Death Penalty for drugs in Singapore?

[LawnDart21 0]

I just read on Yahoo News that a 25 yr old Australian man is going to be executed in Singapore tomorrow for being caught with 14 ounces of heroine at the Singapore airport.

Australian news are calling it "barbarick", unproportional to the crime, etc, and it got me thinking. Could you imagine what it would be like here in the USA if we executed drug dealers? I know nothing about heroine, but I can't believe that 14 ounces is a monstrous amount of it, and this guy is being hung for it.

If that type of penalty was enforced in the US, do you think it would help curb the flow of drugs? (I ask the question with the assumption that the verdicts would be carried out quickly like in this case, and that the US court systems wouldnt put up with its typical 10-20 yr appeal bureaucracies.

So, If you knew if you got caught with a big bag of heroine, that you would be executed, without hesitation, by the government, would you sell drugs?

I think we'd see a much smaller number of dealers on our street corners.

Thoughts?

ps- I don't agree that this 25 yr old should be executed for his crime, but it does make you wonder about what life would be like if criminal penalties actually dissuade people from committing crimes, like in this case.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[ReBirth 0]

Yes, it would be a deterrent.

Crime rates were extremely low in the Soviet Union.

If you think it's worth it, vote Communist.

[miked10270 0]

It amuses me that while the First-World Governments put pressure on Singapore, Thailand, etc... to crack down on people smuggling drugs out of their countries, those same countries get all upset at "Barbaric" punishments for the very crimes they wanted stopped!

In the UK Heroin has a "street price" around £100 ($170, Eu150) a gramme. So this guy was smuggling around 1 Million Australian Dollars (DON'T laugh) worth of drugs!

Now... Singapore makes absolutely NO secret of their draconian drugs punishments - In fact they ram the fact that drugs smugglers risk execution down visitors' throats. So it's their country. Their law. The guy is getting what he risked.

NO SYMPATHY!

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[mikkey 0]

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Yes, it would be a deterrent.

Crime rates were extremely low in the Soviet Union.

If you think it's worth it, vote Communist.

Offically they were....but the reality was different.

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[narcimund 0]

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In the UK Heroin has a "street price" around £100 ($170, Eu150) a gramme. So this guy was smuggling around 1 Million Australian Dollars (DON'T laugh) worth of drugs!

I won't laugh, but I will correct your math. As of Dec 1, 2005, that comes to approx. AU$91,478.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[ReBirth 0]

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it does make you wonder about what life would be like if criminal penalties actually dissuade people from committing crimes, like in this case.

I fail to see how someone being convicted of a crime demonstrates that their penalty dissuaded them from commiting it.

And guess what, I know how to virtually elliminate all drug dealers on every street corner. Legalize it. Sure, it's not as fun as state sponsored execution, but it would actually be more successful in reducing crime.

[mikkey 0]

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It amuses me that while the First-World Governments put pressure on Singapore, Thailand, etc... to crack down on people smuggling drugs out of their countries, those same countries get all upset at "Barbaric" punishments for the very crimes they wanted stopped!

In the UK Heroin has a "street price" around £100 ($170, Eu150) a gramme. So this guy was smuggling around 1 Million Australian Dollars (DON'T laugh) worth of drugs!

Now... Singapore makes absolutely NO secret of their draconian drugs punishments - In fact they ram the fact that drugs smugglers risk execution down visitors' throats. So it's their country. Their law. The guy is getting what he risked.

NO SYMPATHY!

Mike.

Firstly - no matter if you are a supporter of capital punishment for murder or not – hanging people for drug trafficking is out of proportion for many people. Next step is laws like in Saudi Arabia, where you get executed for adultery…


Now the main point: The key reason why people are upset with the Singaporean laws is that the death penalty is mandatory for drug smuggling. There is no room for mitigating circumstances at all. Even in the US this is possible in murder cases (AFAIK?).

The guy in question was 21 years old when caught in transit in Singapore and has been cooperative in regard to information about the drug ring he was smuggling for.
But there is no possibility to take this into account. Exeptions can only be made by the Singaporean government – not a judge or a jury. I think that it is reasonable to criticize at least these aspects of the Singaporeans laws.

