Fairenheit 9/11 review

[Trent 0]

To be specific... a lot of libraries are publicly funded. So the librarian knows what you're reading, are you against that? Blockbuster knows what I'm renting and if subpoenaed, they'd give it to the feds. The patriot act doesn't REALLY change that.

Who's labelling people who don't like the Patriot Act "un-American"? The 99% of congress who voted for it? I've never said that myself, I just don't think that it is really worth all the hype.

I could be wrong, but I don't see any NEW ways of surveillance or permissions granted. Just expediting the same things they could always do if they needed to. But I asked for specific sections that you, or someone, could show me that really really gives me something that is worthy of all the excitement. Maybe it's in there, I didn't read all of it, just the parts that seemed pertinent.

I do not notice that the government is watching me any more now then they were 5 years ago.

Oh, hello again!

[crwmike 0]

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Calm down, Mike. Re-read the question, and then, INSTEAD of ranting about something I never said... try answering it.

I asked hoping for honest answers, regardless of what I think.

Calmness here. You asked a rhetorical question. I gave you a rhetorical answer.

Michael

[Zennie 0]

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Is there something specifically that bothers you? Have you really read it or are you reacting to something you read somewhere by someone, attempting to get you angry and upset, made up worst case senarios?

Again, yes I have also read it, and I totally freaked when I read it.

And again, yes there are specific examples of it being used for non-terrorism purposes when it was initially advertised as being strictly for terrorism purposes.

Yes, government snooping bothers me.

It should bother you too.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[sundevil777 94]

Moore's movie does more than "oppose what the administration is doing".

I think it does give our enemy the "warm fuzzy feeling that they just might be justified in attacking the US"

Big difference.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Zennie 0]

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Now suppose I started these same activities here in the US and I said "Al Qaeda should kill the American Infidels and they should start with people whose names start with Z. You still OK with my right to free speech?

Yep.

That's what free speech is all about. The right to express your opinion.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[Trent 0]

No, I asked a specific question about what people think. Really wanting an answer... not rhetoric. I guess I should have started a poll then with only 2 options.

Oh, hello again!

[Zennie 0]

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I do not notice that the government is watching me any more now then they were 5 years ago.

Of course you don't. That's the "secret" part I'm referring to...

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[crwmike 0]

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No, I asked a specific question about what people think. Really wanting an answer... not rhetoric. I guess I should have started a poll then with only 2 options.

Of course you did ...my bad.

Michael

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Is there something specifically that bothers you? Have you really read it or are you reacting to something you read somewhere by someone, attempting to get you angry and upset, made up worst case senarios?

Again, yes I have also read it, and I totally freaked when I read it.

And again, yes there are specific examples of it being used for non-terrorism purposes when it was initially advertised as being strictly for terrorism purposes.

Yes, government snooping bothers me.

It should bother you too.

Why should it bother me? Why on Earth would the govt. want to come and get you or me in the middle of the night? Why ???????

[Zennie 0]

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Why should it bother me? Why on Earth would the govt. want to come and get you or me in the middle of the night? Why

Ummm... maybe because I oppose them and their policies?

It's not like this sort of thing hasn't happened before.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Now suppose I started these same activities here in the US and I said "Al Qaeda should kill the American Infidels and they should start with people whose names start with Z. You still OK with my right to free speech?

Yep.

That's what free speech is all about. The right to express your opinion.

Now suppose that because of my speeches, your familys car is blown up and your mother and father are killed. Do you still support my right to free speech if I now start preaching Al Qaeda should kill all people whose names start with G?

[Zennie 0]

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Now suppose that because of my speeches, your familys car is blown up and your mother and father are killed. Do you still support my right to free speech if I now start preaching Al Qaeda should kill all people whose names start with G?

Yes.

And the people who killed my family should be prosecuted for murder.

Oh, and you should be prosecuted for conspiracy to commit murder if you or your organization had anything to do with it.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[Trent 0]

I'm going to bed, let me know when you want to point out some specific clauses in there that bother you, Ted. Honestly, I'd like to see them becuase I may have totally overlooked them.

Oh, hello again!

[Zennie 0]

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I'm going to bed, let me know when you want to point out some specific clauses in there that bother you, Ted.

Will do.

