Radio Tracking your Driver's License

[JohnRich 4]

In the news:

The American Civil Liberties Union today urged Virginia not to become the first state in the nation to place radio frequency identification (RFID) chips in its driver’s licenses.

"Until now, the controversy over RFID tags has focused on Wal-Mart and other retail applications," said Chris Calabrese, of the ACLU. "But this is the first proposal we’ve seen to include RFIDs in driver’s licenses. That brings the potential intrusion of this technology to a whole new level."

Calabrese testified before a panel of Virginia legislators that is considering whether to recommend the technology’s adoption in the state’s driver’s licenses. RFID tags are computer chips attached to tiny antennae that are capable of broadcasting their data wirelessly to anyone with a RFID reader. They are currently used for "contactless" applications such as toll-booth speed passes.

"Almost everyone carries a driver’s license, and RFID chips allow people to be tracked," said Kent Willis, Executive Director of the ACLU of Virginia. "This proposal would allow anyone to set up an RFID reader to capture the identities and personal information of every person who comes within range," added Willis. "FBI agents, for example, could sweep up the identities of everyone at a political meeting, protest march, gun show, or Islamic prayer service."

Source: ACLU

[PhreeZone 15]

Even though my company is involved in RFID technology (we are working on a shopping cart that lets you walk out with out ever seeing a cashier, it totals things with in a distance of the cart and bills your Credit card automatically ) I HATE the idea of it being on my drivers licence. I can think of no ligimate application where someone needs the information on it but does'nt need to actually see it.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[free_man 0]

http://www.gunowners.org/a100404.htm

Monday, October 4, 2004

What part of "Constitution" don't they understand?

In a frightening move, House Republicans -- members of the party that supposedly favors "limited government" -- are pushing an Orwellian nightmare in Congress in the name of "national security."

In the wake of the 9/11 Commission's recommendations, the Senate -- unlike the House -- has prepared legislation which would closely track that Commission's findings by reorganizing the intelligence services in the federal government. The Senate bill is relatively innocuous compared to the House version, HR 10.

Unfortunately, many of the so-called Republicans in the House are pushing this nightmarish legislation which would:

* Create a massive government database containing personal information on every American man, woman and child;

* Standardize (i.e., nationalize) the process of issuing driver's licenses -- thereby taking the final step toward creating a national ID card; and

* Set up a system whereby any employer or industry identified by the Attorney General would have to submit employment applicants to the government for approval -- complete with fingerprints or other "biometric identifiers."

Now, let's look at how each of these problems could affect your rights -- gun rights in particular:


read here: http://www.gunowners.org/a100404.htm

“…because I hope you know this, I think you do…all governments are lying cocksuckers.”
Bill Hicks, Relentless

[quade 3]

I can understand why some chuckle head in VA may have thought this was a good idea. Probably something along the lines of, "this will save a couple of seconds when we make a traffic stop and it will stop fake IDs cold," but whoever it was just didn't think it through.

Not thinking things through and taking into consideration all possible effects is a the cause of a lot of disasters.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[kallend 1,679]

Nasty.

Maybe it's time to become "A card carrying member of the ACLU"

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[cgriffin 0]

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Maybe it's time to become "A card carrying member of the ACLU"

Oh, please, don't. They do accomplish some things, I will grant them, but they are (next to the polictical parties) one of the most two-faced organizations in the country. As long as you strongly support some Constitutional rights, but not others, it's a great group....

[Casurf1978 0]

Read the report the ACLU put out: The Growth of an American Surveillance Society. Pretty freaking scary. Some might say its BS and far fetched, but not after reading your post.

[JohnRich 4]

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I HATE the idea of it being on my drivers licence. I can think of no ligimate application where someone needs the information on it but does'nt need to actually see it.

Ditto on that. The government has no business knowing who we are or where we travel, unless they have probable-cause to stop us and ask for identity. I'd like to think that the 4th Amendment would rule this out automatically. I believe that the public has the right to go about their business without being "watched" by Big Brother. But I'm not naive enough to think that all politicians will agree with me on that.

People will just cut out the RFID chip from their licences, or find a way to deactivate it.

Then it will become against the law to tamper with the chip from your license.

Next, they'll set up roadside monitors, and upon seeing someone drive by the monitor, without detecting a chip, a ticket will automatically be issued for "driving without a license".

And so it goes...

They ought to just go ahead and stick a chip in the brain of every newborn infant, and be done with it.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

Quote

Even though my company is involved in RFID technology (we are working on a shopping cart that lets you walk out with out ever seeing a cashier, it totals things with in a distance of the cart and bills your Credit card automatically ) I HATE the idea of it being on my drivers licence. I can think of no ligimate application where someone needs the information on it but does'nt need to actually see it.

