6/6/06, the end of the world?

[Amazon 7]

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imagine if you will, a group of men

Ok Mr Serling





Queue Twilight zone music.......de de de dum....de de de dum.

[br0k3n 0]

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I am so curious as to why people who don't believe the Bible,

EDIT - just noticed i miss read your post, but my point still stands.

Are you actually serious!!!!

I don't believe the bible because there isnt a single shread of evidence to support it, (Paj the bible isnt evidence, so please refrain from boring us all by quoting endless scriptures) which is why you need faith, which is a form of non thought.

I think Richard Dawkins summed it up quite nicely with his quote. “Religion is an insult to human dignity”

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[br0k3n 0]

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Why don't you let Christians believe what they want to believe? How does it affect you when others believe that Jesus IS the son of God, and was born of a virgin, sent here by God to be crucified, so mankind can be redeemed?
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The problem with religion is that it teaches us that its ok to believe something based on faith that we don’t need to ask questions that we don’t need evidence….

Faith is defined by the OED as “Confidence, reliance, belief, esp. without evidence or proof” and “Belief based on testimony or authority”. So it is to literally to take a claim as true, and assent belief in it, on the basis of no evidence

As if this weren’t enough, religions also usually have proscriptions against questioning the authority of tradition, as the story of Doubting Thomas makes clear.

Do you think if the Palestinian suicide bomber in Tel Aviv recently had not been brought up on faith alone, he would killed himself and 9 other because he believed though faith alone that his actions would be praised Allah and he would transcend to heaven where "Therein are bashful virgins whom neither man nor jinnee will have touched before ... virgins as fair as corals and rubies,".

Windcather, please open your eyes, ask questions dont waste your life becuase you have faith that there is a life waiting for you after death, as you might get a nasty suprise...

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[Eiley 0]

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A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the Lord.

Deuteronomy 21:1

Am I reading this right? If someone's great great great great great great great grandfather was born out of wedlock, they are wasting a great deal of energy by believing in God because they ain't gettting into heaven anyhow?

Bummer. That's one mean, unforgiving motherfucker of a deity to choose

nothing to see here

[JackC 0]

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I am so curious as to why people who don't believe the Bible, are so adamant in trying to tell Christians they are wrong. Why is this?

The problem I have with religion is when they start distorting facts, use circular reasoning and not understanding the concept of "evidence".

Take this post for instance. This was just ripped off from a cartoon and is being passed off as fact. It's basically a rebuttal of what some christians think evolution science is. The topics listed don't even conform to the real science, it's basically just a made up list designed to make evolution look stupid. People who can't be bothered to check might read that and think it's based on fact when it isn't.

I don't know if this tactic is based in ingorance of the science or is a devious plot designed to futher the agenda. Either way the gibberish that flows out in the name of religion is flabbergasting and deserves criticism.

Of course this applies to many walks of life (the media is particularly guilty of this) all of which need challenging.

[niolosoiale 0]

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A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the Lord.

Deuteronomy 21:1

Am I reading this right? If someone's great great great great great great great grandfather was born out of wedlock, they are wasting a great deal of energy by believing in God because they ain't gettting into heaven anyhow?

Bummer. That's one mean, unforgiving motherfucker of a deity to choose

Here let me append that for you.

A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the Lord [unless you have faith in the Lord and believe he sent his only son to die on the cross to cover your sins in His blood that you may be made righteous in His sight. Don't forget to repent, the offering plate is over there.]

Deuteronomy 21:1

Don't you see how merciful god is? All you have to do is accept his salvation, freely offered to any who will take it. Do this and you will be spared the condemnation which awaits us ALL!

See you didn't read it correctly

(Sometimes I think it's pretty sick to parrot the things I do not believe. Wouldn't you agree?)

[Eiley 0]

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Here let me append that for you.

A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the Lord [unless you have faith in the Lord and believe he sent his only son to die on the cross to cover your sins in His blood that you may be made righteous in His sight. Don't forget to repent, the offering plate is over there.]

