Shotgun 1 #26 April 21, 2004 That's the spirit! Thanks for letting us laugh at.... er, I mean, with you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dgskydive 0 #27 April 21, 2004 QuoteConsidering that this guy was probably in combat getting shot at (he's infantry), I say all the PC types should just have a cup of Shut the F*** Up. Ever heard of freedom of speech? I think it's funny as hell. Pay up? Send him to combat, then court martial him for having a sick sense of humor? Grow up. I have been in combat and I know that this guy is a support guy. The only combat he probably saw was on CNN or the aftermath. It isn't funny to most of the people that I know that served in the Military and it just makes all service men look bad. You are entitled to your opinion. But I take offense to your comment of Grow up. I am grown up and served my country for 9 years and have been in combat. Pictures like this help give the U.S. and all the service men and women over there a bad image. Right now their image is bad enough without shit like this adding fuel to the fire! Maybe you should grow up and think of the other soldiers over there that will be associated with this guy and his picture. If he didn't make that sign then the should go after the guy that photoshopped it. If he did, then he will be taken care of by the military and rightfully so. Plain and simple this isn't excepted in the Military and will never be. QuoteEver heard of freedom of speech He is in the Military and what he can and can't do are regulated to him by the UCMJ. It doesnot allow for things like this.Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chuckbrown 0 #28 April 22, 2004 I think your attitude is pretty indicative of what's wrong with the command echelons of the military today. Rather than letting a guy blow of steam in a highly stressful environment, the PC commanders in the military want to string him up if it wasn't photoshopped. I personally don't think he's giving our troops a bad name, nor do I think that anyone has any problems with our fighting forces per se. Sure they disagree with whether we should be over there, but nobody's calling the troops "baby killers." I'm grown up enough to know better than getting bent out of shape over a joke (even if it was in poor taste). If the UCMJ says court martial him, it can and probably will. But it's still pretty pathetic. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dgskydive 0 #29 April 22, 2004 Quote but nobody's calling the troops "baby killers." Have you been seeing the images tht have been coming out of there lately? I just watched a show the other night and all they showed for 5 minutes was small children and women that had been killed in the recent fighting in Fulluja (sp). We have no idea if these people where killed by us or by the Iraqi's, but you can bet that the Iraqi's will say it is us that have been killing them. Then you start seeing pictures like this one show up and idiots start believing that our soldiers are over there killing kids. I will admit that we have probably killed women and children over there. It happens in war. No way around it in a war like this, but it is not something that is done intentionally, and our services men and women need to realize that images like that will make it harder on them in the end. It just adds fuel to the fire. The average Iraqi out there doesn't know about Photoshop and even if they do, all it takes is a word from the favorite local Crazy religous leader to tell them that this is a true image and then they get all worked up and go kill some more Americans. If you think that images like this won't be used against our troops in a phsycological war then you are mistaken. This is about a lot more then just blowing of steam. In the end the reason they don't want stuff like this showing up comes down to not giving the enemy any more reason then they already have to get fired up. There are plenty of ways for a combat troop to blow off steam. You go out and lift weights (if your unit doesn't have any then you go make some). We used to organize wrestling matches to help get rid of stress. Volley ball games between platoons works real well also. The unit commander can set up a live fire drill and have them go out and shoot up some shit. I have said in another thread about this same picture. I have a sick sense of humor and can appreciate a good joke. I have done and said things that would shock most people out there. Hell, I do it on a daily basis. This is about more then that.Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,148 #30 April 22, 2004 Dom, you rock. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dgskydive 0 #31 April 22, 2004 At least I know if I am crazy, there are others out there like you that are crazy with me!Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rickjump1 0 #32 April 23, 2004 I once heard a battalion chaplain say "Kill a commie for Christ", and thought it was funny. Those were very insensitive times and it got worse. You are 100% right. This is a different deal.Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #33 April 23, 2004 QuoteConsidering that this guy was probably in combat getting shot at (he's infantry), I say all the PC types should just have a cup of Shut the F*** Up. Ever heard of freedom of speech? I think it's funny as hell. Pay up? Send him to combat, then court martial him for having a sick sense of humor? Grow up. Its not about growing up. It is about what is right. He is a guest in a foreign land, he represents you and me. That type of behavor is wrong and should not be tolerated. Like Dom said, this guy is not a grunt, he is support. You think its funny, I think is wrong. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chuckbrown 0 #34 April 23, 2004 Dom, First off, let me apologize for the "grow up" comment. It was wrong and has no place in these forums. Your comments are well thought out and have validity. While I don't agree with them, I do respect them. I understand your point completely that this picture does little to win "hearts and minds" and had it been an officer, I would probably agree with you. But I have a problem with enlisted men being dragged through the criminal justice system for sick jokes. As for it giving fuel to the enemy, most of our enemy can't read english, and they're already worked up by Al Jezeera's pictures of maimed babies. This isn't anywhere near the same thing. Since this wasn't on Al Jezeera I highly doubt it has any propoganda value whatsoever. Was this in poor taste? Yes. But should an EM go through the criminal justice process because of this? My opinion is no. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skyrad 0 #35 April 23, 2004 'Then you start seeing pictures like this one show up and idiots start believing that our soldiers are over there killing kids.' Can you really be sure that they aren't? Just because you wouldn't doesn't mean other wouldn't. Theres been a LOT of eye witness reports coming out of there that say they have been and quite a few of independent eye witnesses. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3653223.stm http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0%2C2763%2C1193729%2C00.htmlWhen an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,148 #36 April 23, 2004 I'd bet money that kind of thing has happened; I'd also bet money that it's considered unacceptable by the vast majority of soldiers. But scared and pissed off people with guns. especially 19-year-old ones, can sometimes think with the wrong head. Which is why Dom's point about this picture, if real, needing to be the source of discipline is important. The more times it can be emphasized to individual soldiers that no matter what your feelings, certain actions are simply unacceptable, the more people it might soak into. Every police department has officers who like the enforcement side a little too much; and every military unit probably has a few guys who think with their emotions and hormones. It's just better if they're aware that there are repercussions strong enough to remind them that it's best to think with both heads before acting. BTW -- the "wrong head" comment doesn't mean women aren't capable of equally stupid things. It's just such a great phrase Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dgskydive 0 #37 April 23, 2004 QuoteCan you really be sure that they aren't? Just because you wouldn't doesn't mean other wouldn't. Theres been a LOT of eye witness reports coming out of there that say they have been and quite a few of independent eye witnesses. I agree with what Wendy said. I will also say that I bet on more then one of those incidents there where insurgents around those vehicles firing at our troops. If an ambulance drives into the line of fire and takes three or 4 hits from one of our weapons hey that sucks but it is a part of war. If they where shot at intentionally, then that is a very serious problem. Same with the curches and schools and hospitals. As part of the rules of war, we do not attack those types of places...... unless they are being used against us. If the Iraqi's go into a school and start shooting up soldiers then it is open season on that school. I know that is not what anybody wants to happen (except the insurgants), but it is what would happen. Those soldiers have every right to protect themsleves in that situation. Even if that did happen it wouldn't be a long drawn out thing. It would be just enough to get out of the line of fire until something else could be worked out.Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skyrad 0 #38 April 23, 2004 'If the Iraqi's go into a school and start shooting up soldiers then it is open season on that school.' And what of the children in this hypothetical school? Do you you think that would be a proportionate response? Do you not think that maybe the adverse publicity of 'open season' on a school full of children may do far greater harm to the objective of rebuilding a nation than good? Remember its not possible to govern a country the size of Iraq without the goodwill of the population.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites leroydb 0 #39 April 23, 2004 QuoteHe is in the Military and what he can and can't do are regulated to him by the UCMJ. It doesnot allow for things like this. yup the military is subject to double jeopardyLeroy ..