what the bleep do we know?

[philh 0]

-note i just moved this thread frm the bonfire to speakers corner cos I thought it was more relevant here.

I just saw the movie "What the bleep do we know?"and so apologies for being behind the times.
But I think it is very misleading film and if you read on you will see why.

First off there's one part of it I like , the rest is BS, and that is people need to take responsibilit for their actions - cool, agreed. Now the BS

1.YOU CANNOT CREATE YOUR REALITY WITH QM

First off the films main claims are that Quantum Mechanincs (QM) implies that consciousness creates reality. This is not remotely correct. Whilst the act of observation interferes with and changes an event that in no way implies a person can chose the outcome of the event. In classical physics positions and momentums are thought to be given outside of the role of the observer. In QM it is realised that in order to observe something we need to see it and that means bouncing photons off whatever we're obvserviing, these photons change the position of the particle we are obsvering. So yes our consicousness can interact with the sub atomic world in unepected ways in QM. Does that mean we can create our reality? No of course not. Just as your actions when you role the dice in a craps game determine the outcome doesnt means you can decide to role 2 6,s , snake eyes etc.

A classic thought eperiment in Qm is the Schroedingers Cat paradox. The film makers claim Qm is a science of possibilites, to some extent this is true. But not in the way they say. In this (thought) experiment a cat is placed in a box with lethal device. The device will go off and kill the cat depending upon a probabilistic QM event. In QM the act of observation collapses the wave function and turns the probabilistic event into an actual outcome.But what happens to the cat before it is observed? Now there are many interpretations of this paradox, one of which is the parralel worlds hypotheis which says before the box is opened the cat is dead in one unvierse and alive in another the act of opening the box decided which universe we are in. Another interpreation is that the reailty doesnt exist until the wave function exists.Although even in this interpretation its the act of interacting with the enviroment that collapses the wave function not necessarily the conscious act of observation. But heres the kicker, whichever interpreation you choose there is no way in QM that the observer can chose for the cat to be alive or dead and this is the main point. Just becuase an even is probablistic and has an interaction with an observer does not in any way mean the observer can determine the outcome. SO the primary message of the film is just BS. It has nothing whatsoever to do with QM.

2. QM HAS LITTLE DO WITH OUR LIVES
QM is probabilistic and classical physics is deterministic. These differences are of interest in a abstract philisophical way. But the film implies this has implication for how we live our lives. No it doesn't. At a macroscopic level the differences between QM and classical physics are as close to zero to be considered zero. For example in classical physics if you throw an object like a tennis ball at a solid wall then it will bounce back at you. IN QM things are different there is possibility that the ball will go straight through the wall. But QM tells us that whilst that it is possible it is very unlikely. I am told that the likelihood is 10 to the power 23.45 billion to 1. Thast a big number ,think 10 to the power of 2 is 100 to the power of 3 is 1000. To the power of 23.45 billion, well its never going to happen is it? For sub atomic particles, that need less energy to tunnel, and where there are large amount s of them , it can happen. But clearly the effect does not translate to the macroscopic world . So the whilst sub atomic particles might be able to do strange things it doesn not mean we can. We cant walk on water or through walls, whenever someone does its magic trick not anything to do whith QM. At the macroscopic level QM and classicla physics are effectivley the same so the whole premise of the film collapses.

3.
CELLS ARE NOT CONSCIOUSS
The film talk a lot about the brain and how thoughts are created there and then goes on to say cells are consiouss, but erm excuse me ,have you forgotten cells dont have brains? Did no one spot this huge contradiction? Perhps thats why we didnt all laugh at the chap that said he creats his own reality each day. Does he win the lottery every week? I doubt it.

4 THE NATIVE AMERICANS COULDNT SEE THE EUROPEAN SHIPS
In the film they claim the native Americans couldnt see in 1492 European ships becasue theyd never seen the ships before and therefore they hadnt created the reailty of it. Where on earth do they get this stuff from? The native Americans didnt keep written records so I suggest they just made it up. Does that mean when planes first flew no one could see them? Did no one see the IPOD nano when it was luanched? its hard to take such views seriously.