Deuteronomy 21:1

Don't you see how merciful god is? All you have to do is accept his salvation, freely offered to any who will take it. Do this and you will be spared the condemnation which awaits us ALL!

See you didn't read it correctly

Ah, thank you for enlightening me, sick parrot.

But your answer raises more questions. Such as, isn't it kind of mean-spirited to impose the label of 'sinner' on someone due to an accident of their birth, something over which they had no control, something which did not involve abusing the free will that good ole God so kindly bestowed upon us?

Pretty good gig God's got there. If you are a sinner, your only hope of salvation is to fawn all over him, sing is praises and stick him to the top of the pile your entire life (and don't forget that collection plate to make his houses look prettier). But then he doesn't give you the option not to be a sinner.

How is that fair?

nothing to see here

[hairyjuan 0]

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Why don't you let Christians believe what they want to believe? How does it affect you when others believe that Jesus IS the son of God, and was born of a virgin, sent here by God to be crucified, so mankind can be redeemed?
.

The problem with religion is that it teaches us that its ok to believe something based on faith that we don’t need to ask questions that we don’t need evidence….

Faith is defined by the OED as “Confidence, reliance, belief, esp. without evidence or proof” and “Belief based on testimony or authority”. So it is to literally to take a claim as true, and assent belief in it, on the basis of no evidence

As if this weren’t enough, religions also usually have proscriptions against questioning the authority of tradition, as the story of Doubting Thomas makes clear.

Do you think if the Palestinian suicide bomber in Tel Aviv recently had not been brought up on faith alone, he would killed himself and 9 other because he believed though faith alone that his actions would be praised Allah and he would transcend to heaven where "Therein are bashful virgins whom neither man nor jinnee will have touched before ... virgins as fair as corals and rubies,".

Windcather, please open your eyes, ask questions dont waste your life becuase you have faith that there is a life waiting for you after death, as you might get a nasty suprise...

a little critical examination of a bible "story" that is is totally without merit-- the hebrews slaves in egypt, with no machinery to aid them drug 270 ton limestone blocks up a ramp (which would have required more stone to build than the pyramid itself) to build these pyramids ca. 4000 years ago. the egyptian records contain absolutely no record of hebrews living in bondage in egypt, it is impossible for men to move a piece of piece of rock that big without machinery. much less load in on a reed boat and float it up the river fromthe river to the construction site. the pryamids were already in existence when the this "story" supposedly took place. A MATTER OFHISTORICAL FACT!

we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively


wishers never choose, choosers never wish

[hairyjuan 0]

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I am so curious as to why people who don't believe the Bible, are so adamant in trying to tell Christians they are wrong. Why is this?

The problem I have with religion is when they start distorting facts, use circular reasoning and not understanding the concept of "evidence".

Take this post for instance. This was just ripped off from a cartoon and is being passed off as fact. It's basically a rebuttal of what some christians think evolution science is. The topics listed don't even conform to the real science, it's basically just a made up list designed to make evolution look stupid. People who can't be bothered to check might read that and think it's based on fact when it isn't.

I don't know if this tactic is based in ingorance of the science or is a devious plot designed to futher the agenda. Either way the gibberish that flows out in the name of religion is flabbergasting and deserves criticism.

Of course this applies to many walks of life (the media is particularly guilty of this) all of which need challenging.

romans 13: 1-7 says basically that you should obey the government, unquestionably, because it is annointed of G-d. fascim says obey the government, don't question it or dissent from it. Christianity's god must be a fascist

we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively


wishers never choose, choosers never wish

[hairyjuan 0]

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the bible is provably not credible, get over it so WE can ALL unite for the betterment of all humanity

I think the Bible is the only thing keeping people strong in this day and age. When people have no problem lying, beating their children, cheating on their spouse, having sex with animals, etc, how on earth is eliminating God's word, which goes against all the nasty things I mentioned above, do anyone any kind of good?

