lawrocket 3 #26 April 8, 2004 QuoteIs Jan to be criticized for choosing a different line than you choose? No. She was criticized for her suggestion that anyone who has a different line than her is wrong and, to paraphrase, peddling smut. Michele and Jen and the flyangel all accept that she has drawn a different line. No sweat. The issue is that Jan is most certainly NOT OKAY with the lines others have drawn. To us, that crosses an entirely different line and is more proselytizing than mere disagreement on lines. That's why on my post I indicated that you did it right by stating objectively your subjective opinion while not impugning the morals of other with whom you disagreed. We know where you stand, but you did not berate others who viewed it differently. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gmanpilot 0 #27 April 8, 2004 QuoteWell, I'd bet that charging for a quickie would raise more money than you'll ever make selling artwork. No, you are most decidedly wrong, and I give the target market for the calendar (the skydiving community) more credit than that. I would not pay for a quicky from anyone, let alone from any of my beautiful skydiving female friends. I can assure you however, that I would be happy to make a donation to JFTC.......with or without the calendar. Your quickie comparison is jacked up!_________________________________________ -There's always free cheese in a mouse trap. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #28 April 8, 2004 QuoteIs Jan to be criticized for choosing a different line than you choose? My line is way different from Jan's but I am disapointed with how people in this thread are handling their disagreement with another human being. Jan: Keep standing up for what you believe in, even if no one else does. Everyone: We can all disagree and still play together. Get used to the idea.....---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VanillaSkyGirl 6 #29 April 8, 2004 QuoteQuoteWell, I'd bet that charging for a quickie would raise more money than you'll ever make selling artwork. LMAO! Hey, if thats what Jan wants to do - more power to her. Just don't expect us to watch I believe that both parties involved are degrading each other with comment like this. I think that the intentions of this calendar were on the up and up. I hope that the calendar will be tasteful and artistic pictures of females skydiving or representing the female skydiving community. I am completely in support of women showing that strength and beauty can go hand in hand. I do think that the pictures should definitely be skydiving related... You know, one of these sky photographers is to be spending a lot of time with me soon. He even asked me what my views of this project were before he agreed to it, telling me that it it bothered me...he would not do it. I am in support of this calendar and supportive of those who are to be a part of it. I also completely have much respect for Jan Meyer (Makeithappen), and what she has achieved in the sport. I support her right to have differing points of views regarding this calendar. I do not think, however, that either party should resort to posting negatively about each other. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,651 #30 April 8, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteWell put, Jen. Kallend, you're welcome to not purchase it and to support the JFTC however you choose... QuoteNice evasion. John, I don't think Michele's answer was out of line. She was being polite, but somehow you want to stir the pot even more. Please, I have met you, and believe it or not, I think you are a nice man. The way you post here, to stir the pot is nothing like the man I have met in person. QuoteAt what point does something that will raise money become so offensive that you would not consider it? Is there a limit? Where do you draw the line? Yes, there is a limit to what we are doing with this calendar, and if you took the time to read what Michele had posted first in the Women's Forum, you might find your answer. QuoteIs Jan to be criticized for choosing a different line than you choose? Again, look back and re-read anything we (Jen, Michele, or I) posted. I don't think we ever where disrespectful to Jan and what she was saying. John, stop stirring the pot by putting words into other people's mouths. I'm not trying to stir any pots. My question is legitimate. At what point does something to raise money for a good cause become unacceptable to people? Is a boobie-beer cooler OK? A topless girlie calendar? A sponsored naked jump? A bikini jump (we SDC guys threatened that at a charity fundraiser and got people to pay us NOT to do it). Jello shots without a license? Where do people draw the line? PS I sponsored participants at each of the two JFTC events so far.