Body Count for this Week's Episode of "Over There" 17AUG2005

[waltappel 1]

2 Muslims burned to death in a taxi hit by a mortar round.
1 Muslim spotter for mortar fire--a beautiful one-shot kill! (Screaming Muslim wife was a nice touch)

No Americans blown away (Hoorah!!!!!)

A little slow this week.

The hospitalized soldier with left-sided below-the-knee amputation has a beautiful and compassionate wife that is worthy of mention.

Hopefully, Allah will be much busier on next week's episode.

Walt

[skymiles 3]

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No Americans blown away (Hoorah!!!!!)

As of August 17, 57 Americans have died in Iraq this month.

Phil

[christelsabine 1]

You seem to have a special sense of humour, I guess.

I remember to have seen a "body count" in a movie with Charly Sheen, "Hot Shots". That was funny. For my understanding of humour, your actual counting is not funny at all. Sorry.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[LouDiamond 1]

I don't know why people are raving about that show. I have been to both Iraq and Afghanistan and that "show" they are playing on tv is nothing like the way it really is over there, let alone in the military. "over there" is another one of hollywoods poor and inept attempts to portray what is going on in the world. The show is poorly done IMO. No way in hell a 2 star general would just walk in a tent without a entourage of col's, majs and capts preceding him, let alone direct a Staff sgt to clear the way for his toliets. That type of shit is done officer to officer and it continues to roll down hill. "Over there" is as believable as the A-team was in the 80's.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[justinb138 0]

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You seem to have a special sense of humour, I guess.

I can kind of see some humor in it, given the fact that from what people have said, it in no way represents what actually is going on, yet is advertised as being accurate.

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I remember to have seen a "body count" in a movie with Charly Sheen, "Hot Shots". That was funny. For my understanding of humour, your actual counting is not funny at all. Sorry.

That was funny!..Especially when he shot the guy with a chicken I'm going to have to go home tonight and watch that movie.

[JohnRich 4]

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2 Muslims burned to death in a taxi hit by a mortar round.

Clarification: mortar round fired by Muslims.

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The hospitalized soldier with left-sided below-the-knee amputation has a beautiful and compassionate wife that is worthy of mention.

Yes. But that other woman who is cheating on her soldier/husband and not caring for that cute curly-haired boy, is a worthless piece of shit.

The soldiers in the observation post was a good "moral dilemma" story again.

Next week, they deal with how the media covers the battlefront. It'll be interesting to see how they present this.

[starkmtn 0]

Is this a sick joke?

"You guys should just do CRW. There are so many more ways to get killed, it makes a CYPRES seem safe." -Kevin Keenan

[waltappel 1]

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Is this a sick joke?

That is probably the best question asked yet. Yes, my posts on this show are a sick joke. Many people view the show as a sick joke. Many more view the war in Iraq as a sick joke.

I haven't decided whether I think the show is worth watching.

I'm getting more and more sure that the war in Iraq is misguided, but I still haven't made up my mind.

Posting the body count for the show and making stupid implications and comments on Muslims has stimulated some excellent discussion on both the show and the war.

I find it especially enlightening when someone who has been "over there" makes comments on the show. They are the ultimate critics because they are by far and away the most qualified to make judgements on the show from a reality perspective. This is an unbelievable opportunity to get perspectives that are not filtered by any agenda on the part of the media.

Am I an asshole for posting the body counts? Probably. But by reading the discussion generated by the posts, I think I am a better-informed asshole and I am grateful for that.

You have my sincere thanks for asking the question. BTW, if you want to rip into me for the posts, please do so in the thread, as long as you are within the posting rules. Even those posts stimulate good discussion.

And to everyone who has responded to my "body count" posts--thankyou.

edited to add:
The above response was a bit dishonest because it did not include the following. The fact is that my original "body count" post last week was pretty much a troll. Because of the high caliber of people who hang out in Speakers Corner, it has turned into much more than that, and that is why I continued it into this week and will continue to post it as long as it generates good discussion. That being said, I stand by the original version of this post.

Walt

[waltappel 1]

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No Americans blown away (Hoorah!!!!!)

As of August 17, 57 Americans have died in Iraq this month.

Phil

From the bottom of my heart I hope in hindsight we are all able to feel that their deaths were for a greater good.

Walt

[billvon 2,475]

> . . .I hope in hindsight we are all able to feel that their deaths were for a greater good.