I am a better person as a result of reading the Word of God. I am more loving and more kind than I ever thought I could be. I am no where near the kind of person I desire to be, but God has changed me a lot.
I have experienced some very personal times where God revealed His presence to me in an awesome way.

you are a better person because you believed in yourself enough to become a better person, the same as me, the only difference is that i know where the POWER comes from, and you give credit where it IS NOT due. everything you need is WITHIN you, not without

we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively


wishers never choose, choosers never wish

[windcatcher 0]

Prove to me God doesn't exist, the Bible is wrong, God hasn't changed my life, and there is NO heaven or hell, and I'll gladly shut up.

Problem is, nobody will know the truth until they die--after they die, they won't be able to come back and let others know God is real and heaven and hell really do exist.

You've only got one chance to live life on this earth, and then you're gone. There is nothing you can do to relive your life differently. This life is all there is, and then eternity comes.

Are you going to be ready?

Mother to the cutest little thing in the world...

[Shotgun 1]

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Problem is, nobody will know the truth until they die

Including you. But your beliefs are important to you, and that's ok.

Though, as you have probably already figured out, if you want to express such beliefs on most public (non-religious) forums, you're likely going to hear what others think of those beliefs. And a lot of it likely won't be what you want to hear. (But that is not to say that you should stop expressing your beliefs.)

[windcatcher 0]

I don't mind hearing what others have to say about my beliefs; I certainly don't expect most to agree with me.
However, I do know the message of the Cross is offensive. I can claim Jesus to be a myth, and that's perfectly acceptable; if I do the same for any other religious figure, I will be called arrogant, not being politically correct, etc. Oh well.

And Hairyjuan, if you'd like to send me that material, I will read it.

Mother to the cutest little thing in the world...

[freethefly 6]

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Problem is, nobody will know the truth until they die--after they die, they won't be able to come back and let others know God is real and heaven and hell really do exist

Sarah, this statement really does not work. You made two statements in one sentence that completey contradict the other.
First you say "Problem is, nobody will know the truth until they die-"(note that you stated "nobody") afterwhich you state as truth "-after they die, they won't be able to come back and let others know God is real and heaven and hell really do exist"(note that you stated "God is real and heaven and hell really do exist"). Do you include yourself with "nobody" or are you in possesion of proof to contradict?

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[niolosoiale 0]

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Prove to me God doesn't exist, the Bible is wrong, God hasn't changed my life, and there is NO heaven or hell, and I'll gladly shut up.

Problem is, nobody will know the truth until they die--after they die, they won't be able to come back and let others know God is real and heaven and hell really do exist.

You've only got one chance to live life on this earth, and then you're gone. There is nothing you can do to relive your life differently. This life is all there is, and then eternity comes.

Are you going to be ready?

I can't prove to you god doesn't exist but I can logically prove (with biblical backing) that you do not have 100% certainty that god does exist.

In the "I'm a christian and proud of it" thread I made reference to the fact that god requires people to put their faith in him. If he requires that people have faith for salvation, then that rules out the ability of people to actually experience god in a way that their brain can affirm as god actually existing. For your brain, which contains all of your knowledge, memories, thoughts, etc... the concept of god is an abstract reason for the things you don't already know or understand. But it is only a concept. You cannot truthfully tell me or anyone else that you have felt god with your fingers, seen him with your eyes, heard him with your ears, smelled him with your nose, or tasted him with your tongue. These senses are the things your brain uses to validate something as existing. If you can't touch, taste, smell, see, or hear it, you can only speculate about it's existence. Other people can tell you that THEY have, but that is only their word of mouth, and you don't know what their true intentions are. So you're still speculating.

Simplifying what I'm trying to say, if you could experience god in a way that would give you 100% certainty that he exists, you wouldn't need faith. But god requires that you have faith (this is biblical). If you know something exists it doesnt matter whether you have faith or not, but clearly in the case of salvation, it does matter.

