Z-Hills in the news

[livendive 8]

on CNN and it's not a skydiving fatality. Am I correct that the descriptions of escalating racial tension are a bit exaggerated? I mean it's just a freaking street name!

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ZEPHYRHILLS, Florida (AP) -- The city council of this central Florida town tried to settle a bitter, monthslong dispute by voting Monday to change Martin Luther King Avenue back to its original name of Sixth Avenue, while keeping up street signs with both names.

The 4-1 decision followed almost two hours of public testimony over an issue that turned neighbor against neighbor and exposed racial tensions in this town of 11,000 founded by Union veterans of the Civil War.

"In my opinion, it's just pure evil that has come to the citizens of this town," Donna Church, a white resident, told the city council as she tried not to choke up. "I know people who have known each other 20 years who won't speak to each other anymore."

Sallie Stewart, a white resident who is married to a black man, said the debate that erupted over renaming Sixth Avenue last October to honor the slain civil rights leader had exposed the state of race relations in Zephyrhills, about 25 miles northeast of Tampa.

"Thank God the cover has been pulled off Zephyrhills," Stewart said.

Some opponents said they didn't want to change their addresses and weren't consulted. Others said renaming a street after King could hurt the town's economy, as streets named after him elsewhere frequently run through poor neighborhoods.

Supporters of keeping the street named after King rallied outside City Hall before the meeting holding signs that said "No Justice. No Peace in Zephyrhills" and singing "We Shall Overcome."

"If we can compromise by putting both names on the signs ... that's one token gesture we can make to bring our community back together," said council member Celia Graham.

Ben Youmans, who lives on Sixth Avenue, said he opposed renaming the street because of King's opposition to the Vietnam War.

"I don't consider Martin Luther King to be an icon or a hero to be looked up to," he said.

The council had renamed the street last year after being petitioned by resident Irene Dobson, who thought it was time the town did something to honor King.

Dobson said before the vote that the efforts to return the name to Sixth Avenue were racist.

"They say it's not, but I wasn't born yesterday," she said.

But after the vote, Dobson said she was happy with having both street signs in place.

"I like it. I really do," she said.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[diablopilot 2]

Anywone who's been there will realize quickly what a bassakwards town it is....

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Gawain 0]

Does anyone know how many streets are named Martin Luther King, Jr. Blvd/St/Ave ?? There are thousands. When is the civil rights movement going to realize that the message means more than a f*ck*ng street name? Who cares what the name of the street is...go cruising across Buffalo...er...MLK Jr. Avenue in Tampa...

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[ladyskydiver 0]

Actually, there were picketers around for awhile trying to get support for keeping the street name Martin Luther King Ave.

Haven't seen them since the below decision was made so I'm guessing they were happy with the compromise.

Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Does anyone know how many streets are named Martin Luther King, Jr. Blvd/St/Ave ?? There are thousands. When is the civil rights movement going to realize that the message means more than a f*ck*ng street name? Who cares what the name of the street is...go cruising across Buffalo...er...MLK Jr. Avenue in Tampa...

I forgot what comedian it was, but someone I heard made the observation that streets named for Martin Luther King Jr. are usually the shittiest streets in the shittiest neighborhoods of whatever location they're found in.

The one we have in West Palm Beach has crack dealers, crack addicts, and all kinds of shootings and crime. It is NOT where you want to be.

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[baa75 0]

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I forgot what comedian it was, but someone I heard made the observation that streets named for Martin Luther King Jr. are usually the shittiest streets in the shittiest neighborhoods of whatever location they're found in.

The one we have in West Palm Beach has crack dealers, crack addicts, and all kinds of shootings and crime. It is NOT where you want to be.

The intersection of Martin Luther King Jr. Ave & Malcolm X Ave in DC was right off the main gate of the Air Force Base I lived on.

You could sit at the main gate and listen to the gun shots and watch the muzzle flashes like they were fireworks. Even had a car roll up to the gate on fire.

BettyAnn

Getting married? Check out my website!

[tkhayes 150]

yes it is pretty embarrassing to be here right now. The town is not really racist, but there are certainly racist tendancies amoungst many people.

City Council, by changing th name back to 6th Ave did nothing but help fuel those feelings and tendancies and made us the praise of a few White-based groups and websites, etc.

They decided to keep the MLK signs up and leave the name as 6th Ave. Not something I am happy with, but the people who live there seem to be happy with it, so who am I to care - right?

Bugs the shot out of me that elected officials cannot see the damage that gets done with decisions like this.
TK

[Ron 7]

Well living in Zhills you will know a few more things.

1. The City never asked the people on 6th street what they thought...They should have been asked.

A 1987 ordinance that deals with requests for street name changes. The ordinance says any property owner living on a street, or whose property abuts the street, may request a name change. It also says ALL property owners on the street must approve the name change.


Not ALL of them wanted the name change...It should have stopped right there.

2. I have never been to a city where MLK was in a good neighborhood...And trust me 6th ave by the Airport, the Otis Moody neihborhood, is NOT a good neighborhood. (Unless you like crack). and several people were afraid that that would lower home values....And it did. When the street did get changed several homes on that street went up for sale.

3. The petition that was started to rename the street.
was started by a woman, Irene Dobson, didn't even LIVE in the city limits. And it had only 100 signatures...Most of which were from people who DID NOT live in the city...Why would a petition from non residents of a city be taken into account to change a CITY street? I say we start a petition to change Pennsivlana Ave. in DC. to Freefall lane.

4. The opposition got almost 500 people who LIVE in the city to sign a petition to block it...

A woman who didn't live in the City got a petition of 100 people most of which did not live in the City to change a name of a street in a city they didn't live in.

The name change was done against a City ordanance, and in fact it was a surprise to some of the people who lived on the street.

500 people (Who lived in the city) signed a petition to change it back.

Council members lost elections over this and the next board changed it back.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[happythoughts 0]

I don't see why it's an issue. The residents never refer to it as 6th ave or MLK. It's called "Crack Road".

[flyhi 24]

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I forgot what comedian it was, but someone I heard made the observation that streets named for Martin Luther King Jr. are usually the shittiest streets in the shittiest neighborhoods of whatever location they're found in.

Chris Rock

Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics.

[tkhayes 150]

The city does not follow its own ordinaces on many occasions. We built a hangar and fuel depot, as well as an RV Park without following City ordinaces. We also have trash dumpsters that are outside of the ordinaces, we regularly approach the City to bypass existing ordinances as do most businesses in the City from one time or another.

I do not feel that is a good enough reason to raise racial tensions and create hatred around the City.

Pretty small item, renaming a street, to cauase such damage to the city's reputation.

Is the City proud to be 'praised' within the ranks of Stormfront.org? Is the City proud to be labelled by the rest of the country as racist? Can this be good? I doubt it.

So the 'democrats' win with the democratic process, and the City loses future grants, reputation, tourism and gets set back decades in the minds of the rest of the country.

Perhaps if those folks that were not 'consulted' watch their tax bills climb over the next few years because federal money does nto come in, they might reconsider.

But more than likely they will blame the blacks for the controversy.
tk

[kallend 1,679]

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Does anyone know how many streets are named Martin Luther King, Jr. Blvd/St/Ave ?? There are thousands. When is the civil rights movement going to realize that the message means more than a f*ck*ng street name? Who cares what the name of the street is...go cruising across Buffalo...er...MLK Jr. Avenue in Tampa...

I forgot what comedian it was, but someone I heard made the observation that streets named for Martin Luther King Jr. are usually the shittiest streets in the shittiest neighborhoods of whatever location they're found in.

The one we have in West Palm Beach has crack dealers, crack addicts, and all kinds of shootings and crime. It is NOT where you want to be.

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Same applies to Washington, Jefferson, Adams and Jackson streets in much of Chicago. Your point is?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Ron 7]

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The city does not follow its own ordinaces on many occasions. We built a hangar and fuel depot, as well as an RV Park without following City ordinaces. We also have trash dumpsters that are outside of the ordinaces, we regularly approach the City to bypass existing ordinances as do most businesses in the City from one time or another.

