Marine MasSacre

[freethefly 6]

Iraq to probe US massacre claims

The official US version differs widely from that of locals and the media
Iraq will investigate allegations that US marines carried out a massacre of civilians in Haditha in November, the country's prime minister has said.
Nouri Maliki told Reuters news agency there was "a limit to the acceptable excuses" for civilian casualties.

The Pentagon is close to ending its own inquiries into the deaths, initially attributed to a clash with militants.

Observers say the incident could deal a more serious blow to US standing than the Abu Ghraib scandal.

It is not justifiable that a family is killed because someone is fighting terrorists

Nouri Maliki
Iraqi prime minister

According to initial US military reports, 15 civilians and eight insurgents died after a bomb killed a marine in Haditha, a militant stronghold in Anbar Province.

The civilians were "victims of a wrong operation", Mr Maliki said in a separate interview with the BBC.

"It is not justifiable that a family is killed because someone is fighting terrorists."

Speaking to Reuters, he said his government was worried by "the increase in 'mistakes'" and would ask "for answers not only about Haditha but about any operation... in which killing happened by mistake".

"We will hold those who did it responsible," he added.

The BBC's Justin Webb reports from Washington that enough material has now been leaked to the US media about events in Haditha to suggest to many Americans that allegations of a massacre are very serious and may well be true.

'Cold blood'

US investigators are looking at both the actual events in Haditha on 19 November and an alleged cover-up by troops.


Haditha has seen regular deadly attacks on US troops

The military said at the time that the civilians were killed as a result of either the bomb or a gun battle which erupted afterwards, in which the militants were reportedly killed.

But reports from Iraqi witnesses and in the US media allege that marines went on a rampage.

According to the Wall St Journal, there is evidence that marines killed civilians, including women and children, without provocation.

Several marines are likely to be charged with murder and others with attempting to cover up the incident, the newspaper said, quoting civilian and military officials close to the investigations.

One of the marines in Haditha that day, Lance Cpl Roel Ryan Briones of Hanford, California, told the Los Angeles Times he had taken photos and carried bodies out of homes as part of a clean-up crew:

"They ranged from little babies to adult males and females. I'll never be able to get that out of my head. I can still smell the blood."

Caution plea

John Murtha, a Democratic Congressman and former marine, has said he believes civilians in Haditha were murdered and the incident was covered up.

"They killed innocent civilians in cold blood and that's what the report is going to tell," he said.

"It is as bad as Abu Ghraib, if not worse," he told CNN television.

Gen Peter Pace, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and chief military adviser to the US president, said on Monday it would be premature for him to judge the outcome of the investigations.

"If the allegations as they are being portrayed in the newspapers turn out to be valid, then of course there'll be charges," he said.

"We'll get to the bottom of the investigation and take the appropriate action."


The more that is revealed the worst it looks. Other reports show that this is not an isolated incident and that civilians are often targets.
Going into Iraq is the worst thing the US has ever done in the ENTIRE history of the US. This "war" has created even more hatred towards the US. We are NOT viewed as "liberators" but as war-mongering bullies who will stop at nothing to force others to kneel and kiss the feet of the US government. The US has shown that it is not a peace loving country but a country bent on forcing it's war loving ideology on others. Haditha and all the other deaths by the hands of the US soilders and by the hands of insurgents would not have came about if not for the misguided leadership (what leadership?) of the US.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[Andy_Copland 0]

In this war you get people firing at soldiers and melting into the background in civilian clothes. If they cant follow the Geneva convention why the fuck should the British or Americans.

A society raised in violence can only understand violence.

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[kallend 1,651]

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In this war you get people firing at soldiers and melting into the background in civilian clothes. If they cant follow the Geneva convention why the fuck should the British or Americans.

A society raised in violence can only understand violence.

WELL! When the WMD stories and claimed OBL connections turned out to be false (aka lies), our wonderful governments changed their justification for invading and occupying a sovereign nation to freeing it from tyranny.

Don't you think it behooves those who claim to be the "white hats" to behave like good guys?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Andy_Copland 0]

Where did i mention that it was good or just to invade Iraq? Or made any claims about Bush's lies?