You, as a person, do not KNOW with 100% certainty that he does exist, likewise others do not know that he doesn't. But the evidence supporting existence is lacking. You can't use the supposed word of god to prove god. Fact is the bible was written by many men and certain people's accounts of the same events do not correspond with each other or go against foundational doctrinal principles, as a result they are not included in the bible. There needs to be a evidence which is undeniable to any man that it is from god. Of course that is not possible as if it was undeniable, then the need for faith would be nullified.

The concept of god has changed your life (heaven and hell being your primary factors of motivation for having faith in the concept you believe in) but that doesn't mean the bible is right,, that god exists, or that heaven and hell don't. The concepts themselves are strong enough emotionally and mentally to motivate someone to have faith, IF they choose to ignore logic and reasoning. Of course humans are logical and rational animals (part of what makes us human) and as a result that smidgen of doubt that I KNOW you have about whether what you believe is a sham or not, will never go away. Thus you must persist in having faith. Faith lets you ignore the doubt which can only be erased through physical experience.

[niolosoiale 0]

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Here let me append that for you.

A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the Lord [unless you have faith in the Lord and believe he sent his only son to die on the cross to cover your sins in His blood that you may be made righteous in His sight. Don't forget to repent, the offering plate is over there.]

Deuteronomy 21:1

Don't you see how merciful god is? All you have to do is accept his salvation, freely offered to any who will take it. Do this and you will be spared the condemnation which awaits us ALL!

See you didn't read it correctly

Ah, thank you for enlightening me, sick parrot.

But your answer raises more questions. Such as, isn't it kind of mean-spirited to impose the label of 'sinner' on someone due to an accident of their birth, something over which they had no control, something which did not involve abusing the free will that good ole God so kindly bestowed upon us?

Pretty good gig God's got there. If you are a sinner, your only hope of salvation is to fawn all over him, sing is praises and stick him to the top of the pile your entire life (and don't forget that collection plate to make his houses look prettier). But then he doesn't give you the option not to be a sinner.

How is that fair?

Parrot mode "Who are we to question what is fair and what is not? As sinners, we are not capable of determining these things. Only the just and true God can judge right from wrong. This is why we put our faith in him and his sacrifice that we will be able to stand before him at the hour of judgement, and be found favorable in his sight. Should God allow any man regardless of his faith into heaven? Surely not, as that would make having faith in him pointless. And nothing God does is pointless."


Ok anyway... I've addressed a few concerns of yours in another thread. But to recap, it is absurd to think that god, creating man the way man was created, would punish the creation eternally, for having a temporary failure (which God expected) which was the result of being the way he was created.

If you are born a failure, how can you be expected to do anything but fail? It doesn't make sense for god to be able to forgive you of all these other failures (murder, rape, theft, idolatry, etc) and not forgive you of the failure to have faith in something you couldn't even experience.

That is one of my stronger logical arguments against the christian religion. (Christians, no need to tell me about how I can't use logic as I understand it to explain and debate the nature of god. Just ignore me)

[Zenister 0]

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Prove to me God doesn't exist, the Bible is wrong, God hasn't changed my life, and there is NO heaven or hell, and I'll gladly shut up.

Problem is, nobody will know the truth until they die……snipped typical unsupportable Christian assertions……

Are you going to be ready?

Actually Jesus IS a myth... (look it up, it is a fact. As are ALL OTHER RELIGIOUS ICONS/FIGURES)

However there IS power in Myth, and power in Belief, but that power comes from YOU and the place those Myths and Beliefs have in your life…

YOU changed your life, not God, not Jesus and certainly not the bible or your church. just like the football player who gives God credit for his team's victory, or the wife who thanks God for her soldier husband's safe return from combat. It isn’t God, it isn’t your prayers, your tithes or your church that had ANY EFFECT at all…

THE PEOPLE made the difference, made the decisions, had the training, the will, and perseverance to create the eventual outcome...

God simply created the playing field. YOU are responsible for your conduct and the outcome YOU create.