And all these ordinances that get overlooked hurt no one or even effected anyone. Changing the name of the street that someone owns a house effects all of the people on that street. Home prices went down due to the stigma of being on MLK. Ideal or not it did happen.

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we regularly approach the City to bypass existing ordinances as do most businesses in the City from one time or another.

These people were not a buisness..they were 100 people who most didn't even live in the City wanting to change the name of a street. 100 vs 500 is simple math for me.

The correct answer would be to have a new street, a new park, or a new library after him. Not changing an already existing place and renaming it. That way no one would get upset.

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I do not feel that is a good enough reason to raise racial tensions and create hatred around the City.

Agreed, but the people who were affected by the change do deserve a voice in the matter. If the people on the street voted for it that would be one thing, but most voted against it. It is their homes, and it is their street. I think its clear they didn't want it.

Plus I don't think non city residents should have a call in the cities politics.

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Pretty small item, renaming a street, to cauase such damage to the city's reputation.

Would you say that if it was your house that dropped in value?

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Is the City proud to be 'praised' within the ranks of Stormfront.org? Is the City proud to be labelled by the rest of the country as racist? Can this be good? I doubt it.

Well when you consider that this city was founded as a retirment community for UNION soldiers...I would hope that people would consider that the city was founded by people who fought to give blacks equal rights long before MLK was even alive.

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So the 'democrats' win with the democratic process, and the City loses future grants, reputation, tourism and gets set back decades in the minds of the rest of the country.

500 vs 100 is still easy math...And this country was founded on the right for a persons voice to be heard. The people did speak, and it was shown what the majority wanted. The democratic system worked.

Now, I don't see how the city is going to lose grants or tourism from this. For the first place the street still has the name MLK...

As for Zhills being the seen as "backwards"...Well we already are, and I doubt this will have any real effect on that view..."Zephyrhills, Home of newly weds and nearly deads." Has been the unofficial moto of Zhills since I first lived here in 1980.

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Perhaps if those folks that were not 'consulted' watch their tax bills climb over the next few years because federal money does nto come in, they might reconsider.

That or they will rejoyce at the fact their homes didn't lose value. Where did you see the City loosing federal money? I have not seen that.

Besides like I said before the simple answer was to name the next street, park, library, school, ect after MLK then there would have been no issue.

The issue was with the people who live there having a change forced on them with out their voices being heard.

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But more than likely they will blame the blacks for the controversy.

The uneducated ones will, but the true fault is with the City for not doing the right thing in the first place.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[tonyhathaway 0]

Hey if it's "just" a name on the street, try changing a name to "grand wizard avenue" and see what comes about. Everyone has their heroes, the problem is that some are accepted heroes, and some end up on Jerry Springer. -Tony

My O.C.D. has me chasing a dream my A.D.D. won't let me catch.

[tkhayes 150]

no one is arguing that rocedures were not followed by the City - but that does not mean there will NOT be serious consequences for the town when they 'correct' that wrong.

We are now associated with White supremist groups, the mayor is receiving hate mail, the city is all over the nationals news (in a bad way). I do not actually believe anyone on council is actually a racist, but it DOES put us in that class whether we want to be or not.

This cannot be good for the City - and procedures be damned, this could have all been avoided by the keeping of the name. Instead of pissing off thousands of people all over the country, we would piss off just a few locals who want it changed back.

Now it cannot be undone. Even if council changed the name back tomorrow, the damage is done, the reputation scarred and the ramifications not even seen fully yet.


TK

[Ron 7]

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This cannot be good for the City - and procedures be damned, this could have all been avoided by the keeping of the name.

AND it could have been avoided in the first place by following the correct procedures...It's why there ARE procedures.

They also could have looked to see if the people who were asking for the name change even LIVED in the city (Most didn't)...Why should someone who does not live in the city have any say about any city buisness?