If I were you, I would stop working on such technology, then, and urge others to stop as well.

Imagine for a moment that you were working on MIND-READING technology. For a legitimate purpose, of course. Something like using it ONLY to find out where an abductor is keeping some little girl he kidnapped, and who will die if she is not found... You are working on the technology to enable this noble cause -- BUT, you blind yourself to the fact that once it exists, it can be abused by any number of evil people or groups. You can't just wash your hands of it and say, "Well, I only envisioned noble uses..." and rid yourself of blame for tyrannical governments using the mind-reading technology against political opponents.

There are some things that should not exist, even though they can. Mind-control devices, mind-reading devices, and human-tracking devices are among them. And any contribution toward them is bad.

-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

Quote

The government has no business knowing who we are or where we travel, unless they have probable-cause to stop us and ask for identity. I'd like to think that the 4th Amendment would rule this out automatically. I believe that the public has the right to go about their business without being "watched" by Big Brother. But I'm not naive enough to think that all politicians will agree with me on that.

They will claim that since driving and having a driver's license is a "privilige, not a right," (an argument I have always thought was bullshit, since it is very difficult to live a typical modern life without one, at least in many places in this country, and that does make it an entitlement provided you conduct yourself responsibly and safely). As such, they will claim that if you don't like it, don't get a driver's license. They'll be full of shit, of course, but this is what they'll say, nonetheless.

Quote

People will just cut out the RFID chip from their licences, or find a way to deactivate it.

Then it will become against the law to tamper with the chip from your license.

Next, they'll set up roadside monitors, and upon seeing someone drive by the monitor, without detecting a chip, a ticket will automatically be issued for "driving without a license".

And so it goes...

They ought to just go ahead and stick a chip in the brain of every newborn infant, and be done with it.

I think you are right on the mark with these predictions.

-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[PhreeZone 15]

Blah, the only thing that we are working on is a micro RFID chip that goes on the clothing price tag that gets picked up by RF readers built into the door frame. Basically taking existing stuff and dressing it up. Only thing we are building is a reciept printer device and a database to allow you to be able to return it later. Its pretty cool ideas, but there are no buyers for it and I doubt there will ever be. Its something that an exec saw in one of those IBM commercials a few years ago and turned into his project. There is no way a store will let you be able to tear the tags off of stuff and mix in with other clothes and just walk out the door. Its keeping a few friends employed so I laugh at the budget

Got a toll tag right now? You've already got 99.9% of the RF technology in it thats needed for this. My entrance badge for work requires it to be with in 6 inches of the reader to work and its smaller then a credit card. Thats the remaining .1%

Big issue is making the transmitting chip have enough signal strength to be picked up from a distance.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[sfc 0]

Quote

People will just cut out the RFID chip from their licences, or find a way to deactivate it.

If you put it in a microwave for about 1-2 seconds it will fry it totally with no obvious signs.
You have to be careful not to cook it longer or it will burn.

[Casurf1978 0]

It's technology, it how we use it that is the problem. I'm all for RFID devices. The possabilites are endless. As an example, tracking animals both wild and domestic. My dog has one in her shoulder, the size of a grain of rice. How about for robberys. Guy robs a bank, teller slips a bill that has a tracking device. Jeff you got a cell phone? Guess what it has a tracking device, when you call 911 they can pin point you within a few feet. How about giving a tracking device to soldiers or people in hostile areas. The possibilities are endless, as are the ones for abusive. The problem lies in not crossing that line.

[PhreeZone 15]

Strong electromagnets aer much safer and much more fun to build

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

Quote

Got a toll tag right now?

No. Don't want one; don't need one; won't allow myself to be forced to get one.

Already the Mighty State is trying to force people to use them: Florida raised the tolls for cars that don't use "SunPass."

How long before the State, in its zeal to be able to keep tabs on EVERYONE, regardless of not being suspected of a crime, pulls a "Ted Kennedy" and institutes a 10,000% surcharge for not using an EZpass-type RFID chip for travel? Their claim will be, "Well, we're not BANNING you from traveling! You're still 'free' to travel..."

-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[PhreeZone 15]

Go read the Screensaver thread and weigh in on email/voice/data monitoring. I'd love to hear your take on what I think is a huge invasion of privacy.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[tunaplanet 0]

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I think is a huge invasion of privacy.

Huge but neccessary. There are hundreds of plots and crimes of all kinds detected and revealed by Echelon. Some I can not post on a message board but there are many I can. It is definitly something we need to have continue to happen.

Forty-two

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

In due time. I'll probably agree. I detest invasion of privacy.
It's part of why I will not visit England again. That bullshit surveillance state they run there, everyone under constant nanny supervision by the police via cameras...

-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[free_man 0]

Quote

Quote

I think is a huge invasion of privacy.

