discipline?

[kenz 0]

ok i just want to come on here and see what you guys think about constant positive reinforcement and discipline towards children...

i work with 80 kids ranging from 6-13yrs old... and just from working with them and my own personal observation i have noticed that "positive reinforcement" has done CRAP for these kids and their manners...

they do things wrong and if they fess up nothing is done - parents dont want them to feel bad... i'm sorry but if my kid does something wrong you can bet your ass they will pay the consequences for their behaviors, and they will never talk back to an adult if i can help it... the kids don't care because it's like "you can say what you want to me but i know my mom or dad will tell you to keep quiet so i don't feel bad"

we had an extreme case with one chile in particular who was in KINDERGARTEN, who was so badly behaved he eventually got kicked out of school... but up until that point he would get in our faces and scream, he kicked me on several occasions, when i confronted his parents about the issue (from the get-go) he made ME talk to him and then in this dumb soft spoken voice was all "hey buddy are you having a bad day? ok well we just won't do that anymore will we?" and that was it...

another child who constantly gets in trouble (another product of positive reinforcemt) dropped the n-bomb 3 times in front of kindergarteners, my boss confronted the child's dad and told him what happened... when he was told what happened he asked the kid, he told the dad that he was talking about a book and he was sorry and would never say it again, and dad dropped it...

i could go on and on about the ridiculous things i encounter daily, but i could NEVER imagine disrespecting adults the way these kids do and getting away with it because my mom didn't want me to "feel bad"

our kids and parents need a wake up call - the real world doesn't work like that...

i am also not claiming that ALL positive reinforcement is bad... sometimes it works, but just from my own observation no way... these parents are in total denial of their children's behavior

anyway enough of my rant... sorry to splurge, but i can't take this garbage anymore without getting it off my chest...

how do you feel about it? does this concern anyone else?

"life does throw curveballs sometimes but it doesn't mean we shouldn't still swing for the homerun" ~ me

[rehmwa 2]

Positive reinforcement for good behavior.
Negative reinforcement for bad behavior.

stay consistent in both, try to keep the ratio heavy to the positive side

the big problem is the bleeding hearts want to eliminate any kind of negative reinformcement for bad behavior. Won't work, bad behavior is fun and ignoring it is tantamount to permission when it's fun stuff.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[funjumper101 15]

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Positive reinforcement for good behavior.
Negative reinforcement for bad behavior.

stay consistent in both, try to keep the ratio heavy to the positive side

the big problem is the bleeding hearts want to eliminate

Agreed.

[livendive 8]

I think your idea of positive reinforcement and mine differ. When I think of the concept, I'm thinking of the most effective means of training an animal. You don't teach a dog to sit by pushing his ass onto the ground and beating him for resisting. You teach him by waiting for him to sit on his own and then rewarding the behavior with praise and/or treats, along with reinforcing an instruction to go along with the action. Pretty soon he equates hearing the command "sit", with the action of sitting, and the outcome of reward.

No matter what kind of animal you're trying to train, and what kind of behavior you're trying to train it to, positive reinforcement is the most efficient method.

As much as most people would like to think otherwise, humans are animals.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Trent 0]

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No matter what kind of animal you're trying to train, and what kind of behavior you're trying to train it to, positive reinforcement is the most efficient method.

How do you positively reinforce NOT doing something to a dog? Like teaching them NOT to bite, NOT to chase little kids, NOT to dig out of the yard. Stuff like that. Seriously.

The way I always did it was when the dog bit me, even playing, you gave him a quick swat on the nose and said NO. Is there something else to do here?

Sorry for the sidetrack...

ANYWAY, I noticed these problems with kids even when I was still a kid. As a teenager, you'd see the younger kids in the neighborhood mouthing off to the older kids, throwing puches at older kids, stuff like that. If I had done that to the older kids when I was little, I'd have gotten beat down. Now the kids aren't afraid of it because they know Mommy and Daddy will just call the police or protect them.

It seems like their disrespect for adults is just following along those lines as well.

