War in the Iraq, At what point do people think it should end?
By
larskjargaard, in Speakers Corner
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True, but who destabilized the entire country. We have to accept responsibility for the cluster fuck we created. At least under Saddam daily suicide bombers were not the norm. The country and region was better off with Saddam in power. Now not only do we have to deal with Iraq but Iran too. Brilliant move on the admins part.
Michele 1
QuoteBecause they know that many of the people who invaded them don't give a rat's ass if they live or die. (or if their kids live or die.)
Bill, I think that's a really gratuitous statement. It is inflammatory, and designed to evoke guilt in people...and I'd think you could do better than that.
Here's my position...
I care about dead and alive Iraqi citizens, both adults and children. However, I care more about my country's citizens than I do about the Iraqis. And frankly, if you asked the Iraqis who they cared about more, it would be their countrymen rather than ours.
Note I am not saying that American lives are more valuable. Rather, I, as an american, do consider my countrymen's lives before I consider anyone else's - be it Roratongan, Siberian, Iraqi, German, or whomever. And know what? There's not a damned thing wrong with that, either.
Again, consider that if asked, Roratongan, Siberian, Iraqi, German, or whomever would consider their countrymen before ours...and that's as it should be.
So knock it off with the guilt and the implied deservedness of terrorist/insurgent attacks. It's getting boring, and is simply an emotional argument made to inflame others. Isn't that trolling? If you want to discuss it, then do so with some of the rationality you're "known" for...and back it up with historical stuff, ideology, and comparisons; playing solely to emotions is beneath you, in my opinion.
Ciels-
Michele
~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~
billvon 2,476
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>Bill, I think that's a really gratuitous statement.
It is a sentiment that has been echoed here quite a bit, in statements from "GLASS FUCKING PARKING LOT" to "i don't care about dead iraqi citizens." So it may upset you, but it is a real sentiment that people feel (for whatever reason.) And no matter how you ameliorate it, it is a problem for the US, one that will bite us in the ass later. Better to deal with it now than after it's too late.
Or perhaps there is no way to deal with it. Perhaps there will always be people who simply don't care if others die. There do seem to be a lot of them in the world, both here in the US and in Iraq.
Edited to add - or you could take the optimistic view that they are saying it and they don't really mean it. That would be actually a relief to discover. I guess time will tell.
It is a sentiment that has been echoed here quite a bit, in statements from "GLASS FUCKING PARKING LOT" to "i don't care about dead iraqi citizens." So it may upset you, but it is a real sentiment that people feel (for whatever reason.) And no matter how you ameliorate it, it is a problem for the US, one that will bite us in the ass later. Better to deal with it now than after it's too late.
Or perhaps there is no way to deal with it. Perhaps there will always be people who simply don't care if others die. There do seem to be a lot of them in the world, both here in the US and in Iraq.
Edited to add - or you could take the optimistic view that they are saying it and they don't really mean it. That would be actually a relief to discover. I guess time will tell.
racer42 0
Quotei don't care about dead iraqi citizens count. we're not blowing them up, they're blowing themselves up.
Then why, pray tell, are we there?
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kallend 1,679
QuoteQuotei don't care about dead iraqi citizens count. we're not blowing them up, they're blowing themselves up.
Then why, pray tell, are we there?
So we can take the oil.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
Scoop 0
It'll be over by christmas 
Michele 1
QuoteIt is a sentiment that has been echoed here quite a bit, in statements from "GLASS FUCKING PARKING LOT" to "i don't care about dead iraqi citizens." So it may upset you, but it is a real sentiment that people feel (for whatever reason.) And no matter how you ameliorate it, it is a problem for the US, one that will bite us in the ass later. Better to deal with it now than after it's too late.
I'm not looking to ameliorate it, I'm simply stating that your use of the emotional argument is getting old. Sure, there are fucktards who scream about killing "ragheads" and whatnot. There are even people who holler about glass parking lots. But that's not the point the OP was making, I don't think. For you to lump everyone who cares about their countryman before another country's citizens as bad, immoral, lacking class/sensitivity, or not understanding that there is a reason some people hate us...well, that's just not up to your abilities.