5 WATER HAS NO EMOTIONS
In the movie the claims of DR emoto are stated as facts. He claims water reacts to emotional states. he placed words sudh as love on one sample and got pretty images and negative words like hate and got ugly images. These we are told are water molecules captured by a dark field microscope. Its very important stuff since are bodies are mostly water. UHm hang on a sec. If these water images were in you body you would be dead. Why? Becuase they are not pictures of water molecules at all but ice crystals. Crystal patterns are very sensitive to their intial conditions and you can get lots of patterns. What Emoto did has neverr been reproduced by scientifc checking. indeed James Randi has said his conclusion would qualify for his $1m prize(for anyone who proves the supernatural) if they could be, but suprise suprise Dr emoto doesnt want the $1m. Real science double blinds expermients. Dr Emoto doesnt't.

6 THE POWER OF THOUGHT DIDNT REDUCE THE DC CRIME WAVE
The movie tells us about a bunch of of Transcedental MEditationists(TM) who reduced the crime wave by 25%(although the authors of the study claimed 18%) in DC in 1993 by meditating. In fact this "reduction" was in comparison with what the TM chaps projected the crime rate would have been wihtout them. The actual cirme rate was up.

THE PEOPLE BEHIND THE MOVIE
Well there are some respectable scientist here for example David Albert of Columbia UNi this is what we had to say about it:
"I was edited in such a way as to completely suppress my actual views about the matters the movie discusses. I am, indeed, profoundly unsympathetic to attempts at linking quantum mechanics with consciousness. Moreover, I explained all that, at great length, on camera, to the producers of the film ... Had I known that I would have been so radically misrepresented in the movie, I would certainly not have agreed to be filmed."

Many of the other talking heads are part of a cult group called the Ramtha School of enlightment. Did you wonder who the woman with the blonde hair and the red top was? If you stayed for the end of the movie you will see she is listed as Ramtha channeled by JZ Knight. Ramtha is supposed 35,000 year old being from Atlantis who is channeled by this woman to give us wisdom. Still sound lik science? In fact this film is financed and created by memebers of this cult as a subtle advert. I suggest we don't buy their product.

[niolosoiale 0]

Like you, there was very little I liked about the movie.

The movie had some serious credibility issues. There were some neat ideas, but a lot of it was just that, ideas, and not very good ones.

[storm1977 0]

I found the movie very entertaining.... However, some of the information given in the movie had no factual basis as it related to reality...

I found it amazing, that some of these "Experts" and PHDs would even want their name associated with some of these crazy hypothesis.

What was said about QP was true, but how the realities of QP related to our lives is anyones guess. Sure it is true that multiple states of being and placement exist in QP, no unifying theory or connection to regualr Synoptic physics has ever been made....

Mostly entertainment... that is what the movie was.
Someone who took too much acid and came up with some far fetched ideas

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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[hairyjuan 0]

Quote

I found the movie very entertaining.... However, some of the information given in the movie had no factual basis as it related to reality...

I found it amazing, that some of these "Experts" and PHDs would even want their name associated with some of these crazy hypothesis.

What was said about QP was true, but how the realities of QP related to our lives is anyones guess.


Sure it is true that multiple states of being and placement exist in QP, no unifying theory or connection to regualr Synoptic physics has ever been made....

Mostly entertainment... that is what the movie was.
Someone who took too much acid and came up with some far fetched ideas

the matrix is all around you, when you go to church, when you pay your taxes(tribute).

Agent smith to Morpheus- just look at them, billions of people walking around oblivious(to what is going on)

we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively


wishers never choose, choosers never wish

[billvon 2,400]

>First off the films main claims are that Quantum Mechanincs
>(QM) implies that consciousness creates reality.

I don't think it did. It claimed that your only interface to reality is via your consciousness, and it thus colors your perceptions of that reality. We can choose how to interpret things to create our 'own reality.' Some people think God created everything from rocks to fossils; some believe that natural processes did. Those are their own 'created' realities.