2nd it could have been handled by saying "We can't rename 6th to MLK, but we CAN name the next street, school, library ect to MLK.

Yes, the way they handled it was pretty stupid. However, I would back the 500 people who lived in the city that didn't want the name change any day over the 100 who didn't live in the city that wanted it....Its how democracy works.

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Instead of pissing off thousands of people all over the country, we would piss off just a few locals who want it changed back.

So in your opinion its more important to please people that will most likley never visit Zhills. Than make the people that live here happy?

Simple thing...

1. Procedures were not followed.

2. More people who LIVED in Zhills wanted to keep the name the same than the people that didn't live in Zhills wanted it named MLK.

3. It was put up for vote very sneaky the first time, and many people who voted for it lost elections over it. And the second time it was changed back by all but one vote.

The democratic process worked. Its not going to make everyone happy, but it did make the people directly involved happy.

I think its a pretty stupid issue, handled really badly by a group of morons, while trying to please a bunch of cry babies.

The simple fix was for the council to tell the 100 people "We will run through the procedues and if it passes we will change the name". If it didn't pass (And it's quite clear it would not have) then the council could name the next street MLK.

I don't care about the name of the damn street....I do care that a minority of non residents tried to bypass the rules and get what they want even in the face of clear cut opposition. And the fact the the city council was so spineless as to allow it to happen to try and appear PC rather than follow the rules.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[tkhayes 150]

I could probably come up with a democratic arguement and a business case (as a local resident) and find support (with a large petition) to fence in the black neighborhood to keep crime out of my neighborhood. Even if I won the support of a large majoritynad took it to City Council - that would be WRONG. It would also be RACIST

there are examples (thousands of them) where democracy does not fucking matter; there is the need instead to do the right thing.

2 days after 9/11, I could have gotten a petition signed to slaughter Arabs in the USA - that would be WRONG as well. Democracy is not always the right way no matter what or at any cost. What you are saying is the loudest voice wins. If the city really wants a true indication of the wants of its constituents, then it needs a vote or referendum, not a petition.

Anyway, i resent the fact that you say that 'morons' bypassed the system. No one in this case ever intentionally did anything to bypass anything. The law was obscure and the procedure as you put it was not obvious. It was discovered after the fact, not found and then skirted by evil-doers in the hopes of pulling the wool over anyone's eyes.

A mistake was made and identified, yes. Irene Dobson is a nice old lady, hardly the scoundrel you would have us believe that she is. The City Manager and the council (and the petitioners) were only trying to honor a great man - no ill-harm. My point is that more ill-harm will come of it now.

Typicaly American attitude you have there that assumes that the outside view of our city does not matter (see my earlier posts). So narrow minded. Try a world view of things instead.

There is no solution at this point, name tarnshed, reputation ruined, tourism probably damaged (hell we were on Leno the other night) and is that the 'best solution'? Democracy at any cost? I cannpot wait for democracy to turn against you someday and see how you feel? Or do you accept it blindly?

"Sometimes it is not enough to do your best - sometimes you have to do what is necessary" - Sir Winston Churchill

Fine you win - I surrender - democracy rules - I will make sure you are aware of the long term damage when it comes....
TK

[Ron 7]

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I could probably come up with a democratic arguement and a business case (as a local resident) and find support (with a large petition) to fence in the black neighborhood to keep crime out of my neighborhood. Even if I won the support of a large majoritynad took it to City Council - that would be WRONG. It would also be RACIST

Agreed

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there are examples (thousands of them) where democracy does not fucking matter; there is the need instead to do the right thing.

Disagree...That very socialism of you. Majority rules in a Democracy...right or wrong.

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2 days after 9/11, I could have gotten a petition signed to slaughter Arabs in the USA - that would be WRONG as well.

I doubt you could have gotten over 51% of the population to vote for it.

Democracy wins again.

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Democracy is not always the right way no matter what or at any cost

True, but it is the will of the majority of people...and Democracy is about letting the majority decide what happens...Not the few, just cause they want it.

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What you are saying is the loudest voice wins.