As to the rest of your post is simply spiritually immature grandstanding. I was born ready, as were you and every other human who has EVER existed…

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[SpeedRacer 1]

So then, has this thread replaced that "other" Thread????

If the completely pointless, round & round & back & forth, argument of the atheists vs. Christians continues until 6/06/2006, can we just call it a draw?????

Speed Racer
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[windcatcher 0]

Jesus Christ is King of Kings and Lord of Lords, whether you or I believe it.

Have a good evening

Mother to the cutest little thing in the world...

[hairyjuan 0]

this is eternity right here, right now! infinity exists just outside of your five sense prison! WAKE UP!

we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively


wishers never choose, choosers never wish

[hairyjuan 0]

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If I write something in a book and store it away for a 1000 years and say that god told me to write it does it make worth quoting?

Only if you're credible, you have lots of other credible witnesses supporting the facts that your stating about the events and yourself, that your documentation can be shown through textual criticism to be accurate and written close to the time frame of the events, that what you write matches up with recorded history, and if it can be shown to be supernatural in origin due to it matching up with many other documents containing prophesied events and claims to be "of God." That would be a start.

Added: Oh right... And in your testimony (supported by everyone else), it needs to include a person, claiming to be God himself, living a sinless life, fulfilling all the prophesy of the Messiah, performing miracles including raising the dead, predicting his own persecution and death, and being tortured, crucified, killed, and resurrected for the sins of the world. That would help...

THE BIBLE CREDIBLE? NOT REALLY

we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively


wishers never choose, choosers never wish

[SpeedRacer 1]

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this is eternity right here, right now! infinity exists just outside of your five sense prison! WAKE UP!

I've been reading this & other posts by you, & I think you could write one of those labels for Dr. Bronners Peppermint Castile Soap.

Speed Racer
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[hairyjuan 0]

actually, Quantum Physics is now illustrating that the act of observing electrons in motion cancels the wave interference pattern, by the human conciousness, is how the "playing field" is created. just another interesting idea. What the bleep.com

we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively


wishers never choose, choosers never wish

[pajarito 0]

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If you are born a failure, how can you be expected to do anything but fail? It doesn't make sense for god to be able to forgive you of all these other failures (murder, rape, theft, idolatry, etc) and not forgive you of the failure to have faith in something you couldn't even experience.

Firstly, God can do anything whether it makes sense to us or not. Secondly, if I held a gun to your head and told you to say or do something, you’d probably do it. It wouldn’t mean much at all. It’s a whole other matter if you choose to do what I ask on your own. My point being, God didn’t create robots. He desires a relationship with us. However, the consequence of free will is the ability to choose an alternative which may or may not be in our best interest. God is the source of all life. It is in our best interest to do what he asks. Selfishness is at the core of our nature, however, and it is natural for us to choose the things of the world instead. As long as we are maintaining a death grip on our natural desires, we are in fact enemies of God. A holy and just God will not tolerate sin and his wrath abides on us (we are under sentence of death; Hebrews 9:27; and as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment.).

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Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Ephesians 2:3

You can do nothing in this regard of yourself. Only Jesus working in you makes you a better person. Only the sacrifice of Jesus will make you righteous before a holy God on the Day of Judgment. It’s like you’re a glob of clay. God whittles away at you your entire life and you eventually become the person he wants you to be; a person who is worthy to enter heaven. You don’t get there because you’re a good person. You get there because you’re a bad person at heart who’s been forgiven. You will then be given the ability, through Jesus, to become sons and daughters of God instead of children of wrath.

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But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.
John 1:12

[hairyjuan 0]

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Jesus Christ is King of Kings and Lord of Lords, whether you or I believe it.

Have a good evening

since you have repeatedly demanded proof that SUN(jesus) is a myth, and continously refuse the offer of ABSOLUTE PROOF, PROVE THAT JESUS EXISTED WITHOUT USING THE ASTRO-THEOLOGY BOOK. YOU CANNOT DO IT, GUARENTEED

we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively


wishers never choose, choosers never wish