France Firm Over Headscarf Ban

JohnRich · August 30, 2004

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The (Christian) Inquistion tortured some 35,000 people to death for not worshipping in the approved way.

Yes, and the Crusades were no picnic either. But that was long ago in the past, and this thread is about the present. Please try and stay focused on the subject.

Perhaps you believe that past crimes by Christians justifies current crimes by Muslims?

Frenchy68 · August 30, 2004

many Muslims saying they feel unfairly targeted

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I'd be surprised if the thinking behind the law was NOT the radical muslim community

I still don't see the point of having the law***
Some will justify it as being the extension of the ban of prayers in public schools (by the way, the law extends to all public buildings, including hospitals, not only schools).
Also, the ban does (obviously) NOT cover private school and businesses.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

Frenchy68 · August 30, 2004

One person I worked with this summer who was training to be an English teacher told me she had come across this issue and the Christians and Jews were not having this enforced***
I believe it is pretty much enforced in schools. Don't know about other public sectors. But I wouldn't be surprised if there is indeed selective enforcement.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

JohnRich · August 30, 2004

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The original "Zealots" were Jews who carried their fight to the death (Masada) and killed Roman sympathizers with daggers.

That's not exactly an accurate summary of what happened at Masada. The Roman's occupied the Jewish land by military force, destroying places like Jerusalem in the process. The Jews started a revolt, which the Romans brutally put down. Many of he hard core Jews fled to Masada for defense, to keep from becoming slaves, or worse.

kallend · August 30, 2004

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The (Christian) Inquistion tortured some 35,000 people to death for not worshipping in the approved way.

Yes, and the Crusades were no picnic either. But that was long ago in the past, and this thread is about the present. Please try and stay focused on the subject.

Perhaps you believe that past crimes by Christians justifies current crimes by Muslims?

I think that history is VERY important.
"Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it." George Santayana

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

turtlespeed · August 30, 2004

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Don't assume that these girls are forced into this. They seriously believe that they should wear the headscarves.

Do you think we should ban Amish bonnets?

i show my ignorance - I wasn't aware that there were Amish living in France - But I never thought about it - Why wouldn't there be?

I'm not saying that the ISSUE is correct - their actions are, though. They are giving the terrorists the big FU and that is it. The US has a non-negotiate policy as well.

I think Everyone should.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

billvon · August 30, 2004

>But that was long ago in the past, and this thread is about the present.

Methinks there is still plenty of Christian religious violence if you look in places like Ireland. And there are groups in the US that kill people and blow up buildings in the name of Christ - check out armyofgod.com.

>Perhaps you believe that past crimes by Christians justifies current crimes by Muslims?

No more so than current crimes by Christians are justified by anything. It's silly for either religion to claim the moral upper hand.

happythoughts · August 30, 2004

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The original "Zealots" were Jews who carried their fight to the death (Masada) and killed Roman sympathizers with daggers.

That's not exactly an accurate summary of what happened at Masada. The Roman's occupied the Jewish land by military force, destroying places like Jerusalem in the process. The Jews started a revolt, which the Romans brutally put down. Many of he hard core Jews fled to Masada for defense, to keep from becoming slaves, or worse.

Source

You are right, summaries leave out information. Too much detail can pull people away from the original intent and into a discussion of trivia.

Many fled to Masada. You have to remember why Masada was available for them to go to.

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Some 75 years after Herod’s death, at the beginning of the Revolt of the Jews against the Romans in 66 CE, a group of Jewish rebels overcame the Roman garrison of Masada.

Some were fleeing, but after they got there, it wasn't benign existence.

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After the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple (70 CE) they were joined by zealots and their families who had fled from Jerusalem. With Masada as their base, they raided and harassed the Romans for two years.

Eventually, they did make the "slave or death" choice.

mardigrasbob · August 30, 2004

Oh God! Christian terrorists! Run for your lives!

On the Mossada discussion, I believe that Mossada was a jewish fortress that took years of seige to capture. Upon entry the Romans found that the inhabitants had committed suicide. Hench the name of the Israeli secret service is the Mossad.
Jews are blamed for killing Christ. Torquemada in the Spanish Inquisition killed thousands of 'dirty jews'(Jews who had converted the Christianity but were secretly still practicing their Jewish faith). Christians jailed Copurnicus in the 1500s and Galileo in 1600s. All religions have their zealots, it seems that it is Islam's turn.