Oh, hello again!

[billvon 2,456]

>how do you feel about it?

Kids need both positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement. Positive reinforcement should outweigh negative reinforcement, and negative reinforcement can range from parental disapproval, to loss of privledges, to confinement (i.e. grounding them/'time out') to physical punishment (spanking) as a last resort. In my opinion, good parents use negative reinforcement as seldom as possible, but if it is needed, then it should be used (sparingly.) 90% of the time, it isn't needed very much.

[rehmwa 2]

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>Kids need both positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement. Positive reinforcement should outweigh negative reinforcement, and negative reinforcement can range from parental disapproval, to loss of privledges, to confinement (i.e. grounding them/'time out') to physical punishment (spanking) as a last resort. In my opinion, good parents use negative reinforcement as seldom as possible, but if it is needed, then it should be used (sparingly.) 90% of the time, it isn't needed very much.

Nicely written. Another thing missing in the whole set and I missed it in my first post here -

When needed, any negative reinforcement must be timely and calmly (low key emotion like disapproval, sadness, etc, not total grief, anger, big diplays) administered and the reason for the punishment clearly communicated - one can't wait until "The BOY finally drove me to it!" and then start the spankerin'/grounding/disapproval etc.

If punishment is administered in a state of anger, then the lesson to the child is that they can tweak the emotional strings of the parent with bad behavior - also the lesson that it's ok to lose self control. You lose all opportunity to train maturity with that reinforcing lesson.

Eliminating negative reinforcement is a knee jerk response to those that do it wrong. Instead, people need to learn how to get the best psychological response from all kinds of reinforcement.

Positive reinforcement should be reinforced with emotion and can be done in many different ways. Still best to be clear why it's being given so the message is clean. It's ok for a child to learn how to 'tweak' positive responses from others by using positive behavior.

Training a child to be an adult is a complete act of unselfish love. all reinforcement is a way of showing that when done with the sake of the child's character in mind(rather than one's own selfish motives)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[livendive 8]

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How do you positively reinforce NOT doing something to a dog? Like teaching them NOT to bite, NOT to chase little kids, NOT to dig out of the yard. Stuff like that. Seriously.

The way I always did it was when the dog bit me, even playing, you gave him a quick swat on the nose and said NO. Is there something else to do here?

Yeah, basically that gets into negative reinforcement, even if the only means is denial of positive reinforcement. With my dogs, past & present, the change in tone of my voice from normal luvvy-duvvy-puppy speak to a firm "No" has generally been sufficient denial, but a few firm yanks on the leash to correct pulling while training "heel" has been par for the course too.

For the most part, vocal disapproval and denial of positive reinforcement has always worked for me, be it with pets or my daughter. My daughter didn't throw a temper tantrum on me beyond the age of 10 months (she's now rapidly approaching 18). She's pretty much always done what I've told her, when I've told her, despite the fact that I've never once used corporal punishment on her. I caught her lying to myself, my mom, and my grandma once when she was five. Requiring her to apologize to everyone involved and expressing my disappointment cured that. She got caught shoplifting once when she was 10, and as far as I can tell hasn't done it since, despite the fact that disappointing her mom and I, having to make amends, and being threatened with a banishment from the mall were the only negative reinforcements. She's worked the maximum number of hours permissible per week for a minor in this state since she was legal to work, and has concurrently maintained very good grades.

In short, what I'm saying is that it is possible to raise a well-behaved child with positive reinforcement. Mine hasn't been perfect, but she's been pretty damned good, and her biggest misbehaviors have been when she was with her mom, not me, despite the fact that mom has spanked her. Contrasting my experience with the kids I see in grocery stores being screamed at or spanked by their parents provides all the proof I need that positive reinforcement is just a fundamentally better way of training a child.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[rehmwa 2]

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the change in tone of my voice from normal luvvy-duvvy-puppy speak to a firm "No" has generally been sufficient denial, but a few firm yanks on the leash to correct pulling while training "heel" has been par for the course too.....For the most part, vocal disapproval and denial of positive reinforcement has always worked for me, be it with pets or my daughter.

you...... BEAST ...... I'm calling social service and the humane society

you make me so sick to my stomache

I'm absolutely hungry in outrage.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[livendive 8]

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When needed, any negative reinforcement must be timely and calmly (low key emotion like disapproval, sadness, etc, not total grief, anger, big diplays) administered and the reason for the punishment clearly communicated - one can't wait until "The BOY finally drove me to it!" and then start the spankerin'/grounding/disapproval etc.