PS: Don't have the numbers about the amount of Heroin he carried, but the $1 million street value is what has been reported all along.

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[miked10270 0]

Personally, I am completely against capital punishment.

BUT...

Singapore makes their views on drug smugglers VERY public, VERY plain, & VERY simple.

ALL people entering Singapore are TOLD:

"WE EXECUTE DRUGS SMUGGLERS!"

There's NO ifs. NO buts. NO maybes. NO exceptions.

"YOU SMUGGLE DRUGS, YOU DIE""

First... If despite these warnings you decide to smuggle drugs, then be aware that you're gambling with your life! The idea is that you DON'T do it 'cos it's not worth the gamble. Unfortunately, in order to maintain the credibility of this deterrent....

Second... Remember that this law was enacted because of the demands made by First-World Governments (Australia included) to alleviate their drugs problems!

I'm afraid that this guy gambled and he lost. Pour Encourager Les Autres. Or as Stalin put it: "Shoot one man, encourage 10,000!"

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[LawnDart21 0]

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I fail to see how someone being convicted of a crime demonstrates that their penalty dissuaded them from commiting it.

Penalties, ie years in jail, financial penalties, executions, etc, are theoretically in place to deter people from committing crime. In most cases, the penalty (in the US anyways) doesnt typically dissuae people from committing crime. Its actually considered a "rite of passage" for certain people to go to jail, like gang members, and actually gives the person more credibility within his (or her) circle upon being released. All I'm saying is if you take two scenarios, even away from drugs, lets say DUI. Right now if you get DUI'd in my state 1st offense, you lose your license for one year. And people drink and drive all the time here. Why? Loss of license for a year ain't much of a deterent. If they changed the law to state that unquestionably, if you are fairly convicted of DUI once, you lose your license for life, no appeal possible. Do you think there would be anyone wiling to drive home from a bar after having 10 beers? Nope. Thats what I mean about current penalties not dissuading people from committing crimes. If you were fined $10,000 for every mile you were caught speeding over the speed limit, would you drive 56 mph in a 55 mph zone? Probably not.

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And guess what, I know how to virtually elliminate all drug dealers on every street corner. Legalize it. Sure, it's not as fun as state sponsored execution, but it would actually be more successful in reducing crime.

By that rational, if we abolished all laws, there would be no crime. The crime rate would be zero.

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My other ride is a RESERVE.

[ReBirth 0]

Just because someone warns you that they're going to kill you if you do something they don't like, doesn't make it ok. Yeah, you should have known better, but it still doesn't make it right.

[LawnDart21 0]

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I fail to see how someone being convicted of a crime demonstrates that their penalty dissuaded them from commiting it.

I misread your post. You are correct, that in this guys case the threat of a death penalty didnt dissuade him, the "case" I was referring to was/is Singapore itself. That having a death penalty for drug smuggling dissuades a great number of people from selling drugs, that might otherwise be ona street corner selling it if the penalty was lighter.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[ReBirth 0]

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By that rational, if we abolished all laws, there would be no crime. The crime rate would be zero.

It's a little more complicated than that. Prohibition of alcohol led to the gangs fueled by the black market that existed in the 20s. Prohibition of drugs is the direct cause of the gangs that exist today fueled by that black market.

I don't just mean the crime of dealing drugs would go away, all the crimes associated with illegal drugs would go away as well. Right now illegal drug sales fund highly organized domestic street gangs with ties to the mafia. And a lot of the proceeds go overseas to fund rogue elements in other nations as well as terrorist organizations. Alcohol and tobacco sales don't fund the same organizations for one simple reason, they're not sold by criminals.

You're right, the drug laws in this country are generally ineffective in preventing anyone from using drugs. Imagine if we took the billions of dollars dedicated to the war on drugs and used it to help people who wanted to get off them. That would go much much further toward reducing drug use, would bring about a drastic reduction in street crime, and would dry up a huge source of revenue for international crime syndicates, terrorists, and warlords. Not to mention that we could pay back that money from the tax proceeds of the drug sales themselves.

