Do you oppose same-sex marriage for religious reasons?

[windcatcher 0]

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It's ironic how all the open minded people here start spewing all their little names at people that don't embrace their views of the world. Homophobe, racist, bloodthirsty etc.

This is an interesting idea, isn't it? How if you believe something is morally wrong or goes against your beliefs, you aren't open-minded.
I don't agree with the homosexual lifestyle, but that doesn't mean I am against homosexuals themselves. I would love anyone regardless of their lifestyle...but that doesn't mean I have to agree with it.

Mother to the cutest little thing in the world...

[micro 0]

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Guess it's a good thing that this is HH's place then Rhonda

The rules are irrelevant to the fact that you make a lousy argument.

rl

lol! and that, my friends, is why you don't fuck w/ rl. lol!

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[GTAVercetti 0]

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Guess it's a good thing that this is HH's place then Rhonda

The rules are irrelevant to the fact that you make a lousy argument.

rl

lol! and that, my friends, is why you don't fuck w/ rl. lol!

Are you REALLY laughing out loud?

Or are you just trying to get on her good side with your silly acronyms?

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[RhondaLea 3]

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Are you REALLY laughing out loud?

Y'know, I laugh at my display all the time. If I post a , it's because I really was laughing.

Knowing Michael, though...there's no way to tell.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[micro 0]

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Are you REALLY laughing out loud?

Y'know, I laugh at my display all the time. If I post a , it's because I really was laughing.

Knowing Michael, though...there's no way to tell.

rl

Rob, I wasn't laughing out loud, I was lolling. Can't you fucking read? You fucking retard! Take off that hat! Don't you know what lolling is? You should try it! It's a shit-roaring good time! lol! Do it! NOW! LOL with me, dammit!

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[rehmwa 2]

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Rob, I wasn't laughing out loud, I was lolling. Can't you fucking read? You fucking retard! Take off that hat! Don't you know what lolling is? You should try it! It's a shit-roaring good time! lol! Do it! NOW! LOL with me, dammit!

you caught me off guard with that, nicely done

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[GTAVercetti 0]

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Rob, I wasn't laughing out loud, I was lolling. Can't you fucking read? You fucking retard! Take off that hat! Don't you know what lolling is? You should try it! It's a shit-roaring good time! lol! Do it! NOW! LOL with me, dammit!

I shall not loll with you this day. Such odiferous behavior offends my sensibilities.

Now, if you will excuse me, I am going to go untwist my panties.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[RhondaLea 3]

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Now, if you will excuse me, I am going to go untwist my panties.

May I help?

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[micro 0]

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Now, if you will excuse me, I am going to go untwist my panties.

May I help?

God, woman, have you NO SHAME????

Wait, dumb question... of course you don't... you post here.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[micro 0]

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Rob, I wasn't laughing out loud, I was lolling. Can't you fucking read? You fucking retard! Take off that hat! Don't you know what lolling is? You should try it! It's a shit-roaring good time! lol! Do it! NOW! LOL with me, dammit!

I shall not loll with you this day. Such odiferous behavior offends my sensibilities.

Now, if you will excuse me, I am going to go untwist my panties.

you have sensibilities?

I knew you wore panties, but... the sensibilities thing is simply shocking.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[GTAVercetti 0]

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you have sensibilities?

I knew you wore panties, but... the sensibilities thing is simply shocking.

Damn, ya got me. I have none.

wait, I mean....

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[micro 0]

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you have sensibilities?

I knew you wore panties, but... the sensibilities thing is simply shocking.

Damn, ya got me. I have none.

wait, I mean....

that means you can LOL w/ me!

C'mon chap, let's goe lolling! and latah we shall go wowing and lmaoing and rofling! it will be a jolly good time!

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[Andy9o8 0]

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I don't agree with the homosexual lifestyle, but that doesn't mean I am against homosexuals themselves. I would love anyone regardless of their lifestyle...but that doesn't mean I have to agree with it.