It also got into collapse of quantum wave functions based on observation, which is a real phenomenon. But I did not seem them imply that you can change it, just that there are things that are uncertain until you observe them. (At least I didn't think it did.)

>3. CELLS ARE NOT CONSCIOUSS
>The film talk a lot about the brain and how thoughts are created
> there and then goes on to say cells are consiouss, but erm excuse
> me ,have you forgotten cells dont have brains?

Well, cells are conscious in the same way that transistors can crunch numbers. In other words, consciousness is the result of the interplay of millions of brain cells, the same way you can crunch numbers on a computer with millions of transistors.

>4 THE NATIVE AMERICANS COULDNT SEE THE EUROPEAN SHIPS
>In the film they claim the native Americans couldnt see in 1492
> European ships becasue theyd never seen the ships before and
> therefore they hadnt created the reailty of it.

That's very true in a way. If the first alien spacecraft that visited us looked like a thunderhead, we would likely not see them - until we learned that they weren't really clouds, or that they are darker or whatever. If they had shapes that we had never seen before, it would likely take even longer to be able to 'see them.' (i.e. looked like a bunch of 3D contrails or something.)

>Did no one see the IPOD nano when it was luanched?

The Ipod Nano was designed to look like a cute Ipod. If it looked like a floor mat, people would likely not have recognized it as an Ipod. Indeed, one could imagine them in a store, standing on the Ipods, saying "where the hell are those Ipods?"

[philh 0]

"But I did not seem them imply that you can change it, just that there are things that are uncertain until you observe them. (At least I didn't think it did.)"


On the bastkeball court in the movie we are told about superpositioning and how collapsing the wave function forces a particle to chose a location.
We are then given this speach
"superheroes use super position, we are all being potential strips of reality until we chose. heroes chose what they want."
Why give this speech after our superpositing lecture if not to imply we can chose the outcome of QM events?
The next chap in the movie says
"instead of thinking of things as things, we all have a habit of thinking that everything around is already a thing existing wihtout my input,without my choice, you have to banish that kind of thinking."

OR how about this quote from the movie
"If you accept with every rudiment of your being that you will walk on water , will it happen?yes it will"
or this one:
one might ask how th nutty chiropractor kept a straight face when he said :
"I wake up in the morning and I consciously create my day the way i want it to happen"

No my misguided friends you cannot chose the outcome of a quantum probabilistic event. You cannot walk on water just becuase you want to.


re the ships in 1492. The film claims not that they saw the ships and didnt recognise what they were but that they literally couldnt see them. Your argument may be consistent with not recognisng something but that isnt what the film said at all. In fact they even said the shamen saw the ripples but not the ships. What a load of rubbish , where is the evidence that any of this story is true? There isnt any.

"consciousness is the result of the interplay of millions of brain cells,"
exactly so how can the cells themselves be conscious?

[SpeedRacer 1]

Quote

re the ships in 1492. The film claims not that they saw the ships and didnt recognise what they were but that they literally couldnt see them. Your argument may be consistent with not recognisng something but that isnt what the film said at all. In fact they even said the shamen saw the ripples but not the ships. What a load of rubbish , where is the evidence that any of this story is true? There isnt any.

phil is correct. the film did make that outrageous claim.

Interestingly, I saw a film in alaska made by the Tlingit Indians. It had a brief dramatization of their history. When they saw the first white men coming to their shores, they immediately were able to a) see the ship and b) recognize the ship for basically what it was: A very large boat.

This isn't hard, people. If you've got a bunch of Indians who have been living near a shore for centuries, it is a safe bet they have experience with some type of watercraft.

It's amazing how these new age flake-os can spout such complete bullshit with a straight face, & evidently there are people in the audience who will believe it. I'm sure there were some morons who believe the crap about the ice crystals as well.

Speed Racer
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[hairyjuan 0]

not saying yea or nay, just give this some thought

we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively


wishers never choose, choosers never wish

[SpeedRacer 1]

So if objective reality doesn't exist, why the fuck am I making those damn car payments every month??

Speed Racer
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