Huge but neccessary. There are hundreds of plots and crimes of all kinds detected and revealed by Echelon. Some I can not post on a message board but there are many I can. It is definitly something we need to have continue to happen.

__________________________________________


In no way does violating the unalienable rights of the Citizens justifiable because you detect or reveal plots or crimes.

Not in a free nation, based on the rule of law and not the rule of man.

“…because I hope you know this, I think you do…all governments are lying cocksuckers.”
Bill Hicks, Relentless

[tunaplanet 0]

Quote

In no way does violating the unalienable rights of the Citizens justifiable because you detect or reveal plots or crimes.

I disagree. But hey...everyone has an opinion.

Forty-two

[free_man 0]

Quote
In no way does violating the unalienable rights of the Citizens justifiable because you detect or reveal plots or crimes.

I disagree. But hey...everyone has an opinion.

____________________________________________________

If you believe in collectivism (communism,socialism,fascism) it is justifiable or necessary.

These are not the principles America was founded upon. America was founded upon personal rights, and the ownership of private property. I own myself, the state does not.

My uanalienable rights come from the Creator as our forefathers stated in the Declaration of Independence, not from any government or state, and they have absolutely no authority to violate them.


Amendment IV

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Slaves are controlled, numbered tracked and traced not free people.

Most people today would probably choose slavery over freedom, even if they did know the difference. After all, freedom is harder - it requires full unlimited responsibility and accountability for one's life. Most people today are too lazy to be free.

“…because I hope you know this, I think you do…all governments are lying cocksuckers.”
Bill Hicks, Relentless

[tunaplanet 0]

People that have your mindset are definitly in the dark when it comes to what it takes to defend this country.

It's nothing against you personally...it's simply the fact that you're uneducated in this area of knowledge.

Quoting the amendments sounds great and may make you feel all patriotic on the inside...but in the end you have to sleep with snakes and wolves to emerge on top.

Forty-two

[free_man 0]

: People that have your mindset are definitly in the dark when it comes to what it takes to defend this country.

It's nothing against you personally...it's simply the fact that you're uneducated in this area of knowledge.

Quoting the amendments sounds great and may make you feel all patriotic on the inside...but in the end you have to sleep with snakes and wolves to emerge on top.
________________________________________________

People like you who are uneducated about what freedom is, and the foundations of America, can only resort to Government by force, by the barrel of a gun.

You justify violating the rights of Citizens as defending this country. This may make you feel better inside,
but the reality is this is not how to defend the country.

More Government bureaucracy, more surveilance, more laws only moves us closer to a totalitarian state.

I quoted the LAW. The SUPREME LAW of the land. How about holding Government to it.


"It is not the function of our government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error"
United States Supreme Court - American Communications Association v. Douds

Sorry for another quote, but because I am a student of history, and a seeker of the truth, I find a lot of relevance in them.

“…because I hope you know this, I think you do…all governments are lying cocksuckers.”
Bill Hicks, Relentless

[free_man 0]

The 9-11 Intelligence Bill: More Bureaucracy, More Intervention, Less Freedom

Rep. Ron Paul, MD

Before the US House of Representatives, October 8, 2004

Mr. Speaker, the 9/11 Recommendations Implementation Act (HR 10) is yet another attempt to address the threat of terrorism by giving more money and power to the federal bureaucracy. Most of the reforms contained in this bill will not make America safer, though they definitely will make us less free. HR 10 also wastes American taxpayer money on unconstitutional and ineffective foreign aid programs. Congress should make America safer by expanding liberty and refocusing our foreign policy on defending this nation's vital interests, rather than expanding the welfare state and wasting American blood and treasure on quixotic crusades to “democratize” the world.

Disturbingly, HR 10 creates a de facto national ID card by mandating new federal requirements that standardize state-issued drivers licenses and birth certificates and even require including biometric identifiers in such documents. State drivers license information will be stored in a national database, which will include information about an individual's driving record!

Nationalizing standards for drivers licenses and birth certificates, and linking them together via a national database, creates a national ID system pure and simple. Proponents of the national ID understand that the public remains wary of the scheme, so they attempt to claim they’re merely creating new standards for existing state IDs. Nonsense! This legislation imposes federal standards in a federal bill, and it creates a federalized ID regardless of whether the ID itself is still stamped with the name of your state. It is just a matter of time until those who refuse to carry the new licenses will be denied the ability to drive or board an airplane. Domestic travel restrictions are the hallmark of authoritarian states, not free republics.


rest of article here:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul210.html

“…because I hope you know this, I think you do…all governments are lying cocksuckers.”
Bill Hicks, Relentless

[tunaplanet 0]

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I find a lot of relevance in them.

There's more relevance in reality.

Forty-two