize how the world truly works - they make the deals and they start the wars.

I have not heard one person who can give me a convincing argument as to why exactly the U.S. wanted to go into Iraq. No one has been able to tell my why Rumsfeld, Powel, Rice, Bush - all of them outright lied to not only the American population, but the world. They had reason. No one knows what it is but them.

Capitalism has certainly enabled the U.S. to be extremely powerful and influential and multiple arenas - something that communism was not quite so capable of. But this should not be the judging criteria. Capitalism has also, although in a much more subltle manner, destroyed many lives.

I absolutely agree that there is a vast difference between theory and implementation. Adam Smith might have had noble intentions, but he was the father of a vicious, ravenous steamroller. Karl Marx just wanted the borgoise to stop their powerplay and create an equal playing field, but he was the father of and evil and unthinkably cruel governmental system. This happened for one reason only - the incredibly selfish nature of man, let loose on a playground of incredible potential - the potential for the creation of great wealth and a better standard of living, but also the potential for great destruction and downfall.

Through reading more and more, whether it be The Economist, Business Weekly, Forbes, The Wall Street Journal, or an array of books on my shelf - I am being awakened to the true evils in this world - and I am outraged.

I am doing my utmost to educate myself and find the truth - to not be deceived by the myriad of corporations, politicians, executives, and other people who would love to see you complacently deceived.

I started this argument for that reason, to gain a perspective of the innocently ignorant as well as the enlightened. I want to learn more - thats why. So keep it coming.

*Nope, I will not come back and edit this. I have, and will continue to, say many stupid things on these forums. But i have learned something from almost all of them, and intend to continue doing so. I am learning and growing and it is fun to go back and see how stupid I was once upon a time.

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As jy dom is moet jy bloei!

[nanook 1]

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*Nope, I will not come back and edit this. I have, and will continue to, say many stupid things on these forums. But i have learned something from almost all of them, and intend to continue doing so. I am learning and growing and it is fun to go back and see how stupid I was once upon a time

Now that's a very good attitude. it's very refreshing to read it. I have a similar educational background, except I am already a graduate and now persuing a Masters in Finance. For the future, always read stuff with a grain of salt. Especially magazines and bestsellers. When I saw you use the phrase "Coporatocracy", it reminds of a book I am reading now called "confessions of an economic hitman". It's written for the aluminium-foil-hat audience and favored by groups that look for any type of excuse to scream conspiracy. If you haven't read it, I recommend it. At least to understand how much people don't know about things and willing to take any "common sense" that passes their way.

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"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln