likearock 1 #151 December 9, 2005 QuoteQuoteThe only time I can think of Bipolar illness being the reason for this person's behavior is if he was in an active manic phase...and a bit psycotic. What was his wife thinking having him travel on an airplane if he was acutely ill? And if that was the case, then she's the ass. It would be nice if these marshalls would've subdued him in some other way. I really think that had they tried they probably could've stopped him without killing him. But I wasn't there. I'd rather him be shot and killed than blow up a plane. If he threatened the flight so immediately that there simply was no other way to end his threat than to kill him, then I'm glad they killed him. It does seem that, like most things, there are other options besides the extremes. Sometimes we just don't want to work hard enough to find out what those are. linz Agree on general points but this guy said he had a bomb in his backpack, he attempted to reach inside the backpack ...three in the chest sounds appropriate to me. Do we know that he actually said that? From what I've heard only the air marshals themselves are making that claim. Apparently none of the passengers have corroborated this so far. While I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt, there is a possibility the guy was just acting really strange and they shot him thinking the worst. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #152 December 9, 2005 Quote"bungalow" is also a funny word That's 'cos it's Hindi/Gujarati, as opposed to English. My personal favorite is "condiments". Latin origins so it ought to be more familiar to us... still feels funny though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites speedy 0 #153 December 9, 2005 After reading most of this thread it amazes me how people are willing to accept this tragedy. Airport security is totally screwed up. The terrorist have won and have even got us killing ourselves to save them the trouble. Here are some cases of airport security gone mad. You go through security for you flight to the U.S and notice in that clear Perspex box the is a brightly colored water pistol. A kids toy and recognisable as a toy. This has been confiscated. However, an hour or so into the flight I am given a metal knife and fork to eat my meal with. Airport security returning fro m the U.S. My wife was informed that she could not take her cigarette lighter onto the aircraft and it was removed from her bag by the security officer. The other two lighters he left in the bag. I watched people practically taking all their clothes off to go through security without even being asked to. Think back to 9/11. The terrorist could in theory have hijacked the plane without anything but their bare hands. Into the cockpit, hit the pilot until he gives up the controls, and then take over the plane. It has all gone too far. I would take the no security airline someone mentioned earlier any day. Dave Fallschirmsport Marl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites artistcalledian 0 #154 December 9, 2005 hey... better safe than sorry ...... if you're now a paranoid nation ________________________________________ drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #155 December 9, 2005 QuoteQuote> this started out as a silly theory. You don't want to throw out a "The wife hit the lawsuit lottery jackpot" just for conversation's sake. People will get all bent out of shape, call you insensitive and start the personal attacks. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lisamariewillbe 1 #156 December 9, 2005 Airport security aka TSA is different then air marshalls ... this man was acting as if in a bag he had a bomb .... I dont get why this is up for debate... cops arent taught shoot to hurt, they are taught shoot to kill... it takes alot to get them to that point but if they draw their weapons because someone is putting thousands in danger of their life, I say KUDOS for doing what they were trained to do and putting a couple rounds in the mans chest. If you tase them they could still function to detonate a bomb, and he didnt listen to the demands of the air marshalls, he was warned what would happen... case closed... as long as it went down how it is being reported Your crap about TSA security has nothing to do with Air Marshalls, they are trained for two different jobs and TSA in my opinion is a joke anyways...Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites timasch 0 #157 December 9, 2005 QuoteI agree that the cop did his job. By the way, technically speaking, he was an air marshall. Air marshalls receive some of the most stringent small fire-arms training, so you can bet your ass they won't miss when they fire. This is especially useful in case a situation flares up while the plane is enroute AND pressurized... Weapons accuracy is not their bosses first priority. It ranks 24th on a list of 24 items they are evaluated on. "One checklist that is used to evaluate marshal performance leads with "compliance with dress code" and "compliance with grooming standards." The last item, No. 24, is "weapon handling skills and safety." " http://www.forbes.com/entrepreneurs/feeds/ap/2005/12/09/ap2381208.html So, just to keep the discussion going. Lets see if I can recap this. Passengers are reboarding after having their bags inspected by customs. Agitated Man rushing up center of plane. Worried wife following him, yelling that he was suffering from Bipolar Disorder and needed to get out of plane. Man enters jetway with enthusiastic fed following. They order him to stop and he reaches for his bag. They shoot him, then realize that they need a more valid reason than "failure to comply with a lawful order by a law inforcement officer". They think they heard him say something about a bomb. No one else hears him say that. Is that about what has been reported? To me the following would indicate that caution should be used before using deadly force. 1. The bag had just been inspected, so probably did not have unauthorized items. 2. The wife informed them about why hubby was acting that way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #158 December 9, 2005 The cops are commendable on taking the right action and having the nerve to do it in a tight situation. As a completely separate issue: The overall situation is a sad accident. If this guy refused his meds and drove a car over a pedestrian is just as possible as this situation (his condition would have caused a death), but so many would be reacting differently. At least in this case, the one responsible died instead of taking another life. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,683 #159 December 9, 2005 QuoteThe cops are commendable on taking the right action and having the nerve to do it in a tight situation. As a completely separate issue: The overall situation is a sad accident. If this guy refused his meds and drove a car over a pedestrian is just as possible as this situation (his condition would have caused a death), but so many would be reacting differently. At least in this case, the one responsible died instead of taking another life. Seems to me that a lot depends on whether he really did say he had a bomb, or if that's just a CYA from the feds. I'm sure the truth will eventually get out.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #160 December 9, 2005 QuoteSeems to me that a lot depends on whether he really did say he had a bomb, or if that's just a CYA from the feds. I'm sure the truth will eventually get out. Until then, your conspiracy theories will prosper. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,683 #161 December 9, 2005 QuoteQuoteSeems to me that a lot depends on whether he really did say he had a bomb, or if that's just a CYA from the feds. I'm sure the truth will eventually get out. Until then, your conspiracy theories will prosper. I haven't offered a theory.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #162 December 9, 2005 QuoteQuoteSeems to me that a lot depends on whether he really did say he had a bomb, or if that's just a CYA from the feds. I'm sure the truth will eventually get out. Until then, your conspiracy theories will prosper. he didn't offer a theory ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #163 December 9, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteSeems to me that a lot depends on whether he really did say he had a bomb, or if that's just a CYA from the feds. I'm sure the truth will eventually get out. Until then, your conspiracy theories will prosper. I haven't offered a theory. You don't want to take credit for what you just stated above? Is that just your "unofficial" theory? The official one will come out later? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freethefly 6 #164 December 9, 2005 QuoteDarwinism is alive and well. Bet he didn't think they'd pop a cap in his stupid ass though... "stupid ass". The man suffered from a disorder that was not of his doing. How insensitive have people become? This situation could had been handled far differant than it had been. How stupid are the air marshalls is my question. How incapable are the baggage screeners to allow a person with a bomb in a carryon bag to board? Did the air marshalsl believe that this man actually walked through security with a bomb? The Federal government is the real danger. Not the poor bi-polar individual who is having an episode. Why did they have to shoot the man several times? Why not one shot to incapacitate him? The air marshalls in my opinion are responsiable for this mans untimely death as they were unable to handle the situation properly. The Federal government is responsiable for this mans untimely death as they are not capable of properly training personnel to handle such situations."...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites justinb138 0 #165 December 9, 2005 Quote "stupid ass". The man suffered from a disorder that was not of his doing. How insensitive have people become? It is unfortunate. Quote This situation could had been handled far differant than it had been. It could have also turned out far different than it did. Quote How stupid are the air marshalls is my question. Not too stupid. Quote How incapable are the baggage screeners to allow a person with a bomb in a carryon bag to board? How would it be possible to know that the bag went past the baggage screeners at the time? Quote Did the air marshalsl believe that this man actually walked through security with a bomb? Obviously they did, after all, he said he had a bomb didn't he? Quote The Federal government is the real danger. Not the poor bi-polar individual who is having an episode. The feredal goverment wasn't the one running down the aisle of a plane yelling they had a bomb. Quote Why did they have to shoot the man several times? An almost-dead person can activate a bomb, a dead person can't. Simple really. Quote Why not one shot to incapacitate him? See above. Quote The air marshalls in my opinion are responsiable for this mans untimely death as they were unable to handle the situation properly. I'd say they handled it they only way they could have. They didn't know he didn't have a bomb, he wouldn't respond when they told him to stop, and there was no way they could have known he was a nut. It's not their responsibility to make sure he takes his meds and doesn't freak out. Quote The Federal government is responsiable for this mans untimely death as they are not capable of properly training personnel to handle such situations. What would you be saying if he actually had a bomb and detonated it because they didn't shoot him because of his condition? His mental condition doesn't make him less likely to have a bomb than anyone else. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gmanpilot 0 #166 December 9, 2005 QuoteLets see if I can recap this...They shoot him, then realize that they need a more valid reason than "failure to comply with a lawful order by a law inforcement officer". They think they heard him say something about a bomb. No one else hears him say that. Recap of what?? Sheesh. From the NY Times: The Miami-Dade Police Department, which is investigating whether the shooting was justified, said it had interviewed more than 100 passengers and crew members from Flight 924 and that preliminary evidence suggested Mr. Alpizar had repeatedly refused to surrender. Chief Willie Marshall... said Mr. Alpizar...reached into a bag that was "strapped to his chest." That was when both air marshals opened fire with multiple shots, he said. The marshals said Mr. Alpizar had said he had a bomb... Mark Raynor, an American Airlines pilot and local union official in Miami, said an account he heard from the plane's captain had supported law enforcement accounts of the shooting. Mr. Raynor said the captain had been outside the cockpit at the time of the shooting and witnessed it... Chief Marshall said detectives were waiting to interview the two air marshals. Unless something changes, I'll prefer to trust the Air Marshal's and pilot's ability to remain situationally aware and recall what was said above the recollection of a bunch of soccer Mom's and insurance salesmen. QuoteTo me the following would indicate that caution should be used before using deadly force. 1. The bag had just been inspected, so probably did not have unauthorized items. 