Gun Dealer Pays for Child's Death

[JohnRich 4]

In the news:

A gun store legally sold a handgun to an adult. The adult buyer subsequently re-sold the gun to a drug dealer. The drug dealer ditched the gun underneath a car. A child found the gun under the car. The child retrieved the gun, pointed it at a 7-year-old friend, and pulled the trigger - killing the friend.

Who did the parents of the dead child sue? The child the pulled the trigger? Nope. The drug dealer that ditched the gun on a public street? Nope. The man who sold the gun to the drug dealer? Nope. They sued the gun store owner, who sold the gun legally.

The outcome of the trial? The gun store owner must pay $850,000.

Full Story: New York Post

[Kennedy 0]

Thankfully we know this won't hold up on appeal.
edit: based on FL, CA, and IL experiences

I think the best example of one of these idiotic lawsuits was when someone sued a gun used in crime, with three intermediary sales, when the manufacturer sold it to a POLICE DEPARTMENT.

Yeah, gun makers should know that a gun they sell to the cops will be used in a crime, and just not do it.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[TomAiello 25]

Hey, who needs personal responsibility when you've got lawyers?

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[turtlespeed 212]

Quote

In the news:

A gun store legally sold a handgun to an adult. The adult buyer subsequently re-sold the gun to a drug dealer. The drug dealer ditched the gun underneath a car. A child found the gun under the car. The child retrieved the gun, pointed it at a 7-year-old friend, and pulled the trigger - killing the friend.

The parents of the dead child sued... the gun store!

The outcome of the trial? The gun store owner must pay $850,000.

Full Story: New York Post

That's IT!

I'm suing the DZ. They let me buy a tandem that led to my aff training and then to my coaching. Then after the coaching, I went on skydiving, the evil bastards, and last week I hurt my knee, and it is THEIR fault!

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Kennedy 0]

Don't forget to sue whoever made your car, because they got you to the DZ to get hurt.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[PhillyKev 0]

You know I'm on your side of the gun issues, but that article doesn't tell the whole story. I've been to that store, and I know the background on this case.

The guy who bought the guns was a frequent customer who used a welfare card for id, then paid cash for guns. He would usually make arrangements to come and buy them after hours. And the guy only bought small, cheap, concealable hand guns.

No, the gun store didn't do anything illegal. But they sure didn't use common sense. I don't have a problem with a jury finding them civilliy liable for contributing to the child's death with unsafe business practices. I would feel the same way about someone who legally sold fireworks to a drunk. Just because you legally can sell guns to someone doesn't mean you have to.

[turtlespeed 212]

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Don't forget to sue whoever made your car, because they got you to the DZ to get hurt.

Maybe I could sue Mom for giving birth to me - or the doctor for not dropping me.

I know - I'll sue GM for making the car that let my parents go ut on a date - hence getting married and giving rise to his giant chain of events.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Jib 0]

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The outcome of the trial? The gun store owner must pay $850,000.

No, that was a settlement.

--------------------------------------------------
the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt

[Ron 7]

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The guy who bought the guns was a frequent customer who used a welfare card for id, then paid cash for guns. He would usually make arrangements to come and buy them after hours. And the guy only bought small, cheap, concealable hand guns.

No, the gun store didn't do anything illegal. But they sure didn't use common sense. I don't have a problem with a jury finding them civilliy liable for contributing to the child's death with unsafe business practices. I would feel the same way about someone who legally sold fireworks to a drunk. Just because you legally can sell guns to someone doesn't mean you have to.

I have a problem with it...

They did nothing wrong. It is this kind of BS that makes me sick.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[PhillyKev 0]

They didn't do anything illegal, but he did do something wrong. He used poor judgment. And that is a legal justification for finding civil liability.

[TomAiello 25]

I've got to go with Ron here.

Holding the gun dealer liable is a bit like holding a bartender liable if you drive drunk when you leave the bar. I don't agree with that, either (yes, I know it's happened).

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[pajarito 0]

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I've got to go with Ron here.

Holding the gun dealer liable is a bit like holding a bartender liable if you drive drunk when you leave the bar. I don't agree with that, either (yes, I know it's happened).

It's even worse. It's much further detached. Crazy stuff!

[Kennedy 0]

What I want to know is are they prosecuting the hell out of that POS who's been selling to felons?

That CS SOB is responsible.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[PhillyKev 0]

What if the bartender sees you dangling your keys, knows they've served you a dozen shots in the past two hours, and then pours you another drink? You don't think they share any responsibility if someone gets killed by that guy that night.

It's poor judgment that a reasonable person could expect to result in tragedy for innocent parties. The bartender doesn't have to stop you from driving, but they don't have to pour you that last drink, either.

This gun shop didn't have to call the ATF and report the guy, but they didn't have to keep selling him guns, either.

[Kennedy 0]

No, this is like holding Anheuser Busch responsible if you leave a bar drunk and drive yourself home, hitting someone along the way.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[PhillyKev 0]

Nope, that would be true if they sued the gun manufacturer (which they did and I don't agree with.). They had no contact with the criminal arms dealer. This gun shop did, and it should have been, and probably was, obvious to them that this guy was exactly that.