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rickjump1 0 #40 April 23, 2004 This is correct and that is why we have officers to prevent or stop these aggressive types. After being sniped at and watching friends being blown up, people get a little trigger happy. That is why there are officers and nco's to control the situation. Of course this is the way it is supposed to work.Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #41 April 23, 2004 Wendy, Very well put! But having been there, when the shit hits the fan the little head is real little. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dgskydive 0 #42 April 27, 2004 QuoteAnd what of the children in this hypothetical school? Do you you think that would be a proportionate response? Do you not think that maybe the adverse publicity of 'open season' on a school full of children may do far greater harm to the objective of rebuilding a nation than good? Remember its not possible to govern a country the size of Iraq without the goodwill of the population. Your are right. It would be awful if that where to happen!!!! A down right horrible situation! That being said...... in a situation like that, the shooting would have stopped as soon as our troops could get themselves out of harms way. But if they are taking fire from that school and soldiers are going down, they have every right to defend themselves and they will. Saying open season on the school may have been a bit harsh on my part.Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dgskydive 0 #43 April 27, 2004 Quote Wendy, Very well put! But having been there, when the shit hits the fan the little head is real little LOL! That about sums it up!Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dgskydive 0 #44 April 27, 2004 Quoteyup the military is subject to double jeopardy You ain't kidding. It really sucks that way. I had a few friends that got DUI's while in the Military and you get it from the civilian police and then you get it again from the Military. It's like standing there and having someone slap you with both hands at the same time! WHAP!!!!!!Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dgskydive 0 #45 April 27, 2004 QuoteFirst off, let me apologize for the "grow up" comment. It was wrong and has no place in these forums. No worries Chuck. We are all entitled to our opinion. Sorry it took so long for me to reply to you on this subject.Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kiltboy 0 #46 April 29, 2004 I found this on the web and I hope it will clear things up about this guy. Some of them are very funny. http://www.ryano.net/iraq/ David Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 2 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
dgskydive 0 #27 April 21, 2004 QuoteConsidering that this guy was probably in combat getting shot at (he's infantry), I say all the PC types should just have a cup of Shut the F*** Up. Ever heard of freedom of speech? I think it's funny as hell. Pay up? Send him to combat, then court martial him for having a sick sense of humor? Grow up. I have been in combat and I know that this guy is a support guy. The only combat he probably saw was on CNN or the aftermath. It isn't funny to most of the people that I know that served in the Military and it just makes all service men look bad. You are entitled to your opinion. But I take offense to your comment of Grow up. I am grown up and served my country for 9 years and have been in combat. Pictures like this help give the U.S. and all the service men and women over there a bad image. Right now their image is bad enough without shit like this adding fuel to the fire! Maybe you should grow up and think of the other soldiers over there that will be associated with this guy and his picture. If he didn't make that sign then the should go after the guy that photoshopped it. If he did, then he will be taken care of by the military and rightfully so. Plain and simple this isn't excepted in the Military and will never be. QuoteEver heard of freedom of speech He is in the Military and what he can and can't do are regulated to him by the UCMJ. It doesnot allow for things like this.Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckbrown 0 #28 April 22, 2004 I think your attitude is pretty indicative of what's wrong with the command echelons of the military today. Rather than letting a guy blow of steam in a highly stressful environment, the PC commanders in the military want to string him up if it wasn't photoshopped. I personally don't think he's giving our troops a bad name, nor do I think that anyone has any problems with our fighting forces per se. Sure they disagree with whether we should be over there, but nobody's calling the troops "baby killers." I'm grown up enough to know better than getting bent out of shape over a joke (even if it was in poor taste). If the UCMJ says court martial him, it can and probably will. But it's still pretty pathetic. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgskydive 0 #29 April 22, 2004 Quote but nobody's calling the troops "baby killers." Have you been seeing the images tht have been coming out of there lately? I just watched a show the other night and all they showed for 5 minutes was small children and women that had been killed in the recent fighting in Fulluja (sp). We have no idea if these people where killed by us or by the Iraqi's, but you can bet that the Iraqi's will say it is us that have been killing them. Then you start seeing pictures like this one show up and idiots start believing that our soldiers are over there killing kids. I will admit that we have probably killed women and children over there. It happens in war. No way around it in a war like this, but it is not something that is done intentionally, and our services men and women need to realize that images like that will make it harder on them in the end. It just adds fuel to the fire. The average Iraqi out there doesn't know about Photoshop and even if they do, all it takes is a word from the favorite local Crazy religous leader to tell them that this is a true image and then they get all worked up and go kill some more Americans. If you think that images like this won't be used against our troops in a phsycological war then you are mistaken. This is about a lot more then just blowing of steam. In the end the reason they don't want stuff like this showing up comes down to not giving the enemy any more reason then they already have to get fired up. There are plenty of ways for a combat troop to blow off steam. You go out and lift weights (if your unit doesn't have any then you go make some). We used to organize wrestling matches to help get rid of stress. Volley ball games between platoons works real well also. The unit commander can set up a live fire drill and have them go out and shoot up some shit. I have said in another thread about this same picture. I have a sick sense of humor and can appreciate a good joke. I have done and said things that would shock most people out there. Hell, I do it on a daily basis. This is about more then that.Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,148 #30 April 22, 2004 Dom, you rock. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgskydive 0 #31 April 22, 2004 At least I know if I am crazy, there are others out there like you that are crazy with me!Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rickjump1 0 #32 April 23, 2004 I once heard a battalion chaplain say "Kill a commie for Christ", and thought it was funny. Those were very insensitive times and it got worse. You are 100% right. This is a different deal.Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #33 April 23, 2004 QuoteConsidering that this guy was probably in combat getting shot at (he's infantry), I say all the PC types should just have a cup of Shut the F*** Up. Ever heard of freedom of speech? I think it's funny as hell. Pay up? Send him to combat, then court martial him for having a sick sense of humor? Grow up. Its not about growing up. It is about what is right. He is a guest in a foreign land, he represents you and me. That type of behavor is wrong and should not be tolerated. Like Dom said, this guy is not a grunt, he is support. You think its funny, I think is wrong. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckbrown 0 #34 April 23, 2004 Dom, First off, let me apologize for the "grow up" comment. It was wrong and has no place in these forums. Your comments are well thought out and have validity. While I don't agree with them, I do respect them. I understand your point completely that this picture does little to win "hearts and minds" and had it been an officer, I would probably agree with you. But I have a problem with enlisted men being dragged through the criminal justice system for sick jokes. As for it giving fuel to the enemy, most of our enemy can't read english, and they're already worked up by Al Jezeera's pictures of maimed babies. This isn't anywhere near the same thing. Since this wasn't on Al Jezeera I highly doubt it has any propoganda value whatsoever. Was this in poor taste? Yes. But should an EM go through the criminal justice process because of this? My opinion is no. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #35 April 23, 2004 'Then you start seeing pictures like this one show up and idiots start believing that our soldiers are over there killing kids.' Can you really be sure that they aren't? Just because you wouldn't doesn't mean other wouldn't. Theres been a LOT of eye witness reports coming out of there that say they have been and quite a few of independent eye witnesses. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3653223.stm http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0%2C2763%2C1193729%2C00.htmlWhen an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,148 #36 April 23, 2004 I'd bet money that kind of thing has happened; I'd also bet money that it's considered unacceptable by the vast majority of soldiers. But scared and pissed off people with guns. especially 19-year-old ones, can sometimes think with the wrong head. Which is why Dom's point about this picture, if real, needing to be the source of discipline is important. The more times it can be emphasized to individual soldiers that no matter what your feelings, certain actions are simply unacceptable, the more people it might soak into. Every police department has officers who like the enforcement side a little too much; and every military unit probably has a few guys who think with their emotions and hormones. It's just better if they're aware that there are repercussions strong enough to remind them that it's best to think with both heads before acting. BTW -- the "wrong head" comment doesn't mean women aren't capable of equally stupid things. It's just such a great phrase Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgskydive 0 #37 April 23, 2004 QuoteCan you really be sure that they aren't? Just because you wouldn't doesn't mean other wouldn't. Theres been a LOT of eye witness reports coming out of there that say they have been and quite a few of independent eye witnesses. I agree with what Wendy said. I will also say that I bet on more then one of those incidents there where insurgents around those vehicles firing at our troops. If an ambulance drives into the line of fire and takes three or 4 hits from one of our weapons hey that sucks but it is a part of war. If they where shot at intentionally, then that is a very serious problem. Same with the curches and schools and hospitals. As part of the rules of war, we do not attack those types of places...... unless they are being used against us. If the Iraqi's go into a school and start shooting up soldiers then it is open season on that school. I know that is not what anybody wants to happen (except the insurgants), but it is what would happen. Those soldiers have every right to protect themsleves in that situation. Even if that did happen it wouldn't be a long drawn out thing. It would be just enough to get out of the line of fire until something else could be worked out.Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #38 April 23, 2004 'If the Iraqi's go into a school and start shooting up soldiers then it is open season on that school.' And what of the children in this hypothetical school? Do you you think that would be a proportionate response? Do you not think that maybe the adverse publicity of 'open season' on a school full of children may do far greater harm to the objective of rebuilding a nation than good? Remember its not possible to govern a country the size of Iraq without the goodwill of the population.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leroydb 0 #39 April 23, 2004 QuoteHe is in the Military and what he can and can't do are regulated to him by the UCMJ. It doesnot allow for things like this. yup the military is subject to double jeopardyLeroy ..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rickjump1 0 #40 April 23, 2004 This is correct and that is why we have officers to prevent or stop these aggressive types. After being sniped at and watching friends being blown up, people get a little trigger happy. That is why there are officers and nco's to control the situation. Of course this is the way it is supposed to work.Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #41 April 23, 2004 Wendy, Very well put! But having been there, when the shit hits the fan the little head is real little. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgskydive 0 #42 April 27, 2004 QuoteAnd what of the children in this hypothetical school? Do you you think that would be a proportionate response? Do you not think that maybe the adverse publicity of 'open season' on a school full of children may do far greater harm to the objective of rebuilding a nation than good? Remember its not possible to govern a country the size of Iraq without the goodwill of the population. Your are right. It would be awful if that where to happen!!!! A down right horrible situation! That being said...... in a situation like that, the shooting would have stopped as soon as our troops could get themselves out of harms way. But if they are taking fire from that school and soldiers are going down, they have every right to defend themselves and they will. Saying open season on the school may have been a bit harsh on my part.Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgskydive 0 #43 April 27, 2004 Quote Wendy, Very well put! But having been there, when the shit hits the fan the little head is real little LOL! That about sums it up!Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgskydive 0 #44 April 27, 2004 Quoteyup the military is subject to double jeopardy You ain't kidding. It really sucks that way. I had a few friends that got DUI's while in the Military and you get it from the civilian police and then you get it again from the Military. It's like standing there and having someone slap you with both hands at the same time! WHAP!!!!!!Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgskydive 0 #45 April 27, 2004 QuoteFirst off, let me apologize for the "grow up" comment. It was wrong and has no place in these forums. No worries Chuck. We are all entitled to our opinion. Sorry it took so long for me to reply to you on this subject.Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kiltboy 0 #46 April 29, 2004 I found this on the web and I hope it will clear things up about this guy. Some of them are very funny. http://www.ryano.net/iraq/ David Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