If punishment is administered in a state of anger, then the lesson to the child is that they can tweak the emotional strings of the parent with bad behavior - also the lesson that it's ok to lose self control. You lose all opportunity to train maturity with that reinforcing lesson.

Learning is most difficult in a period of stress. Having a parent screaming and ranting while the child is experiencing pain from spanking ranks about as stressful as it gets for a kid. They may consider it later and learn, but at the time they'll be thinking about getting out of the situation, not about what got them into the situation.

Also, for the most part it seems to me that parents who behave like that aren't so much trying to teach their child a lesson as they are trying to vent their own anger and frustration. I never took spanking completely off the table as an option for my daughter, but I did promise myself that if I ever felt the need to use it, I'd first consider why I was about to, and make sure it WASN'T due to anger/frustration. No matter what, cool and calm is the way to be. Yelling should be reserved for when the child is far enough away that it's required for them to hear you.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[rehmwa 2]

It's no fun to debate when we are in agreement.

But since this is likely the only REALLY important topic (building character in our children) on the board today, it's good to resonate with someone else.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Richards 0]

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Positive reinforcement for good behavior.
Negative reinforcement for bad behavior.

stay consistent in both, try to keep the ratio heavy to the positive side

the big problem is the bleeding hearts want to eliminate any kind of negative reinformcement for bad behavior. Won't work, bad behavior is fun and ignoring it is tantamount to permission when it's fun stuff.

I second that.

Richards

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[Lindsey 0]

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>how do you feel about it?

Kids need both positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement. Positive reinforcement should outweigh negative reinforcement, and negative reinforcement can range from parental disapproval, to loss of privledges, to confinement (i.e. grounding them/'time out') to physical punishment (spanking) as a last resort. In my opinion, good parents use negative reinforcement as seldom as possible, but if it is needed, then it should be used (sparingly.) 90% of the time, it isn't needed very much.

I think that *most* of the time when we punish our kids, it comes from some kind of fear that they're not gonna do what we want them to do....rather than as a method to guide/direct them in a positive direction.

In my experience, kids mostly want to do well, and while they need limits, they don't usually need to be enforced with an iron fist. When children feel respected and valued, they usually respect and value themselves....which translates into kids doing pretty well.

edited to add: not that I don't think that well-timed whoopins aren't worthwhile. They can be exactly the right thing if used at the right time

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[kenz 0]

i guess this whole thread just comes from frustration of complete and utter disrespect that i have NEVER seen before... never in my life have i seen SO many kids open their mouths and talk back to adults and parents, like it was perfectly fine to do so, or act out in such appauling behavior and more times than not see parents come in and pat them on the back for expressing themselves or whatever bullshit is being thrown out there nowadays... maybe its because most of these parents dot ever see the behavior first hand because theyre so caught up in themselves and/or money... it just blows my mind...
we have a few elderly women that work with us and the way these kids talk back to them makes me sick to my stomach.. sometimes i wish the parents just stepped up and decided to be parents instead of letting the kids control how it goes down, because they don't want to hurt little johnny's feelings...
i know this is turning into a big mess of problems i have with this and i apologize...
and i will say no i am not a parent yet - but when i have parents thanking me sometimes for helping them straighten their child out, or wonder why their kid will listen to what i have to tell them it makes me nervous... why are parents so scared to discipline... and im not talking physical (though i do think the occassional smack on the ass won't kill anyone)

"life does throw curveballs sometimes but it doesn't mean we shouldn't still swing for the homerun" ~ me

[Andy9o8 0]

This isn't the first SC thread about child discipline, and it won't be the last.
- I find that most people who address the issue in strident black-and-white terms are not parents themselves.
- I find that most people who are parents themselves express a genuine understanding (not just passing acknowledgment) that the issue has nuances and can't be reduced to strident, black-and white terms.
- I find that most of the time I can accurately predict whether the poster is a parent or not simply by the rhetoric he/she uses to address the issue.