No, the most voices in unison win....However in this case the loadest voices did win. Last time I checked 6th still had MLK on it.

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If the city really wants a true indication of the wants of its constituents, then it needs a vote or referendum, not a petition.

True, but the same could be said against the first 100 name petition that started this mess. It should have been taken to at the very LEAST the people on the street that was going to be renamed....Just like the rules said.

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Anyway, i resent the fact that you say that 'morons' bypassed the system

I resent the fact that you paint anyone that opposed letting 100 peoples voices out weigh 500 as a racist.

for the record let me say my grief in English:
I resent the fact that someone outside of the city limits could get others outside the city limits and get a street name changed without asking the other people even on that street what they wanted...I feel that even if it is not the whole cities buisness what the street was named, it IS the buisness of the people who own property there.

I also resent the fact that after a majority wanted otherwise the minority threw the race card (now I will grant that for most it probably IS a race issue) but for me it is a simple majority rules issue.

I also resent the fact that you claim anyone that does not support the naming of the street as MLK as a racist.

And I resent the fact that you are claiming that the whole city is racist after an incorrectly done deed was put right according to the rules.

I also find it funny that you, who will tell "black jokes" at the bar, will be the first to call anyone a racist.

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A mistake was made and identified

And then fixed...But by fixing it you think everyone is a racist.

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Irene Dobson is a nice old lady, hardly the scoundrel you would have us believe that she is.

show me ONE place where I said anything about her other than:
1. She started a petition.
2. She does not live in the city limits.

How does those two things have me making her out to be a scoundrel?

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The City Manager and the council (and the petitioners) were only trying to honor a great man - no ill-harm.

Well the City Manager and the council could have done it it many ways...The way they chose to do it was illegal . And like I have said MANY times (But you seem to not want to read) That they could have fixed this problem by simply saying. "OK the NEXT street in Zhills that is made will be MLK." Done.

As for MLK being a great man...I'll give you his message was great....But he was far from a great man. He cheated on his wife, plagerized his thesis...But this really has NOTHING to do about him...It is about a wrong that was corrected.

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My point is that more ill-harm will come of it now.

Maybe...but the really great thing about a democracy..Is you get what you vote for. If bad things come from this issue...It will be what was asked for. It IS a shame that people like you can't see that it was illegal, and have to make this into a racist issue. (Like I have said...For some I am sure it is...But not for all)

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Typicaly American attitude you have there that assumes that the outside view of our city does not matter (see my earlier posts). So narrow minded. Try a world view of things instead.

And you have a typical view...We should do what you want us to do, not what the majority wants.

America was founded on each person having a vote...That can be both good and bad...But don't expect us to change it to make you happy...Its worked quite well so far..And if the system sucks so bad...Why are there so many people from other countries trying to come here?

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There is no solution at this point

I think the solution that happened was fine by me...I think the COUNCIL screwed it all up. Irene did nothing wrong in ASKING...The council screwed up by saying OK without checking to see if it was legal first, or even asking the people who it would effect their opinion.

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name tarnshed, reputation ruined,

I really doubt that....No one cared about Zhills before, they will forget and not care in a year or less. (Except the fanatics like you that keep bringing it up).

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tourism probably damaged (hell we were on Leno the other night)

Other than skydivers I really doubt people take vactions here to look at our springs, and cow fields.

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and is that the 'best solution'? Democracy at any cost?

Maybe not the "best" in every case, but the one that this country was founded on.

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"Sometimes it is not enough to do your best - sometimes you have to do what is necessary" - Sir Winston Churchill

In this case what was "best" was what was legal.

From the Declaration of Independance:

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We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal(one man, one vote), that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed(The government does as the MAJORITY wants). That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness(The council acted wrongly...And most were voted out). Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes(This one could go BOTH ways...Against the name being changed origanally, or against the uproar) ; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

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I cannpot wait for democracy to turn against you someday and see how you feel? Or do you accept it blindly?

Oh, its already happend...Yes I hated it. But so what? I acted like an adult and moved on.

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I will make sure you are aware of the long term damage when it comes....