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[kallend 1,651]

Quote

Where did i mention that it was good or just to invade Iraq? Or made any claims about Bush's lies?

No-one said you did. I answered your question about WHY we should obey the Geneva conventions.

Feeling sensitive, are we?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Andy_Copland 0]

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Feeling sensitive, are we?

Whatever floats your boat.

Im simply stating that a country like Iraq has been under a dictatorship for so long that diplomicy wont work, we should of left saddam in charge. At least he kept them under control.

If i was them Marines i'd of pulled out and levelled 20 square miles of the place where it happened. Then i bet they'd think twice.

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[freethefly 6]

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If they cant follow the Geneva convention why the fuck should the British or Americans.

***Where did i mention that it was good or just to invade Iraq? Or made any claims about Bush's lies?

Quote

You didn't, but if the US fails to follow the rules to the letter then the US is far more guilty than those who completely ignore the rules. The US attacked Iraq, they did not attack us, nor did they in any way provoke us. By invading, killing the people and completely destroying what they had makes the US the greater evil. Nothing good has been accomplished. Nothing. I am so sick and tired of hearing people say that we need to revenge the deaths of our fallen soilders. So this is what is has become - a blood bath not to promote peace and democracy but to get revenge for a dead soilder who would not had died if not for the lies and bravado of an out of control madman, George W. Bush. Is this "war" worth killing thousands more to get revenge for a soilder who died for nothing? Is it worth the deaths of thousands of men, women and children to defend the lies and the cover ups of an administration whose sole goal is millitary rule in the middle east. It is appearant that this administration believes so.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

• Quote

[Andy_Copland 0]

The best part is i dont think we have any right being there. But the sad fact is that we are.

I dont know what its like in America but British soldiers are scared to shoot people in fear of being prosecuted by civilian courts! its a joke.

Edit: Spelling

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[freethefly 6]

Quote

If i was them Marines i'd of pulled out and levelled 20 square miles of the place where it happened. Then i bet they'd think twice.

It is this kind of mindset that shows that we are not there for a good purpose (were we ever?) but solely to flex a muscle and to kill anyone who disagrees with the current administration.
Exactly what good would killing every human within a 20 sq. mile radius do. Hell, the majority of Iraqis hate Americans already, why not just get them all onboard against the US.
The US needs to start backing out of Iraq. The bloodshed would, most likely, trickle down and eventually stop in short time after the US leaves. Let them rule themselves and take care of themselves. US forces are the cause of the majority of grief in Iraq today. If they were not there, these things would not be happening. Instead of a dwindle down in troop force the government is sending more and more cases like Haditha are sure to follow. The US has damaged its reputation beyond repair.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[Andy_Copland 0]

Instead every little group would be killing each other for power (like they are). As i said, i dont think we should be there but while we are i think that making sure they know the risks of killing a soldier can only be a good thing. Their hate for America is strong enough already so bollocks to being nice.

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[freethefly 6]

Quote

I dont know what its like in America but British soldiers are scared to shoot people in fear of being prosecuted by civilian courts! its a joke.

Any soldier who purposely kills an innocent civilian should be tried and punished by the courts of the country in which the murder took place. Just by being a soldier should not give them any protection from the law. Soldier is just a word and nothing more. If these men and women kill an innocent person then they are nothing more than a murderer hiding behind the word soldier. They do a great disservice to the men and women who stand proudly in front of the word soldier and do the right thing by not commiting acts of murder.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[Andy_Copland 0]

Im not talking about murder, im specifically thinking about a person who was carrying weapons in a cart. Yet they still got to get dragged through the courts.

Edit: Innocent people do not deserve to die but that is War. Also a lot of "innocent" people know and shelter would be attackers and attackers. This kind of scenario is highly stressful and complicated. So i can easily sympothise with these marines

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[freethefly 6]

Quote

Instead every little group would be killing each other for power (like they are). As i said, i dont think we should be there but while we are i think that making sure they know the risks of killing a soldier can only be a good thing. Their hate for America is strong enough already so bollocks to being nice.