I think that this sentiment (which is a good one) leads some people to hate anyone that questions the war, because if you question the war, you question why so many people have died. And sometimes you do have to ask that question, because asking that question often leads to fewer people dying in the future.

[waltappel 1]

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You seem to have a special sense of humour, I guess.

I remember to have seen a "body count" in a movie with Charly Sheen, "Hot Shots". That was funny. For my understanding of humour, your actual counting is not funny at all. Sorry.

My "body count" posts may well qualify me as a big-time asshole, but if you read the responses you'll see intelligent views that you will never see in the mainstream media. I'm more than willing to wear the "asshole" title if it gets that kind of result.

Walt

[waltappel 1]

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I don't know why people are raving about that show. I have been to both Iraq and Afghanistan and that "show" they are playing on tv is nothing like the way it really is over there, let alone in the military. "over there" is another one of hollywoods poor and inept attempts to portray what is going on in the world. The show is poorly done IMO. No way in hell a 2 star general would just walk in a tent without a entourage of col's, majs and capts preceding him, let alone direct a Staff sgt to clear the way for his toliets. That type of shit is done officer to officer and it continues to roll down hill. "Over there" is as believable as the A-team was in the 80's.

That is one of the best commentaries I have seen yet, and there have been some excellent ones.

IN don't think many people will accuse the shows producers of creating a great reality-based show, but that is not really what the show is about.

Each week they seem to feature story lines where soldiers are forced to make moral choices in a situation where some of the choices may be less moral but may increase their chances of survival.

Have you been able to get past the lack of reality enough to have opinions on the moral abiguities they present? If so, I would really like to see your take on it.

Walt

[waltappel 1]

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But that other woman who is cheating on her soldier/husband and not caring for that cute curly-haired boy, is a worthless piece of shit.

Beyond worthless piece of shit. Did you notice that they are now setting up a situation where a husband of a soldier who is "over there" may be confronted with the possibility of having an affair with the wife of a soldier who is "over there"?

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The soldiers in the observation post was a good "moral dilemma" story again.

What I liked about it was that they showed different attitudes, ranging from "fuck it, let's kill him just to be safe!" to "we can't be sure--should we do this?". I'm sure many viewers could strongly relate to at least one of the perspectives. In the end, they were all "right".

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Next week, they deal with how the media covers the battlefront. It'll be interesting to see how they present this.

Agreed. Next week I will start summarizing the show and noting the highlights in addition to providing the body count.

Walt

[christelsabine 1]

You surely never have been put in the awkward position of struggling for an elegant answer, right? How smart, indeed....

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[JohnRich 4]

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1 Muslim spotter for mortar fire--a beautiful one-shot kill!

Is this a sick joke?

I can't speak for Walt - he does a great job of that by himself.

However, why should the killing of terrorist shitheads be a "joke"? That's a good thing, which saves the lives of many innocent people.

You're not in favor of allowing terrorists to carry out their deadly attacks, are you?

[waltappel 1]

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> . . .I hope in hindsight we are all able to feel that their deaths were for a greater good.

I think that this sentiment (which is a good one) leads some people to hate anyone that questions the war, because if you question the war, you question why so many people have died. And sometimes you do have to ask that question, because asking that question often leads to fewer people dying in the future.

Amen. I grew up during the Vietnam war era. I clung very hard to the idea that our government was committed to doing "the right thing". I was really pissed off at people who dared to question the moral integrity of our government.

Obviously, I was incredibly naive. We have a duty to question our government's policies--especially those policies that cost lives, American or otherwise.

Walt

[waltappel 1]

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However, why should the killing of terrorist shitheads be a "joke"? That's a good thing, which saves the lives of many innocent people.

You're not in favor of allowing terrorists to carry out their deadly attacks, are you?

I would like to add to that. As has been pointed out, our military people have done positive things for the people of Iraq.

All the terrorists do is kill. Military, civilians, men, women, children. They don't seem to care.

Walt

[LouDiamond 1]

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Have you been able to get past the lack of reality enough to have opinions on the moral abiguities they present? If so, I would really like to see your take on it.

