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Ron 7
Quote"One day President Roosevelt told me that he was asking publicly for suggestions about what the war should be called. I said at once 'The Unnecessary War'. "
Churchill, from the same era as your quotes, he might even have been referring to Patton, fits today as it did back then.
It was unnecessary for the NAZI's to attack. But it was VERY necessary to defend and fight back.
No amount for love would have gotten Hitler to stop killing Jews and invading other countries.
Or do you think a "love fest" would have stopped him?
Funny you bring up Ghandi, a guy that did what he though was right even when others thought he was wrong.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
"Or do you think a "love fest" would have stopped him?"
Nope thats not really what I'm saying.
What I'm saying is that the war with Iraq was unneccessary, and if Patton's words are as valid today as they were 60 yrs ago, then Churchill's words equally are.
"Funny you bring up Ghandi, a guy that did what he though was right even when others thought he was wrong. "
Difference being Ghandi was proved right by history, the case for Bush and Blair's war is already in doubt.
Ghandi was a great leader and a true role model, Bush and Blair, well, they are hardly comparable to Ghandi, are they....
Nope thats not really what I'm saying.
What I'm saying is that the war with Iraq was unneccessary, and if Patton's words are as valid today as they were 60 yrs ago, then Churchill's words equally are.
"Funny you bring up Ghandi, a guy that did what he though was right even when others thought he was wrong. "
Difference being Ghandi was proved right by history, the case for Bush and Blair's war is already in doubt.
Ghandi was a great leader and a true role model, Bush and Blair, well, they are hardly comparable to Ghandi, are they....
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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson
He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson
Ron 7
QuoteWhat I'm saying is that the war with Iraq was unneccessary, and if Patton's words are as valid today as they were 60 yrs ago, then Churchill's words equally are.
We should let history decide.
QuoteDifference being Ghandi was proved right by history, the case for Bush and Blair's war is already in doubt.
He was in doubt at the time also...
Like I said I will wait for history to make the final call.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
billvon 2,476
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Last warning, Ron. You cannot call people names even if you think they deserve it; that post has been deleted.
Ron 7
QuoteThe "either you are with us or against us" speeches he has given more than backs up my point.
In your opinon only. Fact is simple, you are either for or against anything. (Unless you are Kerry, then you can be for and against)
And again it is just your opinion anyway. It seems most of the US is not on your side.
QuoteYou are much to eager to support violence
You don't know me at all. You only think you know me based off of a personal situation between us.
I do support force when it is needed, and served in the Army to be a part of that force if need be.
I consider my Army time as a selfless service to the country, you don't agree..Thats your right.
Still you have not shown how politics alone without the threat of force does anything in a global perspective.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
Reality check!!
I've got to save Ron from the wrath of the green ones
If we lived in a perfect world it would be called heaven! Unforunately we poor mortals are living on a imperfect planet whose entire living population will be dead in short order, only to be replaced by our ancestors. Very few of us will even be remembered in a hundred years. People like Patton, Ghandi, Jefferson, Alexander and countless others lived in this same world; and they made a difference. They will remembered!
We can all sit here, stealing time from our work, and say this/that is right/wrong or this person or that person is a savior/'twat'. The truth of the matter is: what are you/I doing to make this world closer to perfect.
Whether commanding the all-American force landing in Africa, Seventh Army during the invasion of Sicily or the Third Army in France, Patton made a difference; hell he was even in the 1912 Olympics!
Thought for the day: Be Somebody Who Made a Difference! you might be remembered.
Thank God(and Ron Walker) that I skydive, it gets me off of this world for a minute or two.
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I've got to save Ron from the wrath of the green ones
If we lived in a perfect world it would be called heaven! Unforunately we poor mortals are living on a imperfect planet whose entire living population will be dead in short order, only to be replaced by our ancestors. Very few of us will even be remembered in a hundred years. People like Patton, Ghandi, Jefferson, Alexander and countless others lived in this same world; and they made a difference. They will remembered!
We can all sit here, stealing time from our work, and say this/that is right/wrong or this person or that person is a savior/'twat'. The truth of the matter is: what are you/I doing to make this world closer to perfect.
Whether commanding the all-American force landing in Africa, Seventh Army during the invasion of Sicily or the Third Army in France, Patton made a difference; hell he was even in the 1912 Olympics!
Thought for the day: Be Somebody Who Made a Difference! you might be remembered.
Thank God(and Ron Walker) that I skydive, it gets me off of this world for a minute or two.
----------
wmw999 2,177
QuoteFact is simple, you are either for or against anything.
I call bullshit on this, unless you take context into account.
Are you for or against living? How about if you're a vegetable with no chance for a meaningful recovery? Do the circumstances change your opinion?
Let's say there's a young jumper, 200 jumps, swooping his 1.4 loaded stiletto. You'd holler at him with just that information.
Then you find out that he's from SDC, trained on Stilettos, has taken 2 canopy courses, has over 100 jumps just for canopy control, and has video taken periodically so he can analyze his performance with a more experienced swooper. Sound different?
If you focus on a one-fact-one-opinion way of thinking, you eliminate the possibility that a better decision can be made. Sometimes you have to rush to get enough information, but not always.
Wendy W.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)
Ron 7
QuoteQuote
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Fact is simple, you are either for or against anything.
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I call bullshit on this, unless you take context into account.