Good reason to pull out and put Saddam back in power. He may be a tyrant but at least the country was intact and the people safe.
This war and its reason for being is as insane as the man who started it.
And now with Iran, Saddam would had been the best allied to have. Given his hatred for Iran.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[Andy_Copland 0]

You've prooved my point, they only understand violence.

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[freethefly 6]

The Iraqi people knew the value of not "toeing the line" under Saddam. Fuck up, pay the price. It was their law and it worked. The US had no business changing that. Bush can say all he wants about how oppressive Saddam was and it makes no sense, seeing that the US has the world largest prison population (and growing daily), the most draconian laws, a love for the death penalty, secret operations to extract private personal information on its citizens to be used against them for any reason, and the list can go on forever. In a way, living under the Federal government is far worst than under Saddams rule. At least under Saddam they knew where they stood.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[Trent 0]

Quote

The more that is revealed the worst it looks. Other reports show that this is not an isolated incident and that civilians are often targets.
Going into Iraq is the worst thing the US has ever done in the ENTIRE history of the US. This "war" has created even more hatred towards the US. We are NOT viewed as "liberators" but as war-mongering bullies who will stop at nothing to force others to kneel and kiss the feet of the US government. The US has shown that it is not a peace loving country but a country bent on forcing it's war loving ideology on others. Haditha and all the other deaths by the hands of the US soilders and by the hands of insurgents would not have came about if not for the misguided leadership (what leadership?) of the US.

From your other conversations in this thread... I think you need to calm down on the rhetoric a bit. In THIS specific situation, step back and ask yourself why a bunch of bloodthirsty, marauding, Marines would leave survivors that would implicate them in this "massacre?" Why would they do that if they're the heartless murderers people are claiming? Doesn't make one lick of sense.

Now, ask yourself, "If I was an Iraqi terrorist... how could I get publicity, kill a few Americans, and make the US look terrible in one fell swoop?" Would, "Let's hide behind women and kids so that they get killed when we attack," or "Let's kill some women and kids and make it look like they did it," or "let's convince some women and families to detonate IED's and shoot at troops when they come by, then claim massacre when they get killed," be an answer?

Like I said, anything is possible and PLENTY of people have reason to WANT this to really be a massacre. Throwing your hat into the ring of convicting these boys before any trials... is pure and plain ignorance.

Oh, hello again!

[skydyvr 0]

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. . . and the list can go on forever.

That's because fantasyland, where most of your political ideas reside, has no limits. Once you've abandoned reason and reality, you're free to think whatever comes to mind.

Case in point: ". . . living under the Federal government is far worst than under Saddams rule."

Not just worse, but FAR worse, in your opinion. Sweeeeet.

. . =(_8^(1)

[miked10270 0]

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Something smells like shit with this whole story.

Right now, I see 2 possibilities:

1. These Marines went nuts...

2. This is a setup to further tarnish the US and the dead were either fighting, purposely put in a crossfire by the real bad guys, or killed prior to the troops' arrival.

I'll go for #2!

One of the things which leapt out at me was the fact that there in the piss-poor village the Marines had murdered their way through, there just happened to be a "Journalism Student" who was fortunate to have possession of a broadcast-quality video camera, along with the knowledge and the means to send it to news channels!

Now... I appreciate that their culture is different, but this stuff isn't exactly thick on the ground in our poorer areas which haven't been blockaded for 13 years.

I suspect that the publicity machine of the insurgency was VERY handy at the time of the "massacre" and shot a typically impartial video.

As Miles Copeland (Police Drummer Stuart Copelend's Dad) once said: "Listen to what someone's saying, Then work out WHY they're saying it."

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[freethefly 6]

There is ample proof that this did (sadly) in fact happen. The were foolish enough to take pictures and video. I am not convicting them, they are convicting themselves. There are outside observers who witnessed the killings. Children have recounted the event that took place. Other soldiers have come forward. It does not look good for the triggermen and those who tried to cover it up. Of the thousands who are doing good it is the few who do wrong that keeps everything in reverse.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[warpedskydiver 0]

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Something smells like shit with this whole story.

Right now, I see 2 possibilities:

1. These Marines went nuts and killed everyone they saw, but had a sudden change of heart and shipped a handful of their "victims" to a hospital, knowing they were witnesses to this "massacre."