And therein lies the core fallacy predictably hauled out in defense of homophobia: that homosexuality is a “lifestyle”. See, it’s easy to condemn (or, for that matter, praise) a “lifestyle”, for it implies that it is a choice. An example of a sexual lifestyle that is truly a choice is the decision, whether on religious or other grounds, to remain celibate. But homosexuality is not a “choice”. People don’t rationally “choose” to adopt a lifestyle that in most societies through most of the world will subject them to scorn, discrimination, beatings and murder. Of all the gay people I've known (or my wife has known, and she's worked in the arts, so she knows a lot of gay people), none of them "chose" to be gay; it's simply the way they are. A gay person's homosexuality is hard-wired into the brain in utero, as much as another person’s heterosexuality is. So to use the tired, old slogan that “I don’t dislike homosexuals as people; I just dislike their lifestyle” really misses the point.
“Ah,” the rebuttal will say. “Maybe gay people don’t choose to be gay, but they certainly choose to have gay sex. They can just as easily choose not to have gay sex.”
Wrong. For if it’s the case (as I believe it to be) that homosexuality is hard-wired into the brain from birth, then the only means of sexual activity that is natural for a gay person is gay sex; the only other options are hetero-sex, which to a gay person is unnatural, or celibacy; and if they haven’t taken religious vows, why should they be forced to remain celibate for the rest of their lives merely due to a happenstance of biology?

[windcatcher 0]

Whatever dude, I know what I meant, I'm not going to argue with you.
I'm off to spend the rest of my evening with the beau

Mother to the cutest little thing in the world...

[micro 0]

you and i disagree fundamentally on what "causes" homosexuality.

as it stands, it will, in my world-view, always be a lifestyle choice for someone to live as an active homosexual. I know people who have homosexual orientations who are celibate because they see their orientation as being disordered. I also know people where I live who no longer identify themselves as homosexual at all, but rather as homosexual. But in order to maintain the "party line" of the "lifestyle" very few in the "pro-gay" camp will acknowledge that these people, men and women both, are doing anything but repressing who "they really are. What a load of shit.

One of them, a man named Scott McDermott, is my youngest daughter's Godfather. I can tell you, we've had many indepth conversations on the matter. He has a solidly heterosexual orientation and this is AFTER being solidly entrenched in the homosexual lifestyle all of his adult life and as far back as early highschool.

To address another point you made... the totality of one's being is not tied up solely in their sexual orientation. My friends don't address me as that heterosexual guy, Michael. That is why I can befriend gays and lesbians just as easily as I can a fellow Catholic. I have friends who have drinking problems. Some choose to fight it, some don't. I love both. Does this mean I see the homosexual as somehow broken? Yes. I see the homosexual orientation as unhealthy. Big deal. Are they less of a human because of it? Hell no. Are they less deserving of happiness and love? Hell no. Are they less deserving of compassion? Housing? Insurance benefits? Hell no. I have plenty of brokeness as well... I used to be a drug addict... I can easily go back to that, at any time. I still am a lousy husband. I still hate my father. And I have my own sexual issues to deal with. So, I guess I'm just as human as the homosexual. I'm no better just b/c I claim that "their" lifestyle is wrong.

One last thing you said.... the accusation of homophobia... you couldn't be more wrong. I so hate when people pull that stupid fucking card. Look at the word... what does it mean? Fear of homosexuals. I solidly assure you... I have NO fear of homosexuals, but when people like ME explain my position to people like YOU, that's all you can come up with? Please. My issue with homosexuality is not with people. It's with morals. It's with what sex IS. It's not about fear. Your argument fails because it appeals to emotion.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[narcimund 0]

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Whatever dude, I know what I meant, I'm not going to argue with you.

Let this be a lesson to all of you who write long, complex, thoughtful and complete posts.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[wmw999 2,175]

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as it stands, it will, in my world-view, always be a lifestyle choice for someone to live as an active homosexual.

As it is an active lifestyle choice for someone to live as an active heterosexual.

Right?

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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as it stands, it will, in my world-view, always be a lifestyle choice for someone to live as an active homosexual.

As it is an active lifestyle choice for someone to live as an active heterosexual.

Right?

Wendy W.

yes... i choose to live as an active heterosexual. just as I can choose to be a celibate heterosexual. i'm not a slave to my sexuality. but like I said, I also believe that homosexuality is not healthy. In some cases, I believe it can be changed. In others, especially if they have been active in homosexual activity for a very long time and there is a degree of sexual addition involved, changing the orientation may be as difficult to change as it is for a pedophile to change his "orientation" to children. It's actually quite similar, this "cathexis" of one's sexual attraction for persons or items other than adults of the opposite sex.

I know you and others disagree w/ me and I'm cool with it. If others who are gay don't think it's unhealthy, well there ya go. I'm not responsible for their lives.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[Andy9o8 0]

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Your argument fails because it appeals to emotion.

Well, except for the use of that one single word, it really doesn't; in fact, my post is almost entirely analysis without emotion. Perhaps I might instead have used the term, "relegating homosexuals to second-class citizenship"; but I sense that you're not really trying to get bogged down on semantics. At least you didn't cavalierly dismiss my post with a back-handed non-answer the way Windcatcher did; you presented your own carefully-considered analysis at length, which spoke to some of the same issues I raised, and I respect that.

Our fundamental disagreement is that you consider homosexuality as brokenness as if it were a disease that must either be suffered with as incurable, like multiple sclerosis, or which, given the right treatment, can be successfully de-programmed out of a person, like a gambling addiction or kleptomania. And that, with all due respect to you, is what I think is a load of shit. I stand by my belief that homosexuality is hard-wired into the brain from birth. It's not a disorder; it's simply a less-common orientation occurring in nature, the way left-handedness is as compared to right-handedness. And I guess that pretty much sets the "bookends" for the debate.

[Casurf1978 0]

You pretty much summed up what I believe. It is so much easier to brand it a 'lifestyle' because then it's a choice and they are free to chose right from wrong. It also becomes easier to brand the homosexual a second class citizen because they choose that lifestyle. I find that view pretty hypocritical when you look at the state of heterosexual marriage as a whole. Most end in divorce, infidelity is rampant and we've turned the institution of marriage into prime time reality TV entertainment. Look at shows like the Bachelor, Bachelorette, Who Wants to Marry a Millionaire, Trading Spouses.

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Your argument fails because it appeals to emotion.

Well, except for the use of that one single word, it really doesn't; in fact, my post is almost entirely analysis without emotion. Perhaps I might instead have used the term, "relegating homosexuals to second-class citizenship"; but I sense that you're not really trying to get bogged down on semantics. At least you didn't cavalierly dismiss my post with a back-handed non-answer the way Windcatcher did; you presented your own carefully-considered analysis at length, which spoke to some of the same issues I raised, and I respect that.

Our fundamental disagreement is that you consider homosexuality as brokenness as if it were a disease that must either be suffered with as incurable, like multiple sclerosis, or which, given the right treatment, can be successfully de-programmed out of a person, like a gambling addiction or kleptomania. And that, with all due respect to you, is what I think is a load of shit. I stand by my belief that homosexuality is hard-wired into the brain from birth. It's not a disorder; it's simply a less-common orientation occurring in nature, the way left-handedness is as compared to right-handedness. And I guess that pretty much sets the "bookends" for the debate.

thanks for the reply. i'm glad we can keep this respectful, and i'm sorry for my testiness at the end of my last post.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[micro 0]

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You pretty much summed up what I believe. It is so much easier to brand it a 'lifestyle' because then it's a choice and they are free to chose right from wrong. It also becomes easier to brand the homosexual a second class citizen because they choose that lifestyle. I find that view pretty hypocritical when you look at the state of heterosexual marriage as a whole. Most end in divorce, infidelity is rampant and we've turned the institution of marriage into prime time reality TV entertainment. Look at shows like the Bachelor, Bachelorette, Who Wants to Marry a Millionaire, Trading Spouses.

But what you're describing about heterosexual marriage isn't what it SHOULD be, what it's designed TO be, and very few would argue against THAT. That argument you posit is falacious.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[sundevil777 94]

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One of them, a man named Scott McDermott, is my youngest daughter's Godfather. I can tell you, we've had many indepth conversations on the matter. He has a solidly heterosexual orientation and this is AFTER being solidly entrenched in the homosexual lifestyle all of his adult life and as far back as early highschool.

That person's story is very threatening to gay rights advocates. He must be deluded or brainwashed or something like that. Anyone that has a solidly straight orientation, but later is solidly gay is described to have discovered themselves.

Isn't that simple enough for everyone?

from Andy9o8:

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A gay person's homosexuality is hard-wired into the brain in utero

Gay rights advocates would like this to be true, but it is far from proven. Reasonable scientific critics have found substantial flaws with studies that have made this assertion.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Casurf1978 0]

Do you have any hard scientiic studies? I'm talking from reputable schools.

Here's one from UCLA.
UCLA
http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/501420/

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That person's story is very threatening to gay rights advocates. He must be deluded or brainwashed or something like that. Anyone that has a solidly straight orientation, but later is solidly gay is described to have discovered themselves.

I know more stories where the opposite is true. Also look at the Kinsey Scale. You're segregating everyone into either hetero or homo there is also bisexual.

[Andy9o8 0]

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That person's story is very threatening to gay rights advocates.

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Gay rights advocates would like this to be true.

Presuming to speak for the state of mind of those you disagree with, so as to demonize and dismiss them out of hand, is an age-old rhetorical device which makes for nifty sound bites, but it's little more than a distraction from the actual substance of the debate.