i'm NOT christian... and proud of it!!!

[windcatcher 0]

Plain and simple, God requires FAITH. Without faith it is impossible to please God.

Mother to the cutest little thing in the world...

[MarkR 0]

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It is true that man has used religion for political gain. Hitler had "God with us" engraved on the belts of Nazi soldiers.

And the church said: "Yes, this man [Hitler] is executing god's will by persecuting the 'bane of christianity' (the jews)." The Lutheran Church was backing this SOB up, there are countless writings to prove that.

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America said, "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition."

You're speaking past tense here. "America" still does.

In the middle ages, the church was - as I've already pointed out - beheading people, burning women just because they had red hair - and you are really trying to tell us that the church had in fact nothing to do with it and that it was "just" the politicans and sovereigns using the name of God to justify their actions?

Then please, do enlighten me how it came to bear that the crusades to Jerusalem were caused by pope Urban II. calling to arms ("Deus lo vult" does ring a bell for you, right)?

Of course. Like I'm going to listen to what some self-proclaimed "follower of God" tells me what's right and wrong - especially since they're known for screwing up bad (see examples above). I have my own morals and standards and I am doing pretty fine with them - there was very little (read: none whatsoever) religion involved in building them. Mankind doesn't need any priests or preachers waving the bible in front of them, there's only bad coming from it. It only keeps them from thinking for themselves.

»Somewhere between the lies and truths borderlines get shady.
Somewhere between the yesses and nos you can find the maybe.«

[rhys 0]

faith does not come from nowhere!

do you have faith just because you have faith or do you have faith because something/someone convinced you to have faith?

I went to a christian school for 4 years and had to attend chapel twice a week! In those 4 years circa 88 visits to the chapel, not once was anything said that may convince me to believe. i had to take religious studies nothing there! just stories of morals!

some good stories though! but stories is what they are!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[kallend 1,683]

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I'm sorry you don't see the difference. I would think you, being a scientist, could.

It's because I'm a scientist that I realize there is no difference.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Dolph 0]

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Kinda like the link in Pajarito's sig line - "Are you a good person?". It kinda annoys me that he judges me (using God as a proxy) and insinuates I am a bad person. That makes me prone to be harsher than usual regarding his faith.

Pajarito isn't judging whether you, personally, are good or not. Only God can do that, and the link in Paj's sig line merely takes you to a site that allows you to judge yourself, in a sense, by taking a test based on God's standard of the moral law. That's how Jesus helped at least one man we know of discover whether or not he was "good."

[I realize that you weren't addressing me, but I wanted to jump into the conversation. I hope
choosing this spot was OK.]

This is where we disagree. He is judging me, using God as a proxy. He's a Christian, following Christian doctrine. According to it, anyone not adhering to Christian doctrine is a bad person.

Now, everyone is a sinner according to this doctrine - but not everyone is a bad person.

Even though Christians maintain it is solely God's duty to judge a man or womans moral character, this is just an idealized concept. Everyone has to judge others unless we want to come to harm because we let ourselves come into a situation where bad people (and I mean really bad people) have an opportunity to hurt us. This is done on a daily basis and I maintain that a non judgmental individual on earth wouldn't last long unless heavily protected by judgmental people. Like me. I discriminate when necessary and sometimes when it ain't.

Paj's basis for judgement, for his whole life, is the Bible. If the Bible tells "A", then Paj, by virtue of wanting to be a good Christian, cannot claim to hold "B" to be true. The Bible is the written word of God after all.

Bible -> God's words -> Paj's personal judgement criteria -> me a bad person (and to top it off, a sinner too!).

You may claim that it is only God that views me and others like me as a bad person. I see it for what is is, however. To maintain that Paj is non judgemental is to attribute God-like behaviour to him - and even if he is a good Christian and good guy, I won't go that far.

Judgement by proxy is another way of letting organised dogma dictate behavioral pattern.

[beowulf 1]

Nice use of condescencion to cloud the issue.

It still remains that faith is belief despite little or no evidence to support it. Even your definition supports this.