Ok, but you know what? Its what the MAJORITY wanted....If I like the action or not the majority still wins.

Like I said before the council should have not jumped so quick to change the name...they should have checked to see if it was legal, then checked to see if the people who were directly affected cared. If it was not legal (Which it was not) or if the MAJORITY didn't want it (Which they didn't) Then the council could have just simply said "The next thing we do will be named MLK"....Done. Legal, simple, and fair.

But please do let me know the negative results from this...Local politics does interest me.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[tkhayes 150]

I NEVER called anyone a racist in any of my posts, I never said it in any of my speeches - but I most certainly pointed it out as what the rest the world would make us to be. That was my point.

TK

[ladyskydiver 0]

**Not directed at anyone in particular.**

You know what really fascinates me about all of this?

Martin Luther King Dr./Blvd/St. (etc...as these are all names that I have seen) as well as Black History Month. I am not racist - I don't pay attention to what a person's skin color is or their religion or sexual preference or.... I pay attention to how someone treats me and others.

Turn the MLK (Dr./Blvd./St.) and Black History Month into a White History Month or **insert white man's name here** Dr./Blvd./St. and talk about an uproar! Yesh!

Racism won't go away until people learn to look at how an individual acts and treats others instead of their skin color. There will always be a way to insult someone - using the color of their skin, their heritage, etc. as a way to get under their skin.

As far as ZHills suffering a lack of tourism, honestly, if it wasn't for the fact that Skydive City and Keith (JmpnKramer) are in ZHills, I would have never set foot in ZHills. There is nothing here except cows and blue hairs - more blue hairs during the winter. Not even good shops or a good coffee shop or...

Florida tourism for me would be the beaches, Orlando, Tampa - not ZHills. ZHills is country - pure and simple - not a tourist area.

Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

[Ron 7]

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I NEVER called anyone a racist in any of my posts, I never said it in any of my speeches - but I most certainly pointed it out as what the rest the world would make us to be. That was my point.

Well sorry...I guess I read it from your posts...Just like you thought I was making Irene out to be a scoundrel.

Like I said I would love to talk local politics with you.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[happythoughts 0]

I lived in Florida for over 35 years, within 100 miles of z-hills, and never knew it existed. I don't think that tourism will be affected in the slightest. There is no image to tarnish.

Since Jay Leno will continue to make jokes about the rural South, because it is the only demographic without a Political Correctness SWAT team. His opinion totally lacks value. He is a comedian and doesn't actually care about the truth.

However, it we worked this right, maybe we could start new toursim among white supremacist groups. More hotel business and I love a parade.

No one external to the city will remember this in 2 months. I don't actually care what they call the street.

[kallend 1,679]

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I lived in Florida for over 35 years, within 100 miles of z-hills, and never knew it existed. I don't think that tourism will be affected in the slightest. There is no image to tarnish.

Since Jay Leno will continue to make jokes about the rural South, because it is the only demographic without a Political Correctness SWAT team. His opinion totally lacks value. He is a comedian and doesn't actually care about the truth.

However, it we worked this right, maybe we could start new toursim among white supremacist groups. More hotel business and I love a parade.

No one external to the city will remember this in 2 months. I don't actually care what they call the street.

Quick - Buy stock in the local bedlinens store!

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[livendive 8]

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Majority rules in a Democracy...right or wrong.
...
True, but it is the will of the majority of people...and Democracy is about letting the majority decide what happens...Not the few, just cause they want it.
...
No, the most voices in unison win....However in this case the loadest voices did win.

Doesn't this sound an awful lot like the "mob rules" concept Republicans were railing against when Gore won the popular vote?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Ron 7]

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Doesn't this sound an awful lot like the "mob rules" concept Republicans were railing against when Gore won the popular vote?

All I know is that the law was followed in both cases.

Don't like the law? change it. That is the wonderful thing about Democracy...You don't like the Electoral process? Get enough people to want it changed, ask and see what happens.

As it stands now, but Bush's election, and the MLK street issue were both handled legally.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334