[Kennedy 0]

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What if the bartender sees you dangling your keys, knows they've served you a dozen shots in the past two hours, and then pours you another drink?

So if a bartender does that, do you sue the liquor wholesalers?

In your analogy, the strawbuyer is the bartender (who is guilty in both cases), and the gun dealer is the liquor wholesaler.

(make my last post say liquor wholesaler, instead of liquor maker, then tell me what you think)

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[PhillyKev 0]

This guy was not just a strawbuyer. He was an arms dealer.

[TomAiello 25]

Quote

What if the bartender sees you dangling your keys, knows they've served you a dozen shots in the past two hours, and then pours you another drink? You don't think they share any responsibility if someone gets killed by that guy that night.

I don't believe they ought to be held legally liable.

A few years ago, I had a friend die BASE jumping in Norway. He was trying to outfly (in a wingsuit) a ledge that was around 400 feet below the exit. 20 or 30 people told him it was impossible. He wanted to try anyway. With a dozen people standing around watching, he tried it--and bounced off the ledge. Do you think those bystanders were responsible for his death? They _knew_ he would die if he tried that. The could have restrained him, and dragged him off the exit point.

There comes a time when you must accept responsibility for your own actions. And let others take responsibility for theirs.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Ron 7]

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They didn't do anything illegal, but he did do something wrong

What he sold a gun? ITS A GUN SHOP...thats what gun shops do.

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He used poor judgment

Why cause he sold a guy several cheap guns? It's not illegal.

Because he used a welfare ID? Still not Illegal. You say it's stupid...What are people on welfare not allowed to have guns?

The guy paid in cash...Still not illegal...As for you saying it's stupid. What you expect a guy on welfare to have a credit card? Would take a check from a guy on welfare?

Quote

Perry Bruce repeatedly bought small handguns from Jon Sauers, the owner of Sauers Trading, and resold them illegally.

On April 19, 1999, children found one of the guns that Bruce bought under a parked car. A child pointed the revolver at Nafis Jefferson, 7, and pulled the trigger, killing him. Police believe a drug dealer had hidden the gun under the car.

Bruce pleaded guilty to federal gun-trafficking charges in 1998.

Sauers had testified in a deposition that he complied with state and federal law in each sale to Bruce, but that he never asked Bruce why he bought 10 small handguns from him between 1994 and 1997.

10 guns over 3 years...Thats not that much. Hell I have bought 3 guns this YEAR, and traded for another.

So PK are you asying that even thogh this guy didn't break the law, and even though he complied with all regulations...He is guilty?

You want MORE regulations? Maybe the next time I go to buy a gun I should have to get grilled by the shop owner with lights in my face and all that.

Get real.

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"There is a risk of liability that is now real" for gun dealers, said Dennis Henigan, legal director for the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence. "These kinds of transactions occur every day in gun shops in every state in the country."

why am I not surprized these asshats were involved?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[PhillyKev 0]

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They _knew_ he would die if he tried that. The could have restrained him, and dragged him off the exit point.

Like I said, the bartender doesn't have to stop the drunk from driving, the gun dealer doesn't have to call the cops about the suspicious customer, but neither do they have to keep selling to the guy.

Your bystanders didn't charge him to give him a helo lift to the top of the cliff, did they?

[Kennedy 0]

Gun dealer A sells gun to straw buyer B, who sells to drug dealer Dumbass.
Dumbass leaves gun under car and kid 1 shoots kid 2.

Liquor wholesaler A sells to Bar B, who sells to Drunkard Dumbass. Dumbass drives home and hits someone on the way there.


You go after the Dumbass, and the person who sold to them illegaly.

Would you go after the wholesaler?

edit: Yes, Kev, the B is breaking the law in both cases, serving a drunk and selling to a felon

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Jib 0]

Quote

They didn't do anything illegal, but he did do something wrong. He used poor judgment. And that is a legal justification for finding civil liability.

Poor judgment as you describe it is the way things outta be at best, but it still doesn't great a duty to someone you know nothing about.

--------------------------------------------------
the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt

[TomAiello 25]

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Your bystanders didn't charge him to give him a helo lift to the top of the cliff, did they?

Actually, in a peripheral way some of them did. Some of those present were members of the jumping club which runs a service ferrying jumpers to the top of the hill (in a van), and back from the landing area (in a boat).

Why would that make a difference?

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[PhillyKev 0]

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So PK are you asying that even thogh this guy didn't break the law, and even though he complied with all regulations...He is guilty?

You want MORE regulations? Maybe the next time I go to buy a gun I should have to get grilled by the shop owner with lights in my face and all that.

He wasn't found guilty of anything. This was not a criminal trial. I would not support him being charged with a crime. However I do believe he shares in the civil liability. There's a huge difference. And it has nothing to do with more regulations or being grilled by a gun store owner.

You're overlooking that those guns were purchased after hours when no one else was around. You think that was because the gun store owner thought everything was kosher?

There's a lot more to the case that has come to light over the years and I'm not going to try to chase it all down on the internet to show you. But trust me, this guy at the gun store knew exactly who he was selling these to and for what purpose.