2. The wife informed them about why hubby was acting that way. Caution should always be used peoples lives are at risk. 1. Screeners miss prohibited items every day, and the only person who actually knew what was in the bag reportedly said there was a bomb in it. 2. The wife could have been an accomplice, besides, the guys with the guns were probably focused on the guy who said he had a bomb in his bag, who was refusing to comply with commands, and then he goes for something in his bag....the one he says he has a bomb in. Your version and *recap* of the incident appears to be decidedly skewed._________________________________________ -There's always free cheese in a mouse trap. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites speedy 0 #167 December 9, 2005 You are all still missing the point. The chances that the guy really had a bomb was practically Nil. Why are we shooting our own citizens just because they say something? The terrorists have won. Dave Fallschirmsport Marl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freethefly 6 #168 December 9, 2005 Quote This situation could had been handled far differant than it had been. It could have also turned out far different than it did. Had they properly assessed the situation, this man could had just been incapacitated Quote How incapable are the baggage screeners to allow a person with a bomb in a carryon bag to board? How would it be possible to know that the bag went past the baggage screeners at the time? QuoteHow could the bag NOT go through screening before getting on the plane. The last time I flew commercial, security spent nearly 30 minutes looking at a Cross mechanical pencil on the x-ray in my briefcase before asking me to open it. Quote Did the air marshalsl believe that this man actually walked through security with a bomb? Obviously they did, after all, he said he had a bomb didn't he? So security at check in is at fault? If a person does get on with a bomb this says that the whole system is flawed. Quote The Federal government is the real danger. Not the poor bi-polar individual who is having an episode. The feredal goverment wasn't the one running down the aisle of a plane yelling they had a bomb. QuoteSo far no witness has stated that they heard any mention of a bomb. Again, how would he had gotten a bomb on board? Nearly impossiable to do through general boarding. Quote Why did they have to shoot the man several times? An almost-dead person can activate a bomb, a dead person can't. Simple really. Not simple, really. Quote Why not one shot to incapacitate him? See above. Quote Again, why not incapacitate. Quote The air marshalls in my opinion are responsiable for this mans untimely death as they were unable to handle the situation properly. I'd say they handled it they only way they could have. They didn't know he didn't have a bomb, he wouldn't respond when they told him to stop, and there was no way they could have known he was a nut. It's not their responsibility to make sure he takes his meds and doesn't freak out. The mans wife was screaming that he was bi-polar. The air marshalls paid no mind to information that would had brought a differant conclusion to this unfortunate event. I only hope that I do not find myself in an unfortunate encounter with Federal Hitmen. Quote The Federal government is responsiable for this mans untimely death as they are not capable of properly training personnel to handle such situations. What would you be saying if he actually had a bomb and detonated it because they didn't shoot him because of his condition? His mental condition doesn't make him less likely to have a bomb than anyone else. QuoteWhat would I say? I would say that the screeners should pay more attention to what they are screening. The real truth is that the Feds, once again screwed up in a bad way. The whole situation is sad for everyone involved. Very sad."...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #169 December 9, 2005 QuoteYou are all still missing the point. here's a totally unrelated quote - "The only common factor in all your failed relationships, is you" here's another - In a baseball game, when the batters all miss, they credit the pitcher, not the entire batting lineup...... Sorry, I got off topic and brought up stuff totally unrelated to the quote above. What were we talking about? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites speedy 0 #170 December 9, 2005 QuoteQuoteYou are all still missing the point. here's a totally unrelated quote - "The only common factor in all your failed relationships, is you" Was that a personal attack, thinly veiled as an unrelated quote? Look, the cop may have done what was asked of him, but that does not make it right. Why the hell does everyone think that the situation was so threatening. The brits shoot people trying to catch trains. The Americans shoot people running away from planes. Who needs terrorists? Dave Fallschirmsport Marl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #171 December 9, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteYou are all still missing the point. here's a totally unrelated quote - "The only common factor in all your failed relationships, is you" Was that a personal attack, thinly veiled as an unrelated quote? no, actually I thought it was rather clever. If this board gets you spun up, then I suggest we go get a few tequila shots and then make fun of clumsy people. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites speedy 0 #172 December 9, 2005 This board does not get me spun up. But what is happening at airports does. And the brits want to extend all that crap to trains. Dave Fallschirmsport Marl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lisamariewillbe 1 #173 December 9, 2005 So would it have been better for them to believe the guy had a mental problem and allow him to detonate a bomp and kill thousands of people? I mean by your thoughts, since it wasnt a bomb the marshalls were out of line, but Im sorry if someone is yelling at me to "drop the bag or Ill shoot, drop the bag or ill shoot , drop the bag or Ill shoot" Im dropping the fucking bag not go to reach into it, I worked at the federal law enforcement training center... I have been on roles with air marshalls in real planes, and Im telling you, pretending it was scarey enough... the reality is , the guy was warned at least 3 times that they would shoot... they did their job, they shot to kill... thats what they were trained to do and regardless that the aftermath shows he didnt have a bomb, the air marshalls had to believe him when he said he had one when combined with his erratic behavior... Hell walk into any airport, there are signs everywhere, that all threats are treated serious and it is a federal offence...Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #174 December 9, 2005 Later, it's more fun swapping jibes with kallend and rebirth today. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites artistcalledian 0 #175 December 9, 2005 America is in the grip of paranoia at the moment about terrorist attacks, gung ho people like this air marshall are going to shoot first and ask questions later.... and they will always have a little legion of fans backing them up saying "yes but what if it had turned out to be true, you can't take any chances" Welcome to your own world of fucked up paranoid actions, its not going to get any better for you, things like this are going to get more common If people genuinly think its ok to go shooting people who have already gone through security and then don't comply with instructions (who the fuck do the police and "air marshals" in america think they are anyway? god ? ) then i feel sorry for them, it must be shit living in America since 11/9 fucked your heads up________________________________________ drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Next Page 7 of 10 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. 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speedy 0 #153 December 9, 2005 After reading most of this thread it amazes me how people are willing to accept this tragedy. Airport security is totally screwed up. The terrorist have won and have even got us killing ourselves to save them the trouble. Here are some cases of airport security gone mad. You go through security for you flight to the U.S and notice in that clear Perspex box the is a brightly colored water pistol. A kids toy and recognisable as a toy. This has been confiscated. However, an hour or so into the flight I am given a metal knife and fork to eat my meal with. Airport security returning fro m the U.S. My wife was informed that she could not take her cigarette lighter onto the aircraft and it was removed from her bag by the security officer. The other two lighters he left in the bag. I watched people practically taking all their clothes off to go through security without even being asked to. Think back to 9/11. The terrorist could in theory have hijacked the plane without anything but their bare hands. Into the cockpit, hit the pilot until he gives up the controls, and then take over the plane. It has all gone too far. I would take the no security airline someone mentioned earlier any day. Dave Fallschirmsport Marl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
artistcalledian 0 #154 December 9, 2005 hey... better safe than sorry ...... if you're now a paranoid nation ________________________________________ drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #155 December 9, 2005 QuoteQuote> this started out as a silly theory. You don't want to throw out a "The wife hit the lawsuit lottery jackpot" just for conversation's sake. People will get all bent out of shape, call you insensitive and start the personal attacks. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lisamariewillbe 1 #156 December 9, 2005 Airport security aka TSA is different then air marshalls ... this man was acting as if in a bag he had a bomb .... I dont get why this is up for debate... cops arent taught shoot to hurt, they are taught shoot to kill... it takes alot to get them to that point but if they draw their weapons because someone is putting thousands in danger of their life, I say KUDOS for doing what they were trained to do and putting a couple rounds in the mans chest. If you tase them they could still function to detonate a bomb, and he didnt listen to the demands of the air marshalls, he was warned what would happen... case closed... as long as it went down how it is being reported Your crap about TSA security has nothing to do with Air Marshalls, they are trained for two different jobs and TSA in my opinion is a joke anyways...Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites timasch 0 #157 December 9, 2005 QuoteI agree that the cop did his job. By the way, technically speaking, he was an air marshall. Air marshalls receive some of the most stringent small fire-arms training, so you can bet your ass they won't miss when they fire. This is especially useful in case a situation flares up while the plane is enroute AND pressurized... Weapons accuracy is not their bosses first priority. It ranks 24th on a list of 24 items they are evaluated on. "One checklist that is used to evaluate marshal performance leads with "compliance with dress code" and "compliance with grooming standards." The last item, No. 24, is "weapon handling skills and safety." " http://www.forbes.com/entrepreneurs/feeds/ap/2005/12/09/ap2381208.html So, just to keep the discussion going. Lets see if I can recap this. Passengers are reboarding after having their bags inspected by customs. Agitated Man rushing up center of plane. Worried wife following him, yelling that he was suffering from Bipolar Disorder and needed to get out of plane. Man enters jetway with enthusiastic fed following. They order him to stop and he reaches for his bag. They shoot him, then realize that they need a more valid reason than "failure to comply with a lawful order by a law inforcement officer". They think they heard him say something about a bomb. No one else hears him say that. Is that about what has been reported? To me the following would indicate that caution should be used before using deadly force. 1. The bag had just been inspected, so probably did not have unauthorized items. 2. The wife informed them about why hubby was acting that way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #158 December 9, 2005 The cops are commendable on taking the right action and having the nerve to do it in a tight situation. As a completely separate issue: The overall situation is a sad accident. If this guy refused his meds and drove a car over a pedestrian is just as possible as this situation (his condition would have caused a death), but so many would be reacting differently. At least in this case, the one responsible died instead of taking another life. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,683 #159 December 9, 2005 QuoteThe cops are commendable on taking the right action and having the nerve to do it in a tight situation. As a completely separate issue: The overall situation is a sad accident. If this guy refused his meds and drove a car over a pedestrian is just as possible as this situation (his condition would have caused a death), but so many would be reacting differently. At least in this case, the one responsible died instead of taking another life. Seems to me that a lot depends on whether he really did say he had a bomb, or if that's just a CYA from the feds. I'm sure the truth will eventually get out.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #160 December 9, 2005 QuoteSeems to me that a lot depends on whether he really did say he had a bomb, or if that's just a CYA from the feds. I'm sure the truth will eventually get out. Until then, your conspiracy theories will prosper. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,683 #161 December 9, 2005 QuoteQuoteSeems to me that a lot depends on whether he really did say he had a bomb, or if that's just a CYA from the feds. I'm sure the truth will eventually get out. Until then, your conspiracy theories will prosper. I haven't offered a theory.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #162 December 9, 2005 QuoteQuoteSeems to me that a lot depends on whether he really did say he had a bomb, or if that's just a CYA from the feds. I'm sure the truth will eventually get out. Until then, your conspiracy theories will prosper. he didn't offer a theory ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #163 December 9, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteSeems to me that a lot depends on whether he really did say he had a bomb, or if that's just a CYA from the feds. I'm sure the truth will eventually get out. Until then, your conspiracy theories will prosper. I haven't offered a theory. You don't want to take credit for what you just stated above? Is that just your "unofficial" theory? The official one will come out later? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freethefly 6 #164 December 9, 2005 QuoteDarwinism is alive and well. Bet he didn't think they'd pop a cap in his stupid ass though... "stupid ass". The man suffered from a disorder that was not of his doing. How insensitive have people become? This situation could had been handled far differant than it had been. How stupid are the air marshalls is my question. How incapable are the baggage screeners to allow a person with a bomb in a carryon bag to board? Did the air marshalsl believe that this man actually walked through security with a bomb? The Federal government is the real danger. Not the poor bi-polar individual who is having an episode. Why did they have to shoot the man several times? Why not one shot to incapacitate him? The air marshalls in my opinion are responsiable for this mans untimely death as they were unable to handle the situation properly. The Federal government is responsiable for this mans untimely death as they are not capable of properly training personnel to handle such situations."...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites justinb138 0 #165 December 9, 2005 Quote "stupid ass". The man suffered from a disorder that was not of his doing. How insensitive have people become? It is unfortunate. Quote This situation could had been handled far differant than it had been. It could have also turned out far different than it did. Quote How stupid are the air marshalls is my question. Not too stupid. Quote How incapable are the baggage screeners to allow a person with a bomb in a carryon bag to board? How would it be possible to know that the bag went past the baggage screeners at the time? Quote Did the air marshalsl believe that this man actually walked through security with a bomb? Obviously they did, after all, he said he had a bomb didn't he? Quote The Federal government is the real danger. Not the poor bi-polar individual who is having an episode. The feredal goverment wasn't the one running down the aisle of a plane yelling they had a bomb. Quote Why did they have to shoot the man several times? An almost-dead person can activate a bomb, a dead person can't. Simple really. Quote Why not one shot to incapacitate him? See above. Quote The air marshalls in my opinion are responsiable for this mans untimely death as they were unable to handle the situation properly. I'd say they handled it they only way they could have. They didn't know he didn't have a bomb, he wouldn't respond when they told him to stop, and there was no way they could have known he was a nut. It's not their responsibility to make sure he takes his meds and doesn't freak out. Quote The Federal government is responsiable for this mans untimely death as they are not capable of properly training personnel to handle such situations. What would you be saying if he actually had a bomb and detonated it because they didn't shoot him because of his condition? His mental condition doesn't make him less likely to have a bomb than anyone else. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gmanpilot 0 #166 December 9, 2005 QuoteLets see if I can recap this...They shoot him, then realize that they need a more valid reason than "failure to comply with a lawful order by a law inforcement officer". They think they heard him say something about a bomb. No one else hears him say that. Recap of what?? Sheesh. From the NY Times: The Miami-Dade Police Department, which is investigating whether the shooting was justified, said it had interviewed more than 100 passengers and crew members from Flight 924 and that preliminary evidence suggested Mr. Alpizar had repeatedly refused to surrender. Chief Willie Marshall... said Mr. Alpizar...reached into a bag that was "strapped to his chest." That was when both air marshals opened fire with multiple shots, he said. The marshals said Mr. Alpizar had said he had a bomb... Mark Raynor, an American Airlines pilot and local union official in Miami, said an account he heard from the plane's captain had supported law enforcement accounts of the shooting. Mr. Raynor said the captain had been outside the cockpit at the time of the shooting and witnessed it... Chief Marshall said detectives were waiting to interview the two air marshals. Unless something changes, I'll prefer to trust the Air Marshal's and pilot's ability to remain situationally aware and recall what was said above the recollection of a bunch of soccer Mom's and insurance salesmen. QuoteTo me the following would indicate that caution should be used before using deadly force. 1. The bag had just been inspected, so probably did not have unauthorized items. 2. The wife informed them about why hubby was acting that way. Caution should always be used peoples lives are at risk. 1. Screeners miss prohibited items every day, and the only person who actually knew what was in the bag reportedly said there was a bomb in it. 2. The wife could have been an accomplice, besides, the guys with the guns were probably focused on the guy who said he had a bomb in his bag, who was refusing to comply with commands, and then he goes for something in his bag....the one he says he has a bomb in. Your version and *recap* of the incident appears to be decidedly skewed._________________________________________ -There's always free cheese in a mouse trap. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites speedy 0 #167 December 9, 2005 You are all still missing the point. The chances that the guy really had a bomb was practically Nil. Why are we shooting our own citizens just because they say something? The terrorists have won. Dave Fallschirmsport Marl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freethefly 6 #168 December 9, 2005 Quote This situation could had been handled far differant than it had been. It could have also turned out far different than it did. Had they properly assessed the situation, this man could had just been incapacitated Quote How incapable are the baggage screeners to allow a person with a bomb in a carryon bag to board? How would it be possible to know that the bag went past the baggage screeners at the time? QuoteHow could the bag NOT go through screening before getting on the plane. The last time I flew commercial, security spent nearly 30 minutes looking at a Cross mechanical pencil on the x-ray in my briefcase before asking me to open it. Quote Did the air marshalsl believe that this man actually walked through security with a bomb? Obviously they did, after all, he said he had a bomb didn't he? So security at check in is at fault? If a person does get on with a bomb this says that the whole system is flawed. Quote The Federal government is the real danger. Not the poor bi-polar individual who is having an episode. The feredal goverment wasn't the one running down the aisle of a plane yelling they had a bomb. QuoteSo far no witness has stated that they heard any mention of a bomb. Again, how would he had gotten a bomb on board? Nearly impossiable to do through general boarding. Quote Why did they have to shoot the man several times? An almost-dead person can activate a bomb, a dead person can't. Simple really. Not simple, really. Quote Why not one shot to incapacitate him? See above. Quote Again, why not incapacitate. Quote The air marshalls in my opinion are responsiable for this mans untimely death as they were unable to handle the situation properly. I'd say they handled it they only way they could have. They didn't know he didn't have a bomb, he wouldn't respond when they told him to stop, and there was no way they could have known he was a nut. It's not their responsibility to make sure he takes his meds and doesn't freak out. The mans wife was screaming that he was bi-polar. The air marshalls paid no mind to information that would had brought a differant conclusion to this unfortunate event. I only hope that I do not find myself in an unfortunate encounter with Federal Hitmen. Quote The Federal government is responsiable for this mans untimely death as they are not capable of properly training personnel to handle such situations. What would you be saying if he actually had a bomb and detonated it because they didn't shoot him because of his condition? His mental condition doesn't make him less likely to have a bomb than anyone else. QuoteWhat would I say? I would say that the screeners should pay more attention to what they are screening. The real truth is that the Feds, once again screwed up in a bad way. The whole situation is sad for everyone involved. Very sad."...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lisamariewillbe 1 #156 December 9, 2005 Airport security aka TSA is different then air marshalls ... this man was acting as if in a bag he had a bomb .... I dont get why this is up for debate... cops arent taught shoot to hurt, they are taught shoot to kill... it takes alot to get them to that point but if they draw their weapons because someone is putting thousands in danger of their life, I say KUDOS for doing what they were trained to do and putting a couple rounds in the mans chest. If you tase them they could still function to detonate a bomb, and he didnt listen to the demands of the air marshalls, he was warned what would happen... case closed... as long as it went down how it is being reported Your crap about TSA security has nothing to do with Air Marshalls, they are trained for two different jobs and TSA in my opinion is a joke anyways...Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
timasch 0 #157 December 9, 2005 QuoteI agree that the cop did his job. By the way, technically speaking, he was an air marshall. Air marshalls receive some of the most stringent small fire-arms training, so you can bet your ass they won't miss when they fire. This is especially useful in case a situation flares up while the plane is enroute AND pressurized... Weapons accuracy is not their bosses first priority. It ranks 24th on a list of 24 items they are evaluated on. "One checklist that is used to evaluate marshal performance leads with "compliance with dress code" and "compliance with grooming standards." The last item, No. 24, is "weapon handling skills and safety." " http://www.forbes.com/entrepreneurs/feeds/ap/2005/12/09/ap2381208.html So, just to keep the discussion going. Lets see if I can recap this. Passengers are reboarding after having their bags inspected by customs. Agitated Man rushing up center of plane. Worried wife following him, yelling that he was suffering from Bipolar Disorder and needed to get out of plane. Man enters jetway with enthusiastic fed following. They order him to stop and he reaches for his bag. They shoot him, then realize that they need a more valid reason than "failure to comply with a lawful order by a law inforcement officer". They think they heard him say something about a bomb. No one else hears him say that. Is that about what has been reported? To me the following would indicate that caution should be used before using deadly force. 1. The bag had just been inspected, so probably did not have unauthorized items. 2. The wife informed them about why hubby was acting that way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #158 December 9, 2005 The cops are commendable on taking the right action and having the nerve to do it in a tight situation. As a completely separate issue: The overall situation is a sad accident. If this guy refused his meds and drove a car over a pedestrian is just as possible as this situation (his condition would have caused a death), but so many would be reacting differently. At least in this case, the one responsible died instead of taking another life. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,683 #159 December 9, 2005 QuoteThe cops are commendable on taking the right action and having the nerve to do it in a tight situation. As a completely separate issue: The overall situation is a sad accident. If this guy refused his meds and drove a car over a pedestrian is just as possible as this situation (his condition would have caused a death), but so many would be reacting differently. At least in this case, the one responsible died instead of taking another life. Seems to me that a lot depends on whether he really did say he had a bomb, or if that's just a CYA from the feds. I'm sure the truth will eventually get out.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #160 December 9, 2005 QuoteSeems to me that a lot depends on whether he really did say he had a bomb, or if that's just a CYA from the feds. I'm sure the truth will eventually get out. Until then, your conspiracy theories will prosper. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,683 #161 December 9, 2005 QuoteQuoteSeems to me that a lot depends on whether he really did say he had a bomb, or if that's just a CYA from the feds. I'm sure the truth will eventually get out. Until then, your conspiracy theories will prosper. I haven't offered a theory.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #162 December 9, 2005 QuoteQuoteSeems to me that a lot depends on whether he really did say he had a bomb, or if that's just a CYA from the feds. I'm sure the truth will eventually get out. Until then, your conspiracy theories will prosper. he didn't offer a theory ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #163 December 9, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteSeems to me that a lot depends on whether he really did say he had a bomb, or if that's just a CYA from the feds. I'm sure the truth will eventually get out. Until then, your conspiracy theories will prosper. I haven't offered a theory. You don't want to take credit for what you just stated above? Is that just your "unofficial" theory? The official one will come out later? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freethefly 6 #164 December 9, 2005 QuoteDarwinism is alive and well. Bet he didn't think they'd pop a cap in his stupid ass though... "stupid ass". The man suffered from a disorder that was not of his doing. How insensitive have people become? This situation could had been handled far differant than it had been. How stupid are the air marshalls is my question. How incapable are the baggage screeners to allow a person with a bomb in a carryon bag to board? Did the air marshalsl believe that this man actually walked through security with a bomb? The Federal government is the real danger. Not the poor bi-polar individual who is having an episode. Why did they have to shoot the man several times? Why not one shot to incapacitate him? The air marshalls in my opinion are responsiable for this mans untimely death as they were unable to handle the situation properly. The Federal government is responsiable for this mans untimely death as they are not capable of properly training personnel to handle such situations."...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #165 December 9, 2005 Quote "stupid ass". The man suffered from a disorder that was not of his doing. How insensitive have people become? It is unfortunate. Quote This situation could had been handled far differant than it had been. It could have also turned out far different than it did. Quote How stupid are the air marshalls is my question. Not too stupid. Quote How incapable are the baggage screeners to allow a person with a bomb in a carryon bag to board? How would it be possible to know that the bag went past the baggage screeners at the time? Quote Did the air marshalsl believe that this man actually walked through security with a bomb? Obviously they did, after all, he said he had a bomb didn't he? Quote The Federal government is the real danger. Not the poor bi-polar individual who is having an episode. The feredal goverment wasn't the one running down the aisle of a plane yelling they had a bomb. Quote Why did they have to shoot the man several times? An almost-dead person can activate a bomb, a dead person can't. Simple really. Quote Why not one shot to incapacitate him? See above. Quote The air marshalls in my opinion are responsiable for this mans untimely death as they were unable to handle the situation properly. I'd say they handled it they only way they could have. They didn't know he didn't have a bomb, he wouldn't respond when they told him to stop, and there was no way they could have known he was a nut. It's not their responsibility to make sure he takes his meds and doesn't freak out. Quote The Federal government is responsiable for this mans untimely death as they are not capable of properly training personnel to handle such situations. What would you be saying if he actually had a bomb and detonated it because they didn't shoot him because of his condition? His mental condition doesn't make him less likely to have a bomb than anyone else. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gmanpilot 0 #166 December 9, 2005 QuoteLets see if I can recap this...They shoot him, then realize that they need a more valid reason than "failure to comply with a lawful order by a law inforcement officer". They think they heard him say something about a bomb. No one else hears him say that. Recap of what?? Sheesh. From the NY Times: The Miami-Dade Police Department, which is investigating whether the shooting was justified, said it had interviewed more than 100 passengers and crew members from Flight 924 and that preliminary evidence suggested Mr. Alpizar had repeatedly refused to surrender. Chief Willie Marshall... said Mr. Alpizar...reached into a bag that was "strapped to his chest." That was when both air marshals opened fire with multiple shots, he said. The marshals said Mr. Alpizar had said he had a bomb... Mark Raynor, an American Airlines pilot and local union official in Miami, said an account he heard from the plane's captain had supported law enforcement accounts of the shooting. Mr. Raynor said the captain had been outside the cockpit at the time of the shooting and witnessed it... Chief Marshall said detectives were waiting to interview the two air marshals. Unless something changes, I'll prefer to trust the Air Marshal's and pilot's ability to remain situationally aware and recall what was said above the recollection of a bunch of soccer Mom's and insurance salesmen. QuoteTo me the following would indicate that caution should be used before using deadly force. 1. The bag had just been inspected, so probably did not have unauthorized items. 2. The wife informed them about why hubby was acting that way. Caution should always be used peoples lives are at risk. 1. Screeners miss prohibited items every day, and the only person who actually knew what was in the bag reportedly said there was a bomb in it. 2. The wife could have been an accomplice, besides, the guys with the guns were probably focused on the guy who said he had a bomb in his bag, who was refusing to comply with commands, and then he goes for something in his bag....the one he says he has a bomb in. Your version and *recap* of the incident appears to be decidedly skewed._________________________________________ -There's always free cheese in a mouse trap. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