That is one area where the show goes astray IMO. Infantrymen don't sit around and have discussions about moral dilemias when people are trying to kill them. The years I spent in the conventional airborne Infantry and in SF, I have yet to see a man have a problem with shooting the enemy as long as it was within the ROE. The only time I have ever see a man refuse to pick up his weapon and drive on was during an incrediblely wicked lightning storm during training here in the states. Every combat zone I have been in and the people around me wouldn't hesitate to smoke a bad guy. I think combat arm MOS people have less of a hard time dealing with the truth of the matter that your "job" is to engage the enemy and kill him than the non combat arms people who sit behind desks or work in the rear areas.Those people may have joined for other reason than to be engaged in ground combat. There is a reason why we have a ROE so that those "what if" moral scenarios don't cause someone to get smoked while they are analyizing the situation. That show is so off base that even the moral abiguities don't make sense to me. It's all hollywood drivel and is a poor barometer for anything other than bored civillians wanting to see what they believe to be "the way it is" in combat. IMO, it's a drama show just like ER or law and order except it's set in a war zone to take advantage of the current world situation. They need a better military advisor and better writers if they want it to be even remotely realistic. Throwing in profanity and blunt dialogue may seem "real" to civillians but it is simply poor writing. try hanging around a restaurant here in NC for awhile and you could easily hear some of the same type of conversations and language but the topic could be anything from lawn mowing to a kids soccer game.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[waltappel 1]

Thankyou for that post and for sharing your insights!!!

And if I haven't said it before, thankyou for serving.

Walt

[freeryde13 0]

i've never seen the show....don't watch too much tv. but , while i have's been to iraq, a guy who has been there told me he did have a moral delima and quit. he also said every one in his team felt the same way. he mainly had a deima about doing house to house searches. he couldn't deal with looking in to the peoples eyes when they had things aimed at them in their houses. he had no problem with the actualy engaging the "enemy" though. ....... just one mans opinion . would love to hear more views as well....

_________________________________________

people see me as a challenge to their balance

[billvon 2,475]

>No Americans blown away (Hoorah!!!!!)

Something about this thread's been bugging me, but I haven't been able to put my finger on it until now.

Four Americans, real ones, were 'blown away' today. Around 43 Iraqis died in the past few days; we don't keep track of them as carefully. Maybe it's an inevitable result of living in a TV-oriented culture, but that seems more worthy of note than the number of people killed on a TV show.

[waltappel 1]

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>No Americans blown away (Hoorah!!!!!)

Something about this thread's been bugging me, but I haven't been able to put my finger on it until now.

Four Americans, real ones, were 'blown away' today. Around 43 Iraqis died in the past few days; we don't keep track of them as carefully. Maybe it's an inevitable result of living in a TV-oriented culture, but that seems more worthy of note than the number of people killed on a TV show.

You'll get no argument from me on that. To me, the numbers of people being killed--especially by car bombs and other IEDs--is staggering and it bothers me that when they are reported, the figures come off as mere numbers; just another set of statistics.

Tell you what--and this bothers me--I would bet if I started making "body count" posts based on real life body counts, even using the same kind of language that I use in these posts, not nearly as much discussion would be generated and they would, in general, not be seen as anywhere near as offensive.

Maybe it's because our perception is that life is cheap "over there". Or maybe we've been numbed to it. I don't know.

Walt

[sunman 0]

However, why should the killing of terrorist shitheads be a "joke"? That's a good thing, which saves the lives of many innocent people.

You're not in favor of allowing terrorists to carry out their deadly attacks, are you? ***

I believe that most of the people that we're killing in Iraq are insurgents, not terrorists. Every muslim who picks up a gun to defend what he thinks is right is not a terrorist.

[waltappel 1]

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However, why should the killing of terrorist shitheads be a "joke"? That's a good thing, which saves the lives of many innocent people.

You're not in favor of allowing terrorists to carry out their deadly attacks, are you? ***

I believe that most of the people that we're killing in Iraq are insurgents, not terrorists. Every muslim who picks up a gun to defend what he thinks is right is not a terrorist.

Killing in the name of Allah, God, or whoever the fuck is tantamount to terrorism in my opinion.

If you can explain the distinction you draw between them I would be genuinely interested.

Walt

[billvon 2,475]

>Killing in the name of Allah, God, or whoever the fuck is
>tantamount to terrorism in my opinion.

See if you can identify this little ditty:

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Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword;
His truth is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! His truth is marching on.

. . .

In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea,
With a glory in His bosom that transfigures you and me:
As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free;
While God is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! While God is marching on.
-----------------------

Both sides in a war want to believe God is on their side, and their killing, if not in his name, is at least sanctioned by him. The winners get to say that that's OK.