----

Frenchy68 · August 30, 2004

Captors just extended the ultimatum by 24 hours. They released a video to Al-Jazeera, where the 2 journalists are seen calling for the French people to demonstrate against the ban of veils (demonstrations are what we do best...).

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

Darius11 · August 30, 2004

I think the big difference is that a Scarf is a requirement, not a show of hey look I have a cool cross. It is required as a part of the Muslim religion. It doesn't matter if the French think it is not normal or not important. It is the equivalent of saying your not allowed to go to church on Sunday. I might not care cause I don't go to church but I can see how that is wrong.
Wearing a cross around your neck is not a requirement. Having Hejob or a scarf is.

The other problem is this will only fuel the fire of the extremist. This is how resentment was built in Iran witch lead to the revelotuion. Not good not good at all.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

Frenchy68 · August 30, 2004

t. It is the equivalent of saying your not allowed to go to church on Sunday

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Not really. No one is preventing anyone from going to the Mosque.

It is required as a part of the Muslim religion.

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So is the wearing of the Kippah to some orthodox jews.
So is the absence of shaving in certain religions. Yet most Western armed forces have units that prohibit facial hair. Not very respectful of the freedom of religion...

The other problem is this will only fuel the fire of the extremist***
Very, very true

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

JohnRich · August 30, 2004

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I think that history is VERY important.

Do you think that people don't notice the way you always weasel around and refuse to answer simple, direct questions?

Your comments are worthless, since you refuse to just come right out and say what you mean.

Frenchy68 · August 30, 2004

I think the big difference is that a Scarf is a requirement, not a show of hey look I have a cool cr***

Only according to a certain interpretation of the Koran. Much like some Christians, jews, etc... follow a certain interpretation of their faith.
Afghanistan and Turkey are both muslim countries, yet the way they practice and show their faith are very different.
Hell, I've seen guys crucify themselves (literally, on crosses, with nails) in the Philippines for Easter. Not sure that was a "requirement" of the christian religion...

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

JohnRich · August 30, 2004

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With Masada as their base, they raided and harassed the Romans for two years.

Correct, because the Romans were occupying their land. You keep omitting the other side of the story. Why is that?

It's like trying to make the American Indians of the 1800's look bad, by only saying that the Indians attacked white settlers.

peacefuljeffrey · August 30, 2004

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I'm sorry but these girls believe that they are required to wear this dress this way as part of their religion.

Whilst I may not agree with it I do believe that people should be able to wear crosses, skullcaps or headscarves, whatever their religion.

I don't agree with the thugs that are threating to kill over this but that should not affect whether the school kids can wear headscarves.

I agree. It is this squelching of religious freedom that France is engaged in that makes me disrespect them. If they think that the best way to defeat intolerance by some demographic group against another is to eliminate the markings that identify someone as belonging to a particular demographic, they are fools.

Is the best way to not get discriminated against as a Muslim or Jew to not let anyone know you are a Muslim or Jew??

Is the best way to prevent Neo-Nazis from hurting people who belong to groups they hate to make sure they are unable to identify who belongs to what group? Or is it maybe better to try to come down hard on the Neo-Nazis?

I don't know what France thinks it is saving by banning the overt symbols of these religions, but whatever it is, it is not worth the clamping down on freedom of expression as they are doing. That sale of liberty will not be buying any safety any time soon.

Now, with that said...
I do not understand why wearing certain things (crucifixes, stars of David, head scarves, etc.) is so damned important? It seems to be more a shoving-it-in-someone's-face thing. Can't a person be a proud Jew without having to wear a gold necklace with a star of David? Can't a person be a good Catholic without having to wear a gold crucifix? The symbols do not equal the religion. They are just symbols. In fact, idol worship is forbidden anyway, right? If you fear that if your symbol is taken away, your religion has suffered a blow, then you were not true to the belief in the first place.

I am not arguing that people should tolerate the banning of the symbols just because I think the symbols should not mean as much as they do. I am just saying that IF the symbols were diminished in importance to what they should be, the banning would practically be a non-issue.

Thank god we have a Constitution over here that would prohibit such a move by our government. I guess France doesn't?

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

Frenchy68 · August 31, 2004

Thank god we have a Constitution over here that would prohibit such a move by our government. I guess France doesn'***
France, like the US, has a constitution that protects the individuals freedom of religion as well as freedom of speech. The French constitution, much like the US constitution, does not address the issue of the exhibiting of religious symbols. From there, laws and decreats are passed, and struck down if deemed unconstitutional. I remember having to sign a document stating I was not a communist few years ago in order to enter the US. Not a problem since I am not one, but I do not remember the US constitution specifying that being a communist was not covered by the freedom of expression.
I also see many schools around the country banning certain "gang" clothing.
Difference of interpretation of what protection under the constitution means, I guess...