Explain this there is a lady where I work that is Hindu. Now she has just as much faith in her gods as any christian does in their god, but christians would refer to her gods as false gods. How is her faith any less true then your faith?


by the way have you ever heard the saying "leap of faith"?? Explain that one to me! It is generally known to mean taking a chance on something with out anything to support it.

[Andy9o8 0]

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Plain and simple, God requires FAITH. Without faith it is impossible to please God.

Well, it's an argument over basic premise and definition. Others might argue that a more factually correct version of your statement should be:

***Plain and simple, the notion and/or very existence of God requires FAITH. Without faith it is impossible to please for God to exist.

[beowulf 1]

Now that is a statment I can support.

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[hairyjuan 0]

god requires BELIEF WITH NO PROOF



www.christianism.com

the proof that the bible is a myth, jesus is a myth, is all around you. your only recourse is DENIAL or admit that it is a myth

we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively


wishers never choose, choosers never wish

[Mockingbird 0]

You don't understand the nature of faith? Being a scientist? Do you have conFIDence in the concept of atoms as science has explained them? I'm sure you do. Yet you've NEVER seen one. Is your faith that they exist and that you understand much about them based on NOTHING? or is there evidence behind your faith?

[Mockingbird 0]

Hi, Andy. Can you give me an example from scripture of the word faith (or belief or trust) referring to assurance without any basis?

[Mockingbird 0]

Well of course you can... because it has no bearing on your life and your choices.

[kallend 1,683]

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You don't understand the nature of faith? Being a scientist? Do you have conFIDence in the concept of atoms as science has explained them? I'm sure you do. Yet you've NEVER seen one. Is your faith that they exist and that you understand much about them based on NOTHING? or is there evidence behind your faith?

I've seen atoms - lots of microscopes nowadays can resolve atoms. There is additionally lots of independent objective evidence for the existence of atoms that goes beyond just seeing them in a microscope. You are on a loser with that line of reasoning.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[beowulf 1]

By your own definition you describe faith as having no evidence. Yet you are still arguing as though it does have evidence. Are you trying to say that as long as you feel it is true in your heart than the evidence must be adequate? Well the heart can be deceiving. I think I remember that being written some where in your precious bible.

[shaiziel 0]

Faith negates proof as it eliminates the need for evidence.

Faith cannot work as evidence because it would provide proof.

If you have evidence, you can have proof, thus negate the need for faith.

God requires faith, thus you cannot have evidence and, subsequently, proof.

This is why there is no evidence or proof supporting god.

So any christians who think faith is just as good as evidence and proof is logically and biblically wrong.

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[beowulf 1]

nice

That is and has been my point all along. It seems that Mockingbird would disagree.

[Mockingbird 0]

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Faith negates proof as it eliminates the need for evidence.
Faith cannot work as evidence because it would provide proof.
If you have evidence, you can have proof, thus negate the need for faith.
God requires faith, thus you cannot have evidence and, subsequently, proof.
This is why there is no evidence or proof supporting god.

Your reasoning lacks something.
For one thing, evidence doesn't always lead to proof. Sometimes it falls short. You can have some compelling evidence (such as science had for the atom), but no beyond-the-shadow-of-a-doubt-PROOF. However, the compelling evidence may lead you to a beyond-a-reasonable-doubt-PROOF.

I have evidence that someone going by the user name "shaiziel" typed your post. But I have only have a "degree" of proof (more like probability) that it was actually him. I could say I believe beyond a reasonable doubt that "shaiziel" wrote the sentences above. There's the chance, though, that his wife, or girlfriend, or son typed it surreptitiously! So I don't have definite proof.

Faith doesn't eliminate the need for evidence, because faith needs evidence in order to exist in the first place.

When you say, "God requires faith," do you know what "faith" means in this context?

[unformed 0]

You shouldn't even bother. There's really no point in arguing with these people. I don't know what's so hard to understand that the Bible is the words of God and is therefore mostly true. Of course it has been translated by humans and humans make mistakes but the gist of it is right there.