[RhondaLea 3]

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This isn't the first SC thread about child discipline, and it won't be the last.
- I find that most people who address the issue in strident black-and-white terms are not parents themselves.
- I find that most people who are parents themselves express a genuine understanding (not just passing acknowledgment) that the issue has nuances and can't be reduced to strident, black-and white terms.
- I find that most of the time I can accurately predict whether the poster is a parent or not simply by the rhetoric he/she uses to address the issue.

Totally agreed.

On another note, we forget that we have a policy in the current era of teaching children to be "disrespectful" to adults--and it's not entirely a bad thing.

As a matter of self-defense, in the last 20 or so years, we have gone far beyond our parents' caution to us to "beware of strangers" because we have learned that not all "bad touches" come from strangers, but from people who are very close to us.

It is hard for a child to distinguish between appropriate and inappropriate defiance of "authority." And when they are told by certain authorities that even parents are limited in what they can do, it's very confusing to them.

For most kids, this eventually gets sorted out, but for some, once parental authority has been undermined, there's no going back.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[masterrig 1]

Too many parents are too wrapped-up in themselves, needs, career, money, etc. and scared of their kids. JMO


Chuck

[billvon 2,456]

>and i will say no i am not a parent yet . . .

Sounds like you're getting some good training though! Amy goes through the same thing where she works (pediatrician) with parents who want to be buddies with their kids instead of parents.

[Lindsey 0]

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Too many parents are too wrapped-up in themselves, needs, career, money, etc. and scared of their kids. JMO


Chuck

I think you're absolutely right about that....which leads to parents wanting to be buddies.

The parents you're talking about, though, don't just not punish their kids....they don't discipline their kids.

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[masterrig 1]

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Quote

Too many parents are too wrapped-up in themselves, needs, career, money, etc. and scared of their kids. JMO


Chuck

I think you're absolutely right about that....which leads to parents wanting to be buddies.

The parents you're talking about, though, don't just not punish their kids....they don't discipline their kids.

___________________________________

I see kids in grocery stores and other places and the way they act and talk back to their parents! If, I was to act that way when I was a kid, there's no tellin, what the out-come would have been. My folks were reasonable people who took interest in us and disciplined us when necessary. If, I got in trouble at school... I got it again when I got home. I am not talking about beatings with a belt or the back of a hand. I was made a believer that I'd better not do it again. So many parents are so worried about their child's 'psyche', they forget that a little dusting of the seat of the britches will do more for their psyche than pussin' out and accepting that the child says he won't do it again. He says that to get the folks off his back. Kids want their parents to be parents. Let the kid get away with it once and you lost the game. Once again, I am not condoning 'brute force' on a child or beatings but rather discipline... plain and simple. It is not the kid's position to lead his parents around through intimidation but rather, it is the parent's job to control the child and raise that child right. Anger should be left out of it completely. When anger is up... learning goes down.


Chuck

[kenz 0]

amen

"life does throw curveballs sometimes but it doesn't mean we shouldn't still swing for the homerun" ~ me

[Lindsey 0]

Ditto that.

I do think that when the psychologists became so vocal about parenting....about the value of positive reinforcement in parenting and the negative effects of physical punishment on kids....that a lot of parents took that at face value and stopped spanking, stopped disciplining all together, and became buddies with their kids.

It's pretty easy to pull out a belt every time your child misbehaves. It's a lot more difficult to provide discipline while minimizing that kind of punishment, but also is probably in the end more effective. Doing things that are difficult, though, is....hard.



linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail