woman, sometimes partly responsible for rape?

[RhondaLea 3]

Quote

I think the original poster's subpoint might have been summed up as "so should women be careful not to come on to certain guys for their own safety?" And the answer there is yes, which is something I think most people understand.

Edited to add - the title of the thread didn't help any, since it seems to indicate that blame is 'shared' somehow, which it isn't.

It doesn't help that this was part of the first post:

I 100% agree that all rape is wrong, but if a woman is dressed like a slut, leads a man on... goes back to his house, then says no to sex right at the last moment..... she must shoulder some of the blame for what happens next

I said that there are two separate issues that are being confused here. And now we have several more. But based on the post that started it all:

This is not a discussion about BDSM (or any kind of sex) games--in that context "no" doesn't mean "no" and that's why God made safe words.

This is not a discussion about crazy people--if you get involved with an emotional game player, nothing you do will ever be right, so even if you hear yes, it's more than likely ten weeks later you're going to hear that "yes" really meant "no." Does that make one a rapist after the fact? Of course not. But it's still not what we're talking about.

This is not a discussion about whether putting oneself in a dangerous discussion is stupid--no question, it's stupid. But even if you're stupid, the blame for another person's actions rests solely on that person.

I find it scary that some guys seem to think that dickteasing somehow entitles them to take what they want, whether it's offered or not.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[juanesky 0]

You see, second subject we are on agreement.

The mindset that all women who cry rape is a victim is coeherent to what most family courts are effectively policing. It is rape if they say no, but there is also there a few who will definitely use that to get "even", or the upper hand.

I don't doubt that most ladies partaking this debate are definitely right on about what rape is. The only issue I see, is that I wish one would come forward and agree that there is also the possibility of a woman abusing the system, just to get even.

I have concerns for those who are rape victims, as well for those who can be abused by the system.


Edited to Add:

Rhonda, I think that people that say no, is no, every woman has a right to say no, regardless of how they are dressed, goes to a guy's/her place. That is rape. I don't think it would be a good idea for a woman to go to a rave party patronized by hell's angels in a bikini though!.

But what about if a couple gets drunk, and wake up in the same bed not remembering much? will you consider that rape? Just curious to hear your answer.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[tigra 0]

I think the number of unreported rapes exceeds by far the number of false accusations. More often than not, it's the rape victim who comes forward that is abused by the system, abused to such a degree that other victims will not come forward.

[RhondaLea 3]

Quote

The only issue I see, is that I wish one would come forward and agree that there is also the possibility of a woman abusing the system, just to get even.

Go start a different thread, and I'll agree with you.

But that's not what this thread started out being about, and it's two separate issues, both of which are wrong, wrong, wrong.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[Gravitymaster 0]

Quote

Oh I see it is better that woman have no responsibility EVER.


You see I think there is a bog difference between a guy who jumps on a woman and rapes her. I say shoot him for all I care. But you can’t live in reality and not think that there is women who abuse the rights given to them by law. The particular incident I brought up was about a young girl who spent all night partying with 2 or 3 guys had sex with them but at one time she said maybe I should go home that was enough to ruin one of the guys life forever.

I think people get carried away it is not black and white I know people love to say it is always the men’s fault, but if she was not forced who can it be rape?


I love how woman like to say they are equals and should be treated that way but have no problem acting like the weak damsel in distress when ever it serves there purpose.

The guys who are sucking up right now make me laugh. You are right gravity the woman should stay away from me because I love my girlfriend and I don’t cheat so trying to be with me would be a waist of time.

I'm sure there are many women reading what you have said that appreciate you honesty.

[juanesky 0]

I can only [armchair quarterbacking] imagine [/armchair quarterbacking] the pains it must be to make it public, and not be heard.

And those horror stories about becoming pregnant after rape. Not having the right to have an abortion under those circumstances is something outrageous.

Yet, there are sometimes, (2 cases I can think off), is one involving Kobe, and the other one Tyson, are suspicious to find rape. One was found guilty and convicted, which after reading some of the details I agree, yet the other one, was more blurry. I don't blame the women in these 2 cases, but they certainly made a very stupid move. I mean what where they thinking?. Darwin's laws unfortunately get enforced most of the time.

And I am talking about not of the victims responsibility for the other person's actions, but the victims responsibility about the consecuences of their actions.

Edited to fix spelling and adding:

If a woman says no, is no, period. If she is a minor, and you are an adult, even if she says she wants you, still is a rape, legally.

And please don't take this comment as if I'm ok with the perpetrators of such a crime, cause I'm not.

The victim will need support, but as a father I have a hard time trying to convey that a lesson must be learned, even if the event is unpleasant.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[Lindsey 0]

I think you're absolutely right about that....and I don't think anyone has argued against that point so far. What I have a problem with is the sentiment that I'll copy again.... Since it's a quote by the original poster, it (to me anyway) changes my perception of his original post.

and you know that for a fact in every case do you? some decent bloke who has been chatting a girl up in a nightclub all night, they both have a snog and a grope... they agree to go back to her/his house, both are drunk... they start heavy petty on the bed, get naked and at the very last moment she says no.. he carries on and she cries rape... thats about power is it? i think those circumstances are purely about sex

I agree completely that women are responsible for the situations they put themselves in and for the consequences of their actions. If you don't want bad things to happen to you, then staying out of certain situations makes a good outcome more likely. As far as going home with men goes....I'd say you'd better know the guy pretty well. It might surprise you who could turn out to be someone willing to hurt you.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[juanesky 0]

Yes, the original claim was definitely rape. But based on his posting traditions, well it definitely speaks volumes.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[TomAiello 25]

Quote

how about you lend me your ass hat?

ArtistCalledIan,

You're out of line.

I've banned you from this forum for 14 days.

I've sent you a PM with further explanation.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Darius11 12]

Quote

You see, second subject we are on agreement.

It is Christmas

Yea man it is all great to say no means no and yes I agree I wouldn't even want to touch a woman in any way if she didn't want me too, But a lot of guys get there lives ruined by some whore who doesn’t want to seem like one.

There are no absolutes. There are guys who are repasts shoot them, but I say if I gets proven that a woman lied because of vengeance or to cover her own ass she should suffer the same punishment.

Rape is a horrible crime there is no questions about that but lying about it is equally wrong in my book.


Edit to add i saw Pretty Persuasion last night so maybe that has effected the way i feel a bit

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Lindsey 0]

Lying about being the victim of any crime is wrong. You're the only one talking about that issue though....different topic.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[juanesky 0]

Go to any Mass family court.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[AlexCrowley 0]

tell me about it.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[juanesky 0]

So you got nipped in the butt?

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[AlexCrowley 0]

hah. MA family court - watching 4 of my friends go through divorces that included some of the most insane anti-male stuff that you wouldnt think possible.

criminal records, anger management courses, bankruptcy, all on the basis of a woman feeling vindictive.

Totally unfair, unbalanced and unfortunately all too common.

As to what you were talking about - sorry, didnt notice, just saw the Mass courts thing.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[yamtx73 0]

Simply put.. no means NO, regardless of the situation. It doesn't matter if she's wearing the tiniest mini ever created with half her ass hanging out and has been teasing you for the last 3 hours... when a woman says no you just don't do it.
IF you 'go for it' and rape her anyway the only person to blame is yourself.

Was she stupid for putting herself in that situation? Absolutely! She should know better.
Is she partially to blame for being raped?
No! (and yes, no really does mean NO)

The only naturals in this sport shit thru feathers...

[RhondaLea 3]

Quote

But what about if a couple gets drunk, and wake up in the same bed not remembering much? will you consider that rape? Just curious to hear your answer.

I read too fast, and I didn't see this.

No, I don't consider that rape.

Nor do I consider it rape if the woman wakes up the next morning and reconsiders what she did the night before.

But I can tell you a story about a 17-year old girl who gave up in the middle because she was outnumbered three-to-one. She just stopped fighting because there was absolutely no way out of the situation. Further, because she didn't expect to be believed, she never said a word about it to anyone who might take action on her behalf.

One of the guys called her the next day to see if she wanted to go out with him that night. He was stunned when she told him to go fuck himself.

It's all about attitudes, and that's what scares me about this thread. Those three guys really didn't think they were doing anything wrong. In their minds, all of her protests and struggles were...I don't know...playacting?...something not to be taken seriously, at the very least. And when she gave up and gave in (think ragdoll), they took it as acquiesence on her part.

Oh...I forgot, at the time she was wearing a blue, floor-length Indian cotton dress. She had gone with a guy she thought was a friend to visit a couple of his friends. And up to that point, she hadn't had sex with any of them.

How stupid was she? I don't know how to answer that.

But I do know what I think rape is, although from that story, and another, similar anecdote involving a 13-year old, I'm pretty sure that a lot of guys don't agree.

To me, that's a pretty frightening thought.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[happythoughts 0]

Quote

It doesn't matter if she's wearing the tiniest mini ever created with half her ass hanging out and has been teasing you for the last 3 hours... when a woman says no you just don't do it.

Rape is not a question of sex, it is a statement of power. It occurs at a very damaging level.

However, the above activities are a game of power. "Teases" will escalate things using all the normal signals and then apply the red light. It is wrong on a different level and doesn't deserve rape as a response.

However, I never hear women complain about it. In fact, I hear women brag about it. Being a tease (tormentor) is a badge of pride. If life were fair, there would be one set of rules, but no one is concerned about that if the rules benefit them.

Yep, I've had a woman tell me how hot she was and get in bed totally nude, and then... "I've changed my mind". She was on the curb in 2 minutes. (Others here know this story.)

Are we discussing the morality of power games?
Why isn't there an overwhelming rejection of this game by the women posters?

[Gravitymaster 0]

Quote

But I do know what I think rape is, although from that story, and another, similar anecdote involving a 13-year old, I'm pretty sure that a lot of guys don't agree.

To me, that's a pretty frightening thought.

I agree. Funny how nobody responded when I asked how they'd like it if they were led on all evening and then found out she was a Transvestite. Wonder how they would like it if 3 hairy, stinky, drunk transvestites with no teeth, plunged all kind of things up their butts all night and then claimed they thought they "wanted it." Wonder how they would feel if the Transvestites said they thought no meant yes?

Sort of changes ones perspective when the situation is reversed.

[RhondaLea 3]

Quote

Are we discussing the morality of power games?
Why isn't there an overwhelming rejection of this game by the women posters?

Depends. Are you talking about real-life? Okay then, rejected. Totally.

But I'll tell you this. I play all kinds of sexually-oriented word games online, and I don't expect anyone to take them as a serious invitation to real-life sex. If they do, then I also expect them to take all the nonsense that other posters post as invitations to...whatever.

That said, I've had it happen that upon meeting me, some men expect I will happily take my clothes off for them, even if none of those were posts directed at them. Worse yet, I had one guy hound me for years because I refused to have phone sex with him--even though I'd never given him any indication that I was interested in anything more than being friends.

If I tease face-to-face, you can be sure that you're getting some, because anything else would just suck--I think that dickteasing in real life is as low as it gets--but I don't think that a post on a newsgroup or internet message board is sufficient to qualify as a power game.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[juanesky 0]

I agree with you 100%, that 17 YO was in a sad situation, and if the guys were over 18 thay had it coming to them.

No one is immune of poor choices.

Merry X-mas

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[yamtx73 0]

Quote

However, the above activities are a game of power. "Teases" will escalate things using all the normal signals and then apply the red light. It is wrong on a different level and doesn't deserve rape as a response.

Are we discussing the morality of power games?
Why isn't there an overwhelming rejection of this game by the women posters?

Teasing is wrong, however it's also legal. I agree, teasing is a power game and power games are pure bullshit.

2 thumbs up for kicking her ass to the curb!

The only naturals in this sport shit thru feathers...

[NWFlyer 2]

Quote

Quote

But what about if a couple gets drunk, and wake up in the same bed not remembering much? will you consider that rape? Just curious to hear your answer.

I read too fast, and I didn't see this.

No, I don't consider that rape.

Nor do I consider it rape if the woman wakes up the next morning and reconsiders what she did the night before.

But there are people who do consider that rape; in my mind, that actually *weakens* the ability for rape to be taken seriously. I was in a situation like this once in college (both legal adults at the time). I woke up with an acquaintance, pretty much knew what had gone on the night before, but it was with a person I would not have chosen to go home with if I were sober. We were both very drunk, and I doubt that either of us had the capacity to make rational decisions.

However, there are many people out there who believe that he raped me because I was too incapacitated to make a decision. Somehow, we're both drunk, but he's supposed to figure out that I am not able to give a reasoned "yes" or "no." Didn't seem fair to me then, doesn't seem fair to me now. I don't believe that was rape.

I tend to agree with a lot of what Katie Roiphe had to say. I read her book years ago, right after I got out of college. She pointed out that by expanding the definition of rape, we were blurring the line between rape and regret. And I think the more we blur it, the more we weaken the case against actual rapists, and the more we open up the opportunity for false accusations of rape (when a woman regrets what she has done). I'd like to go back and read it again; there's a lot of issues on which I think she swings too far, but I did find myself agreeing with a lot of her points.

Fact is, as others have said, the world is a dangerous place, and we as women can choose to put ourselves in situations where victimization is more likely, or we can choose to protect ourselves. I wouldn't say that a woman who has put herself in a bad situation and gets raped is *responsible* for the rape, but I would kind of shake my head and wonder "what was she thinking?"

We want to have our cake and eat it too sometimes; we want to flaunt our femininity and our sexuality; to flirt, to be "out there," etc. I've seen it in this sport in the short time that I've been in it; women who don't realize that they won't always get *only* the positive attention that they crave; often they will get negative attention that they do not want when they are flirty and sexual on the DZ. If we're going to put ourselves "out there" we also have to be willing to stand up and say "Hey, you crossed the line" and not always expect men to "get it."

I've had to do that on a DZ, and it wasn't fun (not anything close to as serious as rape, but a teasing/flirting/physical banter that crossed the line and made me uncomfortable). I was straight up with the guy in question and said "Hey, knock it off, you're making me uncomfortable." He stopped what he was doing, and apologized the next day and we still get along. Hopefully I helped him understand where those lines are and maybe he'll be a little more aware. I could have just been a "victim" there, but I chose to act and speak up.

Was it my "fault" he crossed the line? No. Had he not stopped when I asked him to, would it have been my "fault" that things got worse? No. But I would have done some serious thinking about "what could I have done to prevent this?"

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[tbrown 26]

Quote

Ya know Ian, if there was a vaguely interesting line of thought in what you typed here it's completely lost by the fact that everything else you've posted here has been utter gobshite.

I'd like to seriously request that this Dipshit calledIan be permanently banned. He doesn't contribute jack shit to anything about skydiving and is just writing shit to piss us all off. Well congratulations asshole, you've done it again.

This is not a free country, it's dropzone.com. WHEN is management going to unplug this joker ??

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[Richards 0]

I think RhondaLea sums it up best with;

("I'm saying that there is a disconnect between the two premises that you're trying to relate.

It may be bad for a woman to be a dick tease. The price for that is a reputation as a dick tease. Period.

There is no justification for rape. And if there is no justification for rape, a person cannot be held to blame for being raped no matter what that person does.

The separate issue of taking measures to protect oneself from harm has nothing to do with the original argument you made. That issue applies to many things beyond rape, and it applies to men as well as women. The failure to stay out of bad areas, however, still does not make one responsible for the bad behavior of others. "

rl )

I can't think of a better way of putting it,

Cheers,

Richards

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.