speedy 0 #167 December 9, 2005 You are all still missing the point. The chances that the guy really had a bomb was practically Nil. Why are we shooting our own citizens just because they say something? The terrorists have won. Dave Fallschirmsport Marl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freethefly 6 #168 December 9, 2005 Quote This situation could had been handled far differant than it had been. It could have also turned out far different than it did. Had they properly assessed the situation, this man could had just been incapacitated Quote How incapable are the baggage screeners to allow a person with a bomb in a carryon bag to board? How would it be possible to know that the bag went past the baggage screeners at the time? QuoteHow could the bag NOT go through screening before getting on the plane. The last time I flew commercial, security spent nearly 30 minutes looking at a Cross mechanical pencil on the x-ray in my briefcase before asking me to open it. Quote Did the air marshalsl believe that this man actually walked through security with a bomb? Obviously they did, after all, he said he had a bomb didn't he? So security at check in is at fault? If a person does get on with a bomb this says that the whole system is flawed. Quote The Federal government is the real danger. Not the poor bi-polar individual who is having an episode. The feredal goverment wasn't the one running down the aisle of a plane yelling they had a bomb. QuoteSo far no witness has stated that they heard any mention of a bomb. Again, how would he had gotten a bomb on board? Nearly impossiable to do through general boarding. Quote Why did they have to shoot the man several times? An almost-dead person can activate a bomb, a dead person can't. Simple really. Not simple, really. Quote Why not one shot to incapacitate him? See above. Quote Again, why not incapacitate. Quote The air marshalls in my opinion are responsiable for this mans untimely death as they were unable to handle the situation properly. I'd say they handled it they only way they could have. They didn't know he didn't have a bomb, he wouldn't respond when they told him to stop, and there was no way they could have known he was a nut. It's not their responsibility to make sure he takes his meds and doesn't freak out. The mans wife was screaming that he was bi-polar. The air marshalls paid no mind to information that would had brought a differant conclusion to this unfortunate event. I only hope that I do not find myself in an unfortunate encounter with Federal Hitmen. Quote The Federal government is responsiable for this mans untimely death as they are not capable of properly training personnel to handle such situations. What would you be saying if he actually had a bomb and detonated it because they didn't shoot him because of his condition? His mental condition doesn't make him less likely to have a bomb than anyone else. QuoteWhat would I say? I would say that the screeners should pay more attention to what they are screening. The real truth is that the Feds, once again screwed up in a bad way. The whole situation is sad for everyone involved. Very sad."...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #169 December 9, 2005 QuoteYou are all still missing the point. here's a totally unrelated quote - "The only common factor in all your failed relationships, is you" here's another - In a baseball game, when the batters all miss, they credit the pitcher, not the entire batting lineup...... Sorry, I got off topic and brought up stuff totally unrelated to the quote above. What were we talking about? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
speedy 0 #170 December 9, 2005 QuoteQuoteYou are all still missing the point. here's a totally unrelated quote - "The only common factor in all your failed relationships, is you" Was that a personal attack, thinly veiled as an unrelated quote? Look, the cop may have done what was asked of him, but that does not make it right. Why the hell does everyone think that the situation was so threatening. The brits shoot people trying to catch trains. The Americans shoot people running away from planes. Who needs terrorists? Dave Fallschirmsport Marl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #171 December 9, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteYou are all still missing the point. here's a totally unrelated quote - "The only common factor in all your failed relationships, is you" Was that a personal attack, thinly veiled as an unrelated quote? no, actually I thought it was rather clever. If this board gets you spun up, then I suggest we go get a few tequila shots and then make fun of clumsy people. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
speedy 0 #172 December 9, 2005 This board does not get me spun up. But what is happening at airports does. And the brits want to extend all that crap to trains. Dave Fallschirmsport Marl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lisamariewillbe 1 #173 December 9, 2005 So would it have been better for them to believe the guy had a mental problem and allow him to detonate a bomp and kill thousands of people? I mean by your thoughts, since it wasnt a bomb the marshalls were out of line, but Im sorry if someone is yelling at me to "drop the bag or Ill shoot, drop the bag or ill shoot , drop the bag or Ill shoot" Im dropping the fucking bag not go to reach into it, I worked at the federal law enforcement training center... I have been on roles with air marshalls in real planes, and Im telling you, pretending it was scarey enough... the reality is , the guy was warned at least 3 times that they would shoot... they did their job, they shot to kill... thats what they were trained to do and regardless that the aftermath shows he didnt have a bomb, the air marshalls had to believe him when he said he had one when combined with his erratic behavior... Hell walk into any airport, there are signs everywhere, that all threats are treated serious and it is a federal offence...Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #174 December 9, 2005 Later, it's more fun swapping jibes with kallend and rebirth today. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
artistcalledian 0 #175 December 9, 2005 America is in the grip of paranoia at the moment about terrorist attacks, gung ho people like this air marshall are going to shoot first and ask questions later.... and they will always have a little legion of fans backing them up saying "yes but what if it had turned out to be true, you can't take any chances" Welcome to your own world of fucked up paranoid actions, its not going to get any better for you, things like this are going to get more common If people genuinly think its ok to go shooting people who have already gone through security and then don't comply with instructions (who the fuck do the police and "air marshals" in america think they are anyway? god ? ) then i feel sorry for them, it must be shit living in America since 11/9 fucked your heads up________________________________________ drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