2. This is a setup to further tarnish the US and the dead were either fighting, purposely put in a crossfire by the real bad guys, or killed prior to the troops' arrival.

I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt for case #1... I don't think that our Marines are that bloodthirsty, or at a minimum... stupid enough to not finish off any "witnesses".

Anything's possible I guess... but something stinks bad.

I think you have pointed out one terrible fact.

Those that assume, want, or accept all the charges to be true, without being presented evidence in a court of law, believe that a few US Marines would not have finished off every person in that house and several surrounding neighborhoods if they had chosen to.

something is very fishy

I mean WTF? they would kill a dozen or two innocents, but would not finish the job or at least do a thorough cleansing?

Any dolt could have covered their asses

[Royd 0]

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Also a lot of "innocent" people know and shelter would be attackers and attackers. This kind of scenario is highly stressful and complicated. So i can easily sympothise with these marines

I agree with that statment. Silience is complicity. There is no way that much activity can go on without "innocent" bystanders not seeing something.
When some mother or father is tired of their children's lives being threatened on a daily basis, and picks up an AK47 and starts blowing away some terrorists, then things will start to change.

[sfc 0]

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something is very fishy

I mean WTF? they would kill a dozen or two innocents, but would not finish the job or at least do a thorough cleansing?

Any dolt could have covered their asses

I can see it now,

Your honor, it can't have been me, I'm too smart to be caught doing anything bad.

Great defense, you should be an attorney.

[Gravitymaster 0]

From The Guardian

Omer Mahdi in Haditha and Rory Carroll in Baghdad
Monday August 22, 2005

The executions are carried out at dawn on Haqlania bridge, the entrance to Haditha. A small crowd usually turns up to watch even though the killings are filmed and made available on DVD in the market the same afternoon.

One of last week’s victims was a young man in a black tracksuit. Like the others he was left on his belly by the blue iron railings at the bridge’s southern end. His severed head rested on his back, facing Baghdad. Children cheered when they heard that the next day’s spectacle would be a double bill: two decapitations. A man named Watban and his brother had been found guilty of spying.

With so many alleged American agents dying here Haqlania bridge was renamed Agents’ bridge. Then a local wag dubbed it Agents’ fridge, evoking a mortuary, and that name has stuck.
A three-day visit by a reporter working for the Guardian last week established what neither the Iraqi government nor the US military has admitted: Haditha, a farming town of 90,000 people by the Euphrates river, is an insurgent citadel.

That Islamist guerrillas were active in the area was no secret but only now has the extent of their control been revealed. They are the sole authority, running the town’s security, administration and communications.

A three-hour drive north from Baghdad, under the nose of an American base, it is a miniature Taliban-like state. Insurgents decide who lives and dies, which salaries get paid, what people wear, what they watch and listen to.

Haditha exposes the limitations of the Iraqi state and US power on the day when the political process is supposed to make a great leap - a draft constitution finalised and approved by midnight tonight.

For politicians and diplomats in Baghdad’s fortified green zone the constitution is a means to stabilise Iraq and woo Sunni Arabs away from the rebellion. For Haditha, 140 miles north-west of the capital, whether a draft is agreed is irrelevant. Residents already have a set of laws and rules promulgated by insurgents.
Within minutes of driving into town the Guardian was stopped by a group of men and informed about rule number one: announce yourself. The mujahideen, as they are known locally, must know who comes and goes.

The Guardian reporter did not say he worked for a British newspaper. For their own protection interviewees cannot be named.

There is no fighting here because there is no one to challenge the Islamists. The police station and municipal offices were destroyed last year and US marines make only fleeting visits every few months.

Two groups share power. Ansar al-Sunna is a largely homegrown organisation, though its leader in Haditha is said to be foreign. Al-Qaida in Iraq, known locally by its old name Tawhid al-Jihad, is led by the Jordanian-born Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. There was a rumour that Zarqawi, Washington’s most wanted militant after Osama bin Laden, visited early last week. True or not, residents wanted to believe they had hosted such a celebrity.