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

peacefuljeffrey · August 31, 2004

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"GOOD FOR THEM"

That is a sad answer.
So it is ok to disrespect someone’s religious requirement as long as it is about Muslims.

I am surprised by the answer of some in here.
I wonder how you feel if they say you are not allowed to wear a cross around your neck how about if they ban church on Sundays. I bet that would piss you off. Repeat after me Hypocrisy.

Does god or the bible say or require that christians wear crucifixes?

If not, then it's a personal choice -- pride, if you will -- that makes people wish to wear these little symbols of their religious affiliation. Not wearing a crucifix does not make any given person "less" of a christian -- they may be MORE of one, since they are not dependent on ostentatious jewelry to "show the world" who they are and what they believe. They do their worshiping privately and therefore with greater likelihood of sincerity, since they're not doing it to show or prove it to anyone else.

If people weren't so hung up on their symbols and showiness, this would be a non-issue.

Either way, France is stepping on its dick with this.

A totally separate issue is the growing and worrisome influx of muslim culture into France. I'd like to see how they plan to deal with that.

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

mardigrasbob · August 31, 2004

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Either way, France is stepping on its dick with this.

A totally separate issue is the growing and worrisome influx of muslim culture into France. I'd like to see how they plan to deal with that.

Jeffrey,I would agree with you, but I can't go near the fire. Bad Bob Bad Bob Bad Bob

edit: never mind, the poll was in SC, so therefore I agree with you, this once!
---------------

Frenchy68 · August 31, 2004

A totally separate issue is the growing and worrisome influx of muslim culture into France. I'd like to see how they plan to deal with that***
The influx of Muslim culture is not a bad thing. The rise of extremism and fundamentalism is.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

happythoughts · August 31, 2004

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Correct, because the Romans were occupying their land. You keep omitting the other side of the story. Why is that?

Because I wasn't discussing that before we launched down this bunny trail. My whole point is that, through time, there have been religious zealots. I didn't mention the "other side" of any example because I wasn't talking about justifying anything. I merely mentioned similar examples.

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It's like trying to make the American Indians of the 1800's look bad, by only saying that the Indians attacked white settlers.

Perhaps in your view. Please do not attribute opinions to me that I have not stated. I said nothing of that type.

My only point was that there have been religious groups involved in violence. I never tried to support any of their rationalizations for the violence. I said that it has existed.

kallend · August 31, 2004

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I think that history is VERY important.

Do you think that people don't notice the way you always weasel around and refuse to answer simple, direct questions?

Your comments are worthless, since you refuse to just come right out and say what you mean.

That seems pretty close to a personal attack.
Our current situation grew out of our past actions. You should be able to see that without my having to write an essay about it.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

peacefuljeffrey · August 31, 2004

5{ly separate issue is the growing and worrisome influx of muslim culture into France. I'd like to see how they plan to deal with that***
The influx of Muslim culture is not a bad thing. The rise of extremism and fundamentalism is.

falxori · August 31, 2004

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Hench the name of the Israeli secret service is the Mossad.

errr, no

the mossad's full name is "the israeli institute of inteligence and special operations" , and "mossad" in hebrew means "institute" which is used for short...

but your idea was cool also

as for the french laws. i don't care for it, but i know a lot of french people and i know how they think.
for them , keeping the seperation between state and religion is a lot more important than you think, and the personal freedom (in public places) is secondary to keeping the secular nature of the republic.

as they see it (and again, its not my personal view) , at home, do whatever you want. but in a public place, keep the nature of the republic.
moreover, i've heard from many french things like: "this is the french way, if you want to live by muslim countries standards, you can go live there".

i can understand them wanting to keep the french ways but i doubt laws are the way to do it.
O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

Frenchy68 · August 31, 2004

for them , keeping the seperation between state and religion is a lot more important than you think, and the personal freedom (in public places) is secondary to keeping the secular nature of the republic.

as they see it (and again, its not my personal view) , at home, do whatever you want. but in a public place, keep the nature of the republic

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Touché

i can understand them wanting to keep the french ways but i doubt laws are the way to do it.***

Double Touché

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

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France Firm Over Headscarf Ban

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