[LawnDart21 0]

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Prohibition of alcohol led to the gangs fueled by the black market that existed in the 20s.

Not to go off topic in my own thread........., but one of my favorite commercials today says something like "Chicago, the city that just sort of ignored that pesky Prohibition Law in the 20s"

That make me laugh every time I hear it.

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My other ride is a RESERVE.

[miked10270 0]

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Just because someone warns you that they're going to kill you ... doesn't make it right.

Not someone. The GOVERNMENT! The Government that decides what IS right in THEIR country!

Personally I don't like what's happening, but I do understand it and I understand the origins of this insanity.

Personally I'd start with 100years in jail & discounts for information & results... BUT... I'm not the Singapore Government.

I KNOW that this 21 year-old unfortunate is just some thicko lured by a free holiday & some easy cash! Or maybe he's an addict doing this to clear his drugs debt.

But I can't sympathise with him. He gambled knowing the downside of this particular gamble. His "Co-operation is nice, but it's co-operation AFTER being caught! Co-operation BEFORE being caught would have been treated very differently.

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[IanHarrop 41]

I don't have a real problem with it.

He knew what he was doing, he knew what the penalty was if he got caught.

He must have decided that the risk was worth the reward because he proceeded to smuggle drugs, knowing what the penalty was. He guessed wrong.

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[ReBirth 0]

Fine, I'll rephrase.

Just because the GOVERNMENT warns you they're going to kill you, doesn't make it right.

Personally, I did some stupid shit when I was 21. Never a drug smuggler, but other shit, fortunately I didn't get caught. But I do have sympathy for someone who makes a stupid mistake and pays with their life. And I'm of the opinion that maybe Singapore doesn't provide foreign 21 year olds accused of drug smuggling with the most competent legal council. Hell, can you say with certainty that he's really guilty? Yet you're willing to take the singapore gov't word that he should be executed?

It's not sympathy you're lacking, it's empathy.

[BillyVance 34]

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it does make you wonder about what life would be like if criminal penalties actually dissuade people from committing crimes, like in this case.

I fail to see how someone being convicted of a crime demonstrates that their penalty dissuaded them from commiting it.

And guess what, I know how to virtually elliminate all drug dealers on every street corner. Legalize it. Sure, it's not as fun as state sponsored execution, but it would actually be more successful in reducing crime.

But it can result in more ruined lives and deaths from OD's, can't it? Heroin is pretty bad stuff to mess with.

Medicinal pot is one thing, but most other drugs have bad consequences....

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[ReBirth 0]

Exactly the opposite. No one is stopped from buying drugs that wants them now. So legalizing it won't make more people do more drugs. And the main cause of overdoses is the fact that the potency is inconsistent and unknown on the streets. Something easily rectified in a white market.

I'm not condoning drug use at all. I'm just saying that drug laws do nothing to discourage use, and do a lot of harm.

Again, imagine all the billions spent on investigating, patrolling, arresting, and incarcerating people for drugs being spent on health care and educational programs aimed at getting people off drugs. That would be much more effective.

I took a friend to get a Naltrexone implant last week. It blocks opiod receptors. In other words, with this implant, you can shoot as much dope as you want and it won't do a thing. It's the main thing helping to keep her straight right now after having kicked the habit. It costs her $500/month. I'd much rather my tax money went to help people who want to get off drugs rather than incarcerate people who are exploiting the illegality of them.

[mikkey 0]

Firstly at the time I write this he probably has been executed – it was scheduled to be about one hour ago.

Just a few comments:

1) Warning and drug mules: There are a lot of stupid and desperate people out there. No matter the warnings. Death penalty for drug smuggling is out of proportion IMO – 30 years prison – no problem – but death – I am not a big fan of capital punishment anyway.

2) Seems the warnings do not always help. Currently 9 Australians are awaiting trial in Bali for Heroin smuggling and will probably be sentence to death. Some of them are 19 years old. They were payed a few thousand $ to be mules, to risk their live. Young and stupid – even a death penalty will not help in these case. And should a stupid 19 year old who carries Heroin for a few thousand dollars and a free holiday in Bali be executed?