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,435 #31 April 8, 2004 >At what point does something to raise money for a good cause > become unacceptable to people? Depends on the person. $1 jello shots are OK to most skydivers, for example, but some may be offended by the whole liquor-license thing. That's not a big problem; a good solution would be for you to not buy any jello shots if that bugs you. The calendar as proposed would be acceptable to 99% of the skydivers I know (Mary and I have talked about what it would entail.) It's OK with me, and my wife is OK with it as well, which is significant since she'll probably be in it. If it's not OK with other people, a good solution would be to not buy one. >Where do people draw the line? Each person draws the line at a different place. The only people who have to be OK with the calendar are the organizers of the jump (since their names will be associated with it) the women in the calendar and the photographers. Hopefully other people will be OK with it as well; if not, well, there are other charities they can contribute to. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MakeItHappen 15 #32 April 8, 2004 QuoteI'm going to ask one of the mods to remove these post. This thread could get very ugly, very quickly. I suggest that you re-read what I posted. I suggest that you take into consideration that I have been on ALL of the JFTC jumps. I suggest that you take into consideration that I turned down a plane captain slot on the first JFTC. I suggest that you take into consideration that I was a plane captain on the last JFTC. I suggest that you realize that I do not see 'eye-to-eye' with the JFTC organizers with every aspect of the event. I will re-emphasize that the differences have been expressed directly to the organizers. I will add for those that may not know, that I do contract work for Square1. It's important to realize that jeopardizing one's income for values and integrity over-reaches petty slander. I have never been accused of 'not expressing my opinion' - even if it is a minority view. I think that JFTC is a wonderful event that has been embraced by most jumpers. It does have blemishes, so to speak. I choose to correct those blemishes. I could not or was not effective before. An excerpt from an email to Mary: 'I posted that tiny bit so that maybe, just maybe, you will ditch the T&A aspect and go for REAL skydiving photos.' That is and was my motivation. I do not want to see JFTC become a T&A exhibition, even if that's what the media likes. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #33 April 9, 2004 QuoteI choose to correct those blemishes. I could not or was not effective before. Jan, This calendar project was not yours to try and correct. Before you throw mud at something, give it a chance. You are the only one suggesting that there will be any T&A. Your uninformed bashing was uncalled for.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Deuce 1 #34 April 9, 2004 QuoteI suggest that you take into consideration that I have been on ALL of the JFTC jumps. I suggest that you take into consideration that I turned down a plane captain slot on the first JFTC. I suggest that you take into consideration that I was a plane captain on the last JFTC. I will add for those that may not know, that I do contract work for Square1. I bow down before you, oracle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lawrocket 3 #35 April 9, 2004 QuoteAn excerpt from an email to Mary: 'I posted that tiny bit so that maybe, just maybe, you will ditch the T&A aspect and go for REAL skydiving photos.' That is and was my motivation. I do not want to see JFTC become a T&A exhibition, even if that's what the media likes. If that's what you would have said the first time, then we wouldn't have had this explosion. You expressed your subjective thoughts in a clear, concise and objective manner while not impugning the motivations, ethics or morals of any of the calendar organizers or anyone else. From that point comes a rational discussion that can lead to fresh thoughts. In fact, it gives those pause to think about what can be done to prevent the T & A Exhibition. Thus, a desired effect. Your point was lost in diatribe. I hope that this can be refocused to your point of contention. And that is all it is - one point. Had you kept it to that point, this never would have gotten ugly. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Michele 1 #36 April 9, 2004 QuoteI posted that tiny bit so that maybe, just maybe, you will ditch the T&A aspect and go for REAL skydiving photos.' That is and was my motivation. I do not want to see JFTC become a T&A exhibition, even if that's what the media likes. You were invited to participate in the project because you had jumped on JFTC (as all JFTC ladies were.). You declined. That's fine. There is no problem with that. No one will look down on you for not participating, especially as you have such strong personal feelings against what you are (mis)catagorizing as "T&A". As for "real skydiving photos", you did not ask - and have yet TO ask - what sort of photography will be included. Fortunately, the Calendar Girls gang have some semblence of decorum. Not to mention the top notch photographers who would not've been willing to participate if it went against their moral positions; and not to mention the several dozen models who've been asking for shoots near them. I respect your opinion as what runs your life. You're welcome to it. I disagree, but that's because I a) know what's going on, and b) know what will be acceptable and not. I firmly believe that this calendar will generate a lot of money for the girls, and also for JFTC. I've spent easily 80 hours (as have the other women on the planning committee) just in the last 2 months, and anticipate spending about 1200 more hours on this project before it's through. We will not be receiving any remuneration on a personal level. What we will receive is the satisfaction of knowing that a project as intense as this is will benefit women, far and wide, jumpers and non-jumpers alike. My admiration and appreciation goes to everyone who has answered affirmatively to the invitation to contribute. Should there be those who do not wish to contribute in this way, my opinion of them will not change because of that. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MakeItHappen 15 #37 April 9, 2004 Quote ..girls,... Oh yeah, I forgot to mention do not call grown women 'girls'. Do not take this personally, I tell everyone this. Same with 'chick'. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Michele 1 #38 April 9, 2004 QuoteOh yeah, I forgot to mention do not call grown women 'girls'. Do not take this personally, I tell everyone this. Same with 'chick'. What about Babe? Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChasingBlueSky 0 #39 April 9, 2004 QuoteWe also need to keep in mind that this sport is something like 75% men, and raising money is difficult with that kind of ratio - so we need to make it appealing to them, as well as something grandma can put up in the church office. I'm not sure I understand that. Guys don't donate to charity??? Or is it they won't donate to breast cancer research? I've witnessed countless fundraisers run by skydivers that have generated plenty of cash, and I have personally been involved in two for Make-A-Wish that has met its goal two years in a row, and we are doing it again this year. We have several JFTC ladies at SDC, and there has been plenty of donations from the guys to help them out. They just went around and asked - we donated (and some jello shots were sold on anothe occasion)._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #40 April 9, 2004 QuoteQuote ..girls,... Oh yeah, I forgot to mention do not call grown women 'girls'. Do not take this personally, I tell everyone this. Same with 'chick'. . You need to loosen up on your "My way is the only right way" attitude. How do you justify telling anyone what to call "grown women". Some call them mother and other call them Honey as in wife. Do you feel they should check with you first. You have every right to your opinion on any subject out there, but you have no right to jump on someone who's opinion happens to be different then yours.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Nightingale 0 #41 April 9, 2004 Kallend- People draw the line where they feel comfortable drawing it, within the bounds of the law. People are welcome to donate or not donate at their will. Nobody is forcing women to be in the calendar. Nobody's forcing anyone to buy it. I, for one, will be buying copies for my whole family, including my 82 year old Catholic grandmother. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,651 #42 April 9, 2004 QuoteKallend- People draw the line where they feel comfortable drawing it, within the bounds of the law. People are welcome to donate or not donate at their will. Nobody is forcing women to be in the calendar. Nobody's forcing anyone to buy it. I, for one, will be buying copies for my whole family, including my 82 year old Catholic grandmother. My question was not "Where do people draw the line", nor was it "Is the line in the right place for your Catholic granny?" it was "At what point does something that will raise money become so offensive that you would not consider it?" Like YOU, the second person singular. So far, no one has answered.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites livendive 8 #43 April 9, 2004 QuoteQuote ..girls,... Oh yeah, I forgot to mention do not call grown women 'girls'. Do not take this personally, I tell everyone this. Same with 'chick'. . LOL! Jan, quit being such a girl! Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Deuce 1 #44 April 9, 2004 Quoteit was "At what point does something that will raise money become so offensive that you would not consider it?" Like YOU, the second person singular. I'll bite. I always liked that description of obscenity the SC came up with that said that "offensiveness" was defined by the local community. So, what would be cool and neat in my camera locker at the DZ is going to be different than what would be cool and neat in my daughter's 2nd grade Catholic school classroom. Likewise, I call my wife, daughters, and women friends all kinds of affectionate nicknames that some women find offensive. I think the contentiousness of this thread is due to the tone set by one poster as to what "can and cannot" be done. "Do not call women 'girl'". I laughed out loud at that one. Keep trying to tell me what to do. Keep trying to tell me what is right and wrong. I scoff at thee. The angry, defensive, humorless people are invited to not attend the party. What is offensive is their constant lobbying that parties should be disallowed for the folks that enjoy them. Reminds me of the Counties that don't allow dancing. Counties where the people who make the rules never got invited to a dance. Anyway, Kallend, my definition of offensive would be a picture so overtly sexual in nature that it would require and explanation to my children, who are female human 7 year olds. Something along the line of "Dad, why is that lady licking her own nipple?" A question like, "Hey Dad, how come all those ladies on the back of the big plane have their bras showing?" would require a truthful response of "Cause it was fun". I suppose a government agency should take my daughters from me because I am sowing the seeds that will blossom with them being featured as harlots on "Girls Gone Wild". Then again, maybe there's more to them than bras and panties. I'll keep my house full of love and laughter over one where I can't call my daughters "baby". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,435 #45 April 9, 2004 >'I posted that tiny bit so that maybe, just maybe, you will ditch the > T&A aspect and go for REAL skydiving photos.' I guess I'm too much of a feminist to think that telling women what they can and can't do (or should and shouldn't do) is a good thing. Being a feminist means that you believe that women can do whatever they want to, even when society, their partners, or a BOD member tells them they can't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Keith 0 #46 April 9, 2004 I've watched this thread and was going to keep my mouth shut because I think this whole T&A stance is prudish and unworthy of comment. However, Jan, I think you should start a memorial fund for what ever crawled up your ass and died, then, you can decide what fundraising techniques are acceptable. Sheesh, we're not talking Penthouse shots here. Leave these women alone to raise money how their morals allow. I for one plan on buying a calendar.Keith Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflybella 0 #47 April 9, 2004 I have also kept quiet on this one - but have to say that bashing Jan's perspective is no better than what most of you are accusing her of doing. I despise the mob mentality, or whatever it is, that allows poeple to just jump on someone with a different viewpoint. Especially if they aren't expressing it the way YOU would. And am disgusted that a man would use words like 'prudish' in responding a woman's issue of respect. I think it speaks to Jan's point. As a female skydiver, I deal with preconceived ideas about what I'm really at the DZ for - how good I am on jumps - willingness to flash my tits for alititude - among many other things. I work hard to be a good skydiver as a woman in a mostly male sport. Breast cancer is a WOMAN'S issue. It makes sense that women would get together to support that. But it's also a public issue - and gets publicity. For those participating in the jumps who believe that this calendar idea sets them back in their efforts to not be looked at primarily for their outward physical characteristics - and in effect, discounts what they work for daily on the dz - they have a right to speak up. They are, not by choice, being represented by this calendar. If I were doing the JFTC jumps - and I'm not - I would prefer that I not be represented to the skydiving community as a pretty picture. I sincerely applaud the efforts and enthusiasm of everyone coming together for this issue. I personally would prefer that women find other ways to promote ourselves besides the tired, old "look at me" ways. **This is not a bash of the calendar idea or of those who think it's a good idea. If I had the ability to stop you from doing it I wouldn't. I would just ask that all the women on the JFTC jumps be fairly represented and heard. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Keith 0 #48 April 9, 2004 Be disgusted all you want. Prudish is prudish. QuoteBreast cancer is a WOMAN'S issue. You need to do some research. MEN get breast cancer too. QuoteFor those participating in the jumps who believe that this calendar idea sets them back in their efforts to not be looked at primarily for their outward physical characteristics - Yeah, yeah, I know. "I am woman hear me roar.". My point is you're preaching to the choir. I don't think you'll find a group of men more aware that women are more than the sum of their body parts than skydivers. Judging from your post, you wouldn't happen to be a separatist would you?Keith Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lawrocket 3 #49 April 9, 2004 First off, MEN get breast cancer, as well. You could ask Rod Roddy (the announcer) if he did not die of it. Next, the bashing of Jan is not a bashing of her perspective. Everyone seems to believe that she has a right to that perspective. The issue is that she seeks to tell women (and men) what is appropriate and what is not appropriate. I have an issue with ANYONE proselytizing to people on things like this. It is anathema to empowerment of women to tell them that they are not doing women any favors. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Michele 1 #50 April 9, 2004 Hi, Bella! QuoteFor those participating in the jumps who believe that this calendar idea sets them back in their efforts to not be looked at primarily for their outward physical characteristics - From the original post.... QuoteNo, we're not revisiting Janet Jackson's half time show. As a matter of fact, we are looking to do this in such a way that Grandma would be proud to have the calendar hanging in her office at the church. Sure, lots of skin, cleavage, muted tones, black and white maybe, but no "money" shots...it's about the different sides of our skysisters, their ability to put together an amazing skydiving event, as well as be sensual, gentle, beautiful, erotic women. It's not about supermodels, it's about women - their beauty, their strength, their courage. It's about their smiles, their laughter, their hearts. And in some cases, it's about surviving the very illness which JFTC supports - breast cancer. I would urge all those who anticipate being offended by the calendar to wait until it comes out. If at that time you are offended, by all means speak your piece. In the interim, if some choose to participate, and others don't, that's just fine by us. We have at least a dozen women confirmed for the Perris shoot (and several who are tentative), with many more asking for locations near them where they can go. This has been very well received, from both men and women, and we anticipate that this will be an excellent fundraiser to assist those who want to contribute to JFTC. Thanks for all the discussion! Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next Page 2 of 6 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. 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billvon 2,435 #31 April 8, 2004 >At what point does something to raise money for a good cause > become unacceptable to people? Depends on the person. $1 jello shots are OK to most skydivers, for example, but some may be offended by the whole liquor-license thing. That's not a big problem; a good solution would be for you to not buy any jello shots if that bugs you. The calendar as proposed would be acceptable to 99% of the skydivers I know (Mary and I have talked about what it would entail.) It's OK with me, and my wife is OK with it as well, which is significant since she'll probably be in it. If it's not OK with other people, a good solution would be to not buy one. >Where do people draw the line? Each person draws the line at a different place. The only people who have to be OK with the calendar are the organizers of the jump (since their names will be associated with it) the women in the calendar and the photographers. Hopefully other people will be OK with it as well; if not, well, there are other charities they can contribute to. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #32 April 8, 2004 QuoteI'm going to ask one of the mods to remove these post. This thread could get very ugly, very quickly. I suggest that you re-read what I posted. I suggest that you take into consideration that I have been on ALL of the JFTC jumps. I suggest that you take into consideration that I turned down a plane captain slot on the first JFTC. I suggest that you take into consideration that I was a plane captain on the last JFTC. I suggest that you realize that I do not see 'eye-to-eye' with the JFTC organizers with every aspect of the event. I will re-emphasize that the differences have been expressed directly to the organizers. I will add for those that may not know, that I do contract work for Square1. It's important to realize that jeopardizing one's income for values and integrity over-reaches petty slander. I have never been accused of 'not expressing my opinion' - even if it is a minority view. I think that JFTC is a wonderful event that has been embraced by most jumpers. It does have blemishes, so to speak. I choose to correct those blemishes. I could not or was not effective before. An excerpt from an email to Mary: 'I posted that tiny bit so that maybe, just maybe, you will ditch the T&A aspect and go for REAL skydiving photos.' That is and was my motivation. I do not want to see JFTC become a T&A exhibition, even if that's what the media likes. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #33 April 9, 2004 QuoteI choose to correct those blemishes. I could not or was not effective before. Jan, This calendar project was not yours to try and correct. Before you throw mud at something, give it a chance. You are the only one suggesting that there will be any T&A. Your uninformed bashing was uncalled for.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #34 April 9, 2004 QuoteI suggest that you take into consideration that I have been on ALL of the JFTC jumps. I suggest that you take into consideration that I turned down a plane captain slot on the first JFTC. I suggest that you take into consideration that I was a plane captain on the last JFTC. I will add for those that may not know, that I do contract work for Square1. I bow down before you, oracle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #35 April 9, 2004 QuoteAn excerpt from an email to Mary: 'I posted that tiny bit so that maybe, just maybe, you will ditch the T&A aspect and go for REAL skydiving photos.' That is and was my motivation. I do not want to see JFTC become a T&A exhibition, even if that's what the media likes. If that's what you would have said the first time, then we wouldn't have had this explosion. You expressed your subjective thoughts in a clear, concise and objective manner while not impugning the motivations, ethics or morals of any of the calendar organizers or anyone else. From that point comes a rational discussion that can lead to fresh thoughts. In fact, it gives those pause to think about what can be done to prevent the T & A Exhibition. Thus, a desired effect. Your point was lost in diatribe. I hope that this can be refocused to your point of contention. And that is all it is - one point. Had you kept it to that point, this never would have gotten ugly. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #36 April 9, 2004 QuoteI posted that tiny bit so that maybe, just maybe, you will ditch the T&A aspect and go for REAL skydiving photos.' That is and was my motivation. I do not want to see JFTC become a T&A exhibition, even if that's what the media likes. You were invited to participate in the project because you had jumped on JFTC (as all JFTC ladies were.). You declined. That's fine. There is no problem with that. No one will look down on you for not participating, especially as you have such strong personal feelings against what you are (mis)catagorizing as "T&A". As for "real skydiving photos", you did not ask - and have yet TO ask - what sort of photography will be included. Fortunately, the Calendar Girls gang have some semblence of decorum. Not to mention the top notch photographers who would not've been willing to participate if it went against their moral positions; and not to mention the several dozen models who've been asking for shoots near them. I respect your opinion as what runs your life. You're welcome to it. I disagree, but that's because I a) know what's going on, and b) know what will be acceptable and not. I firmly believe that this calendar will generate a lot of money for the girls, and also for JFTC. I've spent easily 80 hours (as have the other women on the planning committee) just in the last 2 months, and anticipate spending about 1200 more hours on this project before it's through. We will not be receiving any remuneration on a personal level. What we will receive is the satisfaction of knowing that a project as intense as this is will benefit women, far and wide, jumpers and non-jumpers alike. My admiration and appreciation goes to everyone who has answered affirmatively to the invitation to contribute. Should there be those who do not wish to contribute in this way, my opinion of them will not change because of that. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #37 April 9, 2004 Quote ..girls,... Oh yeah, I forgot to mention do not call grown women 'girls'. Do not take this personally, I tell everyone this. Same with 'chick'. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #38 April 9, 2004 QuoteOh yeah, I forgot to mention do not call grown women 'girls'. Do not take this personally, I tell everyone this. Same with 'chick'. What about Babe? Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #39 April 9, 2004 QuoteWe also need to keep in mind that this sport is something like 75% men, and raising money is difficult with that kind of ratio - so we need to make it appealing to them, as well as something grandma can put up in the church office. I'm not sure I understand that. Guys don't donate to charity??? Or is it they won't donate to breast cancer research? I've witnessed countless fundraisers run by skydivers that have generated plenty of cash, and I have personally been involved in two for Make-A-Wish that has met its goal two years in a row, and we are doing it again this year. We have several JFTC ladies at SDC, and there has been plenty of donations from the guys to help them out. They just went around and asked - we donated (and some jello shots were sold on anothe occasion)._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #40 April 9, 2004 QuoteQuote ..girls,... Oh yeah, I forgot to mention do not call grown women 'girls'. Do not take this personally, I tell everyone this. Same with 'chick'. . You need to loosen up on your "My way is the only right way" attitude. How do you justify telling anyone what to call "grown women". Some call them mother and other call them Honey as in wife. Do you feel they should check with you first. You have every right to your opinion on any subject out there, but you have no right to jump on someone who's opinion happens to be different then yours.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #41 April 9, 2004 Kallend- People draw the line where they feel comfortable drawing it, within the bounds of the law. People are welcome to donate or not donate at their will. Nobody is forcing women to be in the calendar. Nobody's forcing anyone to buy it. I, for one, will be buying copies for my whole family, including my 82 year old Catholic grandmother. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,651 #42 April 9, 2004 QuoteKallend- People draw the line where they feel comfortable drawing it, within the bounds of the law. People are welcome to donate or not donate at their will. Nobody is forcing women to be in the calendar. Nobody's forcing anyone to buy it. I, for one, will be buying copies for my whole family, including my 82 year old Catholic grandmother. My question was not "Where do people draw the line", nor was it "Is the line in the right place for your Catholic granny?" it was "At what point does something that will raise money become so offensive that you would not consider it?" Like YOU, the second person singular. So far, no one has answered.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #43 April 9, 2004 QuoteQuote ..girls,... Oh yeah, I forgot to mention do not call grown women 'girls'. Do not take this personally, I tell everyone this. Same with 'chick'. . LOL! Jan, quit being such a girl! Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #44 April 9, 2004 Quoteit was "At what point does something that will raise money become so offensive that you would not consider it?" Like YOU, the second person singular. I'll bite. I always liked that description of obscenity the SC came up with that said that "offensiveness" was defined by the local community. So, what would be cool and neat in my camera locker at the DZ is going to be different than what would be cool and neat in my daughter's 2nd grade Catholic school classroom. Likewise, I call my wife, daughters, and women friends all kinds of affectionate nicknames that some women find offensive. I think the contentiousness of this thread is due to the tone set by one poster as to what "can and cannot" be done. "Do not call women 'girl'". I laughed out loud at that one. Keep trying to tell me what to do. Keep trying to tell me what is right and wrong. I scoff at thee. The angry, defensive, humorless people are invited to not attend the party. What is offensive is their constant lobbying that parties should be disallowed for the folks that enjoy them. Reminds me of the Counties that don't allow dancing. Counties where the people who make the rules never got invited to a dance. Anyway, Kallend, my definition of offensive would be a picture so overtly sexual in nature that it would require and explanation to my children, who are female human 7 year olds. Something along the line of "Dad, why is that lady licking her own nipple?" A question like, "Hey Dad, how come all those ladies on the back of the big plane have their bras showing?" would require a truthful response of "Cause it was fun". I suppose a government agency should take my daughters from me because I am sowing the seeds that will blossom with them being featured as harlots on "Girls Gone Wild". Then again, maybe there's more to them than bras and panties. I'll keep my house full of love and laughter over one where I can't call my daughters "baby". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,435 #45 April 9, 2004 >'I posted that tiny bit so that maybe, just maybe, you will ditch the > T&A aspect and go for REAL skydiving photos.' I guess I'm too much of a feminist to think that telling women what they can and can't do (or should and shouldn't do) is a good thing. Being a feminist means that you believe that women can do whatever they want to, even when society, their partners, or a BOD member tells them they can't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Keith 0 #46 April 9, 2004 I've watched this thread and was going to keep my mouth shut because I think this whole T&A stance is prudish and unworthy of comment. However, Jan, I think you should start a memorial fund for what ever crawled up your ass and died, then, you