It would be the same if I were to start stridently shrieking about how Amerika is horrible, oppressive, controlled by the Illuminati, and so forth. It's an extremist view, and while some of the thousands who post here have it (as some of the thousands who post here have the glass parking lot mentality), it serves no purpose except to inflame and instigate.
{quote]Or perhaps there is no way to deal with it. Perhaps there will always be people who simply don't care if others die. There do seem to be a lot of them in the world, both here in the US and in Iraq.
There will always be people who don't care if someone of another country is killed - or worse, actively seek a way to create it. I think they are less than you seem to think...and I sincerely doubt that Iraqi children are reading DZ.com.
If the percentage follows through (and I haven't any idea if it does), then there are very few people who don't care. In a society, they tend to get restricted and ostracized, at least in my experience...
I do think something can be done; both understand the speaker of such vitriol, and find a way to bring humanity to the folks they are screaming about. Sometimes it's like shouting into a void...but mostly it's not.
The good thing is, frankly, that those who're screaming "glass parking lot" are not the ones strapping suicide vests on their children and saying "go forth...and kill!!!" while the dollars flow to the family from Hamas. The bad thing is, frankly, that there will always be a group like Hamas who instigate, propigate, and foster the hate mongering we see playing out right now.
And that's a pity.
QuoteEdited to add - or you could take the optimistic view that they are saying it and they don't really mean it. That would be actually a relief to discover. I guess time will tell.
Know what? I don't think those who say "glass parking lot" and "raghead death!" and the other slurs mean it. I think they - similar to you - are being emotional about something. Often, when I've seen those comments, it's been while they've been provoked - by a terrorist attack, another poster calling names, or whatnot - and that they really aren't quite as violent as all that.
Matter of fact, I've met Rhino, and I think he's a pretty nice guy. Our politics are dissimilar, but hey, who cares when you're at the dropzone...and another two people who post on this forum have enlisted. They're putting their money where their mouths are, and I admire them for that.
I do think that an emotional response such as the one the OP made is not something that can be taken with as much weight as you tend to give them. Rather, you get sucked in to reacting emotionally, as well, and the entire thread gets thumped. That's why I was saying that you are pulling the same shit they are...and you're capable of much better arguments than that.
Ciels-
Michele
~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~
Surely the "War" in Iraq ended some time ago.
We went in to effect a regime change. To LIBERATE the Iraqi people.
Job Done! Some time ago in fact.
So... In the best Hollywood traditions, weren't we supposed to then ride away into the sunset (perhaps leaving a Silver Bullet behind).
Given that we are such believers in self-determination & the "Will-Of-The-People", why aren't we leaving The Iraqis to exercise that will & self-determination?
It's not about the oil... No... Really... Given the costs of continuing to occupy Iraq, that particular business plan is running at a loss!
Could it be that Iraq will make a very handy second front when it comes to invading the latest identifiedmajor oil producer supporter of international terrorism (Iran)?
As for those who "Don't give A Rats Ass" about Iraqi deaths... They surely accept the "Attitude-Mirror" statement that "American Helicopters make cute squealy noises when they're shot down"?
Mike.
Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.
Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.
We went in to effect a regime change. To LIBERATE the Iraqi people.
Job Done! Some time ago in fact.
So... In the best Hollywood traditions, weren't we supposed to then ride away into the sunset (perhaps leaving a Silver Bullet behind).
Given that we are such believers in self-determination & the "Will-Of-The-People", why aren't we leaving The Iraqis to exercise that will & self-determination?
It's not about the oil... No... Really... Given the costs of continuing to occupy Iraq, that particular business plan is running at a loss!
Could it be that Iraq will make a very handy second front when it comes to invading the latest identified
As for those who "Don't give A Rats Ass" about Iraqi deaths... They surely accept the "Attitude-Mirror" statement that "American Helicopters make cute squealy noises when they're shot down"?
Mike.
Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.
Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.
J/K
Mother to the cutest little thing in the world...
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