A year ago Haditha was just another sleepy town in western Anbar province, deep in the Sunni triangle and suspicious of the Shia-led government in Baghdad but no insurgent hotbed.

Then, say residents, arrived mostly Shia police with heavyhanded behaviour. "That’s how it began," said one man. Attacks against the police escalated until they fled, creating a vacuum filled by insurgents.

Alcohol and music deemed un-Islamic were banned, women were told to wear headscarves and relations between the sexes were closely monitored. The mobile phone network was shut down but insurgents retained their walkie-talkies and satellite phones. Right-hand lanes are reserved for their vehicles.
From attacks on US and Iraqi forces it is clear that other Anbar towns, such as Qaim, Rawa, Anna and Ramadi, are to varying degrees under the sway of rebels.

In Haditha hospital staff and teachers are allowed to collect government salaries in Ramadi, the capital of Anbar, but other civil servants have had to quit.

Last year the US trumpeted its rehabilitation of a nearby power plant: "The incredible progress at Haditha is just one example of the huge strides made by the US army corps of engineers."

Now insurgents earn praise from residents for allegedly pressuring managers to supply electricity almost 24 hours a day, a luxury denied the rest of Iraq.

The court caters solely for divorces and marriages. Alleged criminals are punished in the market. The Guardian witnessed a headmaster accused of adultery whipped 190 times with cables. Children laughed as he sobbed and his robe turned crimson.

Two men who robbed a foreign exchange shop were splayed on the ground. Masked men stood on their hands while others broke their arms with rocks. The shopkeeper offered the insurgents a reward but they declined.

DVDs of beheadings on the bridge are distributed free in the souk. Children prefer them to cartoons. "They should not watch such things," said one grandfather, but parents appeared not to object.

One DVD features a young, blond muscular man who had been disembowelled. He was said to have been a member of a six-strong US sniper team ambushed and killed on August 1. Residents said he had been paraded in town before being executed.

The US military denied that, saying six bodies were recovered and that all appeared to have died in combat. Shortly after the ambush three landmines killed 14 marines in a convoy which ventured from their base outside the town.

Twice in recent months marines backed by aircraft and armour swept into Haditha to flush out the rebels. In a pattern repeated across Anbar there were skirmishes, a few suspects killed or detained, and success was declared.

In reality, said residents, the insurgents withdrew for a few days and returned when the Americans left. They have learned from last November’s battle in Falluja, when hundreds died fighting the marines and still lost the city.

Now their strategy appears to be to wait out the Americans, calculating they will leave within a few years, and then escalate what some consider the real war against a government led by Shias, a rival sect which Sunni extremists consider apostasy.

The US military declined to respond to questions detailing the extent of insurgent control in the town.
There was evidence of growing cooperation between rebels. A group in Falluja, where the resistance is said to be regrouping, wrote to Haditha requesting background checks on two volunteers from the town.
One local man in his 40s told the Guardian he wanted to be a suicide bomber to atone for sins and secure a place in heaven. "But the mujahideen will not let me. They said I had eight children and it was my duty to look after them."

Tribal elders said they feared but respected insurgents for keeping order and not turning the town into a battleground.

They appear to have been radicalised, and condemned Sunni groups, such as the Iraqi Islamic party and the Muslim Scholars’ Association, for engaging in the political process.

The constitution talks, the referendum due in October, the election due in December: all are deemed collaboration punishable by death. The task now is to bleed the Americans and destabilise the government. Some call that nihilism. Haditha calls it the future.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

An interesting perspective on the inhabitants of Haditha.


You can bet our one party media won’t be telling us much about this town in their ongoing feeding frenzy. But just remember this article when you hear the denizens of Haditha express their outrage at the "American atrocities" they claim to have witnessed.

[loumeinhart 0]

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Any soldier who purposely kills an innocent civilian should be tried and punished by the courts of the country in which the murder took place.

please define "INNOCENT CIVILIAN"

here ______________________________

thanks,
Lou

[loumeinhart 0]

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Any soldier who purposely kills an innocent civilian should be tried and punished by the courts of the country in which the murder took place.

what about if they are a guilty civilian? - what makes them guilty? What makes them innocent ???

read [url "http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,198087,00.html"] this