3) Even if you agree with the death penalty for drug smuggling – you can not agree with the legal process involved in Singapore. The death penalty is mandatory no matter the circumstances. A lot of the processes you award murderers in the US are not available for these mules and there is no allowance for individual circumstances to be taken into account. Only the Government can grant clemency (and they never do AFAIK due to political reasons). I would have no problem for the Singaporeans executing the people behind the smuggling – but that hardly happens (they are not catching them) – instead they kill the small fish – and there is always a supply of people dumb enough and/or desperate enough.

4) Here is something I found that demonstrates my point that Singapore is taking this too far: September 2004 Singapore announces plans to execute a self-medicating heroin user, Chew Seow Leng. Under Singapore law, chronic heroin users with a high physiological tolerance to the drug are deemed to be "traffickers". Consumers face a mandatory death sentence if they take more than 15 grams (0.5 ounces) of heroin a day.


The reason for the draconian laws in SEA are historical. Singapore like many other places in SEA and China were plagued by Opium use and its effect on society for generations. So it is understandable they take a hard stance – however that does not mean you have to agree with mandatory death penalty.

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[IanHarrop 41]

I guess we disagree

In the states 18 is old enough to sign up for the military and go off and die for your country. This guy was 21, I guess he made the decision to risk his life for a different cause.

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[miked10270 0]

"Game" Over.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4487366.stm

The background is sad. But "The End does not justify The means."

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[timmeh 0]

Regardless of the circumstances, Singapore did the correct thing in maintaining the sentence, afterall the mandatory sentencing of drug trafficers has been in place for quite some time and led to over 400 executions, mostly Sinaporeans (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4478728.stm)

They cannot feasibly reduce Van Nyugens sentence without uproar from the general population after their own people have been executed for the same offences.

In Australia, at the moment, the population is split almost exactly down the middle regarding this issue, with the same arguments being bought up continuously (in fact I can't remember the last time I saw the 6 o'clock news without seeing something about this case).

Personally, I don't know whether I agree with it or not, however I do not believe that so-called mitigating circumstances should not change anything, allegedly he was trafficing in the hopes of clearing his brothers legal fees from a heroin related charge in Australia. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4487366.stm)
I don't think that doing the wrong thing to do the right thing is any excuse as the Australian Government has been pushing everyone to believe. I understand the want to help family and the helpless feeling of not being able to, but there are other ways, other LEGAL ways rather then going for the quick easy cash.

Of course there are other things to consider, among them the knowledge of manadatory sentencing in Singapore, the number of lives endangered by the amount of heroin he was carrying (and yes it was about $AU1 million) which equates to something like 26,000 hits.

I would like to think that hard-line laws such as mandatory death sentences are changing things as the Singaporean Gov't say it has (http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGASA360012004?open&of=ENG-SGP)

All that said, I am not for coporal punishment, after all 'an eye for an eye' mentality ultimately leads to the Gov't comitting murder. I just believe that in this case he recieved the correct sntence.

[EDIT]
Also the Van Nyugen is 25 as stated in the original post, not 21, and I highly doubt his defense was lacking given his defense team were AU Governmental attorneys.

[mikkey 0]

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Also the Van Nyugen is 25 as stated in the original post, not 21, and I highly doubt his defense was lacking given his defense team were AU Governmental attorneys.

He was 21 at the time of his arrest....

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[rehmwa 2]

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And I'm of the opinion that maybe Singapore doesn't provide foreign 21 year olds accused of drug smuggling with the most competent legal council.

Just because they look different from you doesn't mean they don't take their law just as seriously.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[ReBirth 0]

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And I'm of the opinion that maybe Singapore doesn't provide foreign 21 year olds accused of drug smuggling with the most competent legal council.

Just because they look different from you doesn't mean they don't take their law just as seriously.

Thanks for trying to paint me as a racist. I was referring to the fact that they have draconian laws and a draconian legal system. I don't think that's because of their race. I'm sure they take their legal system seriously, that doesn't make it right. You'll find I'm pretty consistent in my view that state sponsored execution is always wrong, even when done by those honkey americans.