Sorry I missed the bash this weekend, I was off doing my BASE thingy.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[sundevil777 94]

I think there are limits on costitutional free speech that include advocating criminal violence against others.

I'm no constitutional expert, but I think that is not protected and is not what 'free speech is all about'.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[crwmike 0]

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I think there are limits on costitutional free speech that include advocating criminal violence against others.

I'm no constitutional expert, but I think that is not protected and is not what 'free speech is all about'.

The standard used to be 'Clear and Present Danger'

Now it's, 'we think what you said is clearly irritating'

Michael

[sundevil777 94]

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The standard used to be 'Clear and Present Danger'

Now it's, 'we think what you said is clearly irritating'

I don't think you're a constitutional scholar either.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Zennie 0]

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I think there are limits on costitutional free speech that include advocating criminal violence against others.

Yes, you are correct.

The classical example of limiting free speech is the "yelling fire in a crowded theater" exception.

Basically, where speech becomes a clear and present danger to the general public, it may be limited.

This makes perfect sense. And my guess is that that is where we were heading on this.

But remember, this country was founded upon the principle that people have a fundamental right to express their opposition to the way they are being governed.

The current mindset, which seems to be that opposition to GWB == anti-Americanism is in my mind itself un-American, yet many people seem to accept it without question.

That's my main point.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[sundevil777 94]

Opposition to GWB doesn't make one anti-American.

Saying that we deserved to be attacked does. Many have said that directly and indirectly.

Big difference.

I think a link to the Al Qaeda training manual can serve as a reminder of what we are up against, it is a real war, for our survival.

http://sl.cometsystems.com/r?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.usdoj.gov%2Fag%2Ftrainingmanual.htm&qry=al+queda+training+manual&rnk=1&aff=inkt&v=11&origin=asearch&tmpl=0Aen

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Zennie 0]

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Saying that we deserved to be attacked does. Many have said that directly and indirectly.

Big difference.

I agree with you on that.

But the fact is, there are many, many on the far right who accuse those who oppose GWB or the incursion into Iraq as being "un-American". And this I find very disturbing.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[Zennie 0]

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I think a link to the Al Qaeda training manual can serve as a reminder of what we are up against, it is a real war, for our survival.

Just briefly perusing through it, fascinating reading... thank you for the link.

Speaking for myself... let me clarify that I do NOT oppose battling terrorists or terrorism. My beef is with how we have chosen to do this. Most terrorists of concern to us seem to be in Afghanistan and Paskistan... yet we're in Iraq... why?

In a lot of ways we're seeing a new evolution in warfare. In the ancient days you had columns fighting columns. That evolved into trench warfare, which evolved into more fluid (land) warfare (not to mention the evolution into air superiority) in WW2, and guerrila warfare in Korea & Vietnam.

Now we're seeing an unidentifiable enemy... one who is not associated with any one nation... or has any offical heirarchy. The many-headed hydra, as it were.

Yes that means we must evolve our tactics to counter the threat. I take no issue with that.

I just personally believe that some measures have gone too far and are misdirected.

As usual, we;re on the same side, we just differ in the means by which we deal with the problem.

Personally, I think we should focus our energies in Afghanistan & Paskitan... where the real threat lies.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[Zennie 0]

Ending our unquestioning support of Israel, and putting them on a short leash, wouldn't hurt either.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"The classical example of limiting free speech is the "yelling fire in a crowded theater" exception."

All this particular analogy does, to me anyways, is to highlight the inadequacies in the provisions made for the the theatre goers' security, and the paranoia of the general populace.

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[crwmike 0]

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The standard used to be 'Clear and Present Danger'

Now it's, 'we think what you said is clearly irritating'

I don't think you're a constitutional scholar either.

Being a constitutional scholar is like studying Latin ...sure, it has historical significance but it's dead.

[falxori 0]

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Now we're seeing an unidentifiable enemy... one who is not associated with any one nation... or has any offical heirarchy. The many-headed hydra, as it were

and

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Ending our unquestioning support of Israel, and putting them on a short leash

funny, fighting this "many-headed hydra" is exactly what israel is doing.

fighting the individual gunman is not useful since they are often use innocent civilians as human shields.
the only way to fight it is by targeting the "heads"
although the only way to solve it is by peace, if at all possible...

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."