can decide what fundraising techniques are acceptable. Sheesh, we're not talking Penthouse shots here. Leave these women alone to raise money how their morals allow. I for one plan on buying a calendar.Keith Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflybella 0 #47 April 9, 2004 I have also kept quiet on this one - but have to say that bashing Jan's perspective is no better than what most of you are accusing her of doing. I despise the mob mentality, or whatever it is, that allows poeple to just jump on someone with a different viewpoint. Especially if they aren't expressing it the way YOU would. And am disgusted that a man would use words like 'prudish' in responding a woman's issue of respect. I think it speaks to Jan's point. As a female skydiver, I deal with preconceived ideas about what I'm really at the DZ for - how good I am on jumps - willingness to flash my tits for alititude - among many other things. I work hard to be a good skydiver as a woman in a mostly male sport. Breast cancer is a WOMAN'S issue. It makes sense that women would get together to support that. But it's also a public issue - and gets publicity. For those participating in the jumps who believe that this calendar idea sets them back in their efforts to not be looked at primarily for their outward physical characteristics - and in effect, discounts what they work for daily on the dz - they have a right to speak up. They are, not by choice, being represented by this calendar. If I were doing the JFTC jumps - and I'm not - I would prefer that I not be represented to the skydiving community as a pretty picture. I sincerely applaud the efforts and enthusiasm of everyone coming together for this issue. I personally would prefer that women find other ways to promote ourselves besides the tired, old "look at me" ways. **This is not a bash of the calendar idea or of those who think it's a good idea. If I had the ability to stop you from doing it I wouldn't. I would just ask that all the women on the JFTC jumps be fairly represented and heard. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Keith 0 #48 April 9, 2004 Be disgusted all you want. Prudish is prudish. QuoteBreast cancer is a WOMAN'S issue. You need to do some research. MEN get breast cancer too. QuoteFor those participating in the jumps who believe that this calendar idea sets them back in their efforts to not be looked at primarily for their outward physical characteristics - Yeah, yeah, I know. "I am woman hear me roar.". My point is you're preaching to the choir. I don't think you'll find a group of men more aware that women are more than the sum of their body parts than skydivers. Judging from your post, you wouldn't happen to be a separatist would you?Keith Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #49 April 9, 2004 First off, MEN get breast cancer, as well. You could ask Rod Roddy (the announcer) if he did not die of it. Next, the bashing of Jan is not a bashing of her perspective. Everyone seems to believe that she has a right to that perspective. The issue is that she seeks to tell women (and men) what is appropriate and what is not appropriate. I have an issue with ANYONE proselytizing to people on things like this. It is anathema to empowerment of women to tell them that they are not doing women any favors. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #50 April 9, 2004 Hi, Bella! QuoteFor those participating in the jumps who believe that this calendar idea sets them back in their efforts to not be looked at primarily for their outward physical characteristics - From the original post.... QuoteNo, we're not revisiting Janet Jackson's half time show. As a matter of fact, we are looking to do this in such a way that Grandma would be proud to have the calendar hanging in her office at the church. Sure, lots of skin, cleavage, muted tones, black and white maybe, but no "money" shots...it's about the different sides of our skysisters, their ability to put together an amazing skydiving event, as well as be sensual, gentle, beautiful, erotic women. It's not about supermodels, it's about women - their beauty, their strength, their courage. It's about their smiles, their laughter, their hearts. And in some cases, it's about surviving the very illness which JFTC supports - breast cancer. I would urge all those who anticipate being offended by the calendar to wait until it comes out. If at that time you are offended, by all means speak your piece. In the interim, if some choose to participate, and others don't, that's just fine by us. We have at least a dozen women confirmed for the Perris shoot (and several who are tentative), with many more asking for locations near them where they can go. This has been very well received, from both men and women, and we anticipate that this will be an excellent fundraiser to assist those who want to contribute to JFTC. Thanks for all the discussion! Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