Of course then there's people comparing it to Greek and Roman mythology, but you know, there's a reason no one believes those anymore - because there was nothing to it.

People believe in the Bible, even after 2000 years, because there's something inside us, something in our subconscious, that tells us this is true. Scientists haven't been able to find it yet, but that doesn't mean it's not there. They just have to keep looking. These people just won't understand that sometimes there's things that we don't see, but only feel, that are representative of the truth.

This ad space for sale.

[Mockingbird 0]

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By your own definition you describe faith as having no evidence.

Please show me where I describe faith as having no evidence.

(I don't think you're reading very carefully.)

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Are you trying to say that as long as you feel it is true in your heart than the evidence must be adequate?

Absolutely NOT! Feelings/emotional experiences (for lack of a better term) can be notoriously misleading if left untested, using some objective standard.

Yes, you are right, the heart CAN be deceiving and often is. And yes, you remember it correctly being written somewhere in my precious bible (tho' I picked up on your sarcastic tone!). The entire sentence is: "The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately sick; who can understand it?"

[Mockingbird 0]

Well, I know I shouldn't bother when it comes to convincing them of truth--- that's not my job anyway, thankfully. I sort of see my job here as correcting all the misinformation that's out there about Christianity and the bible and Jesus, etc. I love the truth of God-- it is so pure and so perfect--- I just hate seeing it misrepresented. I'll go for weeks without even looking at this forum, and then I take a peek. Then I have to jump in. Paj does an excellent job of laying out the truth, but he's got to take a break now and then. But thanks for your support.

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[Nightingale 0]

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Of course then there's people comparing it to Greek and Roman mythology, but you know, there's a reason no one believes those anymore - because there was nothing to it.

People believe in the Bible, even after 2000 years, because there's something inside us, something in our subconscious, that tells us this is true.

Didn't the people of Egypt follow their religion for around 3000 years, with a lot less change than christianity has gone through? I'm sure they felt inside themselves that what they believed was truth. In fact, their stories are so powerful that we read them now, 5000 years later. Just because a tradition is passed down for a very long time does not make it any more or less true.

[Royd 0]

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Scientists haven't been able to find it yet, but that doesn't mean it's not there. They just have to keep looking.

According to the Scripture, the natural man cannot receive the things of the spirit, so, as long as they try to find physical evidence, their efforts will be in vain. One must have a spiritual awakening to see the things of the spirit.

[shaiziel 0]

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People believe in the Bible, even after 2000 years, because there's something inside us, something in our subconscious, that tells us this is true. These people just won't understand that sometimes there's things that we don't see, but only feel, that are representative of the truth.

Feelings and emotions are not a basis for a system of belief and are not evidence of some greater power other than the influence of social programming. You feel it's true because you want it to be true. Christianity is no different from any other religion in the context of people "feeling" like what they believe is the truth. Muslim's feel like their religion is the truth. Jews, yep. What you're speaking of is nothing substantial in assisting your case, and frankly, nothing special.

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[shaiziel 0]

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According to the Scripture, the natural man cannot receive the things of the spirit, so, as long as they try to find physical evidence, their efforts will be in vain. One must have a spiritual awakening to see the things of the spirit.

Again, this is only more evidence that your god doesn't want you to know he/she/it exists. It all ends up being "I felt god's presence" which is a totally subjective experience which by nature, does not provide evidence for anything outside of your capability to self-induce feelings you attribute to the presence of god. I can fantasize about naked women and induce feelings as well. It's called using my imagination.

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[beowulf 1]

Ok Mockingbird lets do this again. According to your definition "Faith= the assurance of the heart in the adequacy of the evidence "

When I read this I see that it is your HEART that is assuring you that the evidence you see is adequate.

Hmmmm now lets look at what else you have written.

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Yes, you are right, the heart CAN be deceiving and often is. And yes, you remember it correctly being written somewhere in my precious bible (tho' I picked up on your sarcastic tone!). The entire sentence is: "The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately sick; who can understand it?"