Thats your right, but it does not change the simple fact that you are wrong.
QuoteAre you for or against living?
For living.
QuoteHow about if you're a vegetable with no chance for a meaningful recovery?
Against in that situation.
See for or against. Not both.
QuoteIf you focus on a one-fact-one-opinion way of thinking, you eliminate the possibility that a better decision can be made.
None of this changes the FACT that unless you are John Kerry you are for or against a subject.
For people living.
Against people living as a vegtable if they don't want.
Two seperate situations. Two different views on them.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
billvon 2,476
>For living.
Flip.
>Against in that situation.
Flop. To turn that into a campaign ad:
"John Kerry says he is for life. Yet he voted to kill a woman living in a hospital. Can we really trust John Kerry to take care of our health care system?"
>See for or against. Not both.
You are for and against life. Which is a flip-flop. It's also what reasonable people do when faced with tough decisions - sometimes decide one thing, sometimes decide another. If the guy who does it is on your side, he's flexible and smart. If he's on the other side, he's a flip-flopper.
>Two seperate situations. Two different views on them.
Exactly. A flip flop - but for a good reason.
Flip.
>Against in that situation.
Flop. To turn that into a campaign ad:
"John Kerry says he is for life. Yet he voted to kill a woman living in a hospital. Can we really trust John Kerry to take care of our health care system?"
>See for or against. Not both.
You are for and against life. Which is a flip-flop. It's also what reasonable people do when faced with tough decisions - sometimes decide one thing, sometimes decide another. If the guy who does it is on your side, he's flexible and smart. If he's on the other side, he's a flip-flopper.
>Two seperate situations. Two different views on them.
Exactly. A flip flop - but for a good reason.
Ron 7
Quote>For living.
Flip.
>Against in that situation.
Flop. To turn that into a campaign ad:
"John Kerry says he is for life. Yet he voted to kill a woman living in a hospital. Can we really trust John Kerry to take care of our health care system?"
Nice try bill, but no dice.
I didn't vote to kill the woman, then vote to stop the same act which is what Kerry does.
Like I said:
"Go fish!"
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
billvon 2,476
>I didn't vote to kill the woman, then vote to stop the same act which
>is what Kerry does.
You said you would be against life if the woman was a vegetable. If you were a senator, and you voted your conscience, then you'd vote to allow removal of life support in such situations (i.e. "kill the woman" in campaign rhetoric.) You would be both for life, and against it, if you simplify things down as much as the Kerry attacks have.
Now, if you want to introduce something additional to your decisions, that her mental state has something to do with it, fine. However, if you were a democrat trying to do the same for Kerry, republicans would scream "You are for death and against it at the same time! Flip flop! What part of 'VOTED TO KILL' don't you understand? Is she dead or not, can you answer that simple question?"
>is what Kerry does.
You said you would be against life if the woman was a vegetable. If you were a senator, and you voted your conscience, then you'd vote to allow removal of life support in such situations (i.e. "kill the woman" in campaign rhetoric.) You would be both for life, and against it, if you simplify things down as much as the Kerry attacks have.
Now, if you want to introduce something additional to your decisions, that her mental state has something to do with it, fine. However, if you were a democrat trying to do the same for Kerry, republicans would scream "You are for death and against it at the same time! Flip flop! What part of 'VOTED TO KILL' don't you understand? Is she dead or not, can you answer that simple question?"
wmw999 2,177
When you're not willing to discuss what someone else finds to be important in making a decision, and call them wrong because they include things you don't think are important, how can you say you're debating the same thing?
Is the guy who wants to live, even if a vegetable, due to his religious beliefs wrong? It's his life, his beliefs. And his family will decide.
What about the guy who considers being a paraplegic to be "no meaningless life?"
To me it's extremely important to make sure I have enough information to make a decision I can live with, considering as many factors as I can.
Wendy W.
Is the guy who wants to live, even if a vegetable, due to his religious beliefs wrong? It's his life, his beliefs. And his family will decide.
What about the guy who considers being a paraplegic to be "no meaningless life?"
To me it's extremely important to make sure I have enough information to make a decision I can live with, considering as many factors as I can.
Wendy W.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)
Have you seen that woman, if you are talking about Terri Schiavo? She is not a vegetable. She is severely brain damaged but recognises her family. She smiles and giggles. Should we allow her husband to kill her by starving her to death, just because she is an inconvenience? Funny how liberals feel that murderers' lives should be preserved but the weak and inconveniants should die.
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wmw999 2,177
Her parents say she recognizes them. Her husband says she doesn't. Her doctors (if I remember rightly) say that she should be incapable of that kind of response based on the brain function left. She is in what's considered to be a vegetative state, and I would want to be disconnected from my feeding tube under those circumstances.
So what are the facts? Are the parents lying or is the husband or are the doctors? Or is each set of people trying to make the best of a horrible situation, with each of them having different personal perspectives.
Wendy W.
So what are the facts? Are the parents lying or is the husband or are the doctors? Or is each set of people trying to make the best of a horrible situation, with each of them having different personal perspectives.
Wendy W.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)
Churchill, from the same era as your quotes, he might even have been referring to Patton, fits today as it did back then.
Oh and as for pacifists (you actually called them treehuggers, but hey) not changing anything...Ghandi anyone? The way of the sword is not the only way...
He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson
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