Tonto 1 #26 March 24, 2004 QuoteUsed improperly a canopy will injure its user Really? Q. Why do we have a quadroplegic instructor at our DZ? A. Because of a canopy collision. I think that’s important to remember when looking at your analogy. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Brains 2 #27 March 24, 2004 QuoteLike NacMac says... A firearm is a tool to do a job, .22" for squirrels & rabbits, .303" for red deer... Which raises a small question ()... What job does a .50" BMG do? Have the american squirrels suddenly taken to going around in SUVs and body armour? And you REALLY need something to take out the vehicle, penetrate the body armour and kill the squirrel? Mike. No they haven't YET. But wild hogs at 600-800 yards in S. TX can be hard to bring down with other calibers. Swoopy, if you need a place to "store" it let me know, i have a use for one. Never look down on someone, unless they are going down on you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
devcloud 0 #28 March 24, 2004 QuoteQ. Why do we have a quadroplegic instructor at our DZ? A. Because of a canopy collision. I think that’s important to remember when looking at your analogy. t OK, I have to concede to that, you are right…. However, and I realise this is a crappy thing to say, but Anyone who jumps out of a plane has to accept that there is some risk involved with the activity they’re doing… even, and sometimes especially when they’ve done nothing wrong during the skydive. In that respect at least a choice is involved. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #29 March 24, 2004 "and sometimes especially when they’ve done nothing wrong during the skydive." And there is a well known British camera flier who was injured by an errant would be swooper after the skydive.....-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
koz2000 1 #30 March 24, 2004 The point being, sometimes people do stuff for fun. My reference was that guns are not only used for tools, just as canopies are not just used as tools.______________________________________________ - Does this small canopy make my balls look big? - J. Hayes - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #31 March 24, 2004 Quoteand sometimes especially when they’ve done nothing wrong during the skydive. And a dead child in SA as a result of a demo jumper who swooped into the crowd. She was 6. What risk do you think she accepted when she went to her school fundraiser? tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #32 March 24, 2004 She didn't - she's six. But simply by being there her parents accepted the risk of someone falling from the sky and taking her out on her behalf. Under the UK law there would be very little hope of successfully bringing a lawsuit. Is SA law the same? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
devcloud 0 #33 March 24, 2004 QuoteThe point being, sometimes people do stuff for fun. My reference was that guns are not only used for tools, just as canopies are not just used as tools. OK, OK, i can see your point, it's just a little difficult to understand it from my particular point of view as i don't have access to any guns for fun or otherwise, and i really realise what i'm about to say is probably sacrilege... but i don't really see the difference between a big gun, and a slightly bigger gun? I can see this going back to the canopy thing, but i get the difference between a small canopy, and a slightly smaller canopy... it goes faster, turns quicker and gives a physical rush. What does the bigger gun do? Put a bigger hole in the target? I'm really not taking the piss here, since i have no experience with this i need educating... does a bigger hole = more fun... i never found this to be the case Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mr2mk1g 10 #34 March 24, 2004 Quotesince i have no experience with this Sure you do - remember last year at the gun range near Perris. This year when we go back are you gonna rent another 9mm or you want one of the fucking hand cannons Crazy Mike had? You remember the "crack crack crack" of the 9mm's and then the "Booooom" accompanied by a huge backwash from down the end of the range. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites devcloud 0 #35 March 24, 2004 QuoteQuotesince i have no experience with this Sure you do - remember last year at the gun range near Perris. This year when we go back are you gonna rent another 9mm or you want one of the fucking hand cannons Crazy Mike had? You remember the "crack crack crack" of the 9mm's and then the "Booooom" accompanied by a huge backwash from down the end of the range. IF i go back i'll probably try the 9mm again as the Ammo seemed to be more reasonably priced. It was a fun one off experience, and thats what life is all about, trying things. But i couldn't go somewhere like that and shoot at paper targets all the time... that would get f*ckin' dull! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Tonto 1 #36 March 24, 2004 QuoteIs SA law the same? Identical. If you die here, it's probably your own fault.tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Tonto 1 #37 March 24, 2004 QuoteWhat does the bigger gun do? Put a bigger hole in the target? I'm really not taking the piss here, since i have no experience with this i need educating... does a bigger hole = more fun... i never found this to be the case Shooting at great ranges introduces many variables which can be very difficult and challenging to control. A .50 BMG round could be effective out to 1800 yards, possibly even further depending on the target. Distances like that make a 2 knot crosswind unadjusted for, ANYTHING touching the barrel, a change in surface tempreture like shooting over some dirt, some grass, some water to the target, a change in density altitude, the degree of crimp on the round, the seating of the primer or ANY variable mean that you are GARENTEED to miss. Trimming those factors, predicting weather and wind etc create a blend of art and science which are very satisfying. Hitting a target at that range gives you a really nice feeling of achievement. Few could ever do it, regardless of the tools they were given. Having said that, there's more to the military application of such marksmanship that simple good shooting. Sure, they cut a few corners with lazer range finders etc since they're not on a range, but when you've spent 2 or 3 days getting into a position without swatting a single bug to use those skills, and when you see the shitstorm that arrives when the target goes down, you wouldn't mind that little bit of extra insurance either. When you're a civilian, it's more a Walter Mitty kind of skill, or a means of reliving your past, as that type of marksmanship is never required of hunters or even Olympic competitors. In fact, the purcieved poor stalking skills would probably be ethically frowned apon by most hunters. It still feels really good to reach out and touch a point in time and space at 800+ yards, even using relativly humble calibre weapons (Relative to .50 BMG) like Win 308 or 7 mil Rem Mag. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Kennedy 0 #38 March 24, 2004 Bigger guns can equal bigger fun just like smaller guns can equal bigger fun. Sometimes, like with a .45-70 you really have to stalk the bugger closely to get the shot. (it is a big slow bullet that won't fly far, but it hits very hard) Some people enjoy hunting with handguns. It is a different set of skills, getting close and hitting with a wheel gun. Other people like the long range stuff. The skill and luck required for an accurate SWAG are hard to come by. (SWAG = Scientific Wild Ass Guess) It's just like some jumpers like 4way, some like freeflying, some are swoopers, some go for style and accuracy, and nobody understand the crewdogs. Different flavors fo the same fun.witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Tonto 1 #39 March 24, 2004 I agree completely. I enjoy my .44 magnum, and my Mod 71 Berreta in .22. Some of my most satisfying "long range" shooting has been with a .22 at 150 yards. It's all fun, just the same way I enjoy FS, CF, freelying, Wingsuits and swooping. Love it all. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites crapflinger2000 1 #40 March 24, 2004 Actually the US Military has been using M2s for sniping since Korea, if not before... the civilain mkt hardly created .50 BMG long distance shooting... __________________________________________________ What would Vic Mackey do? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Kennedy 0 #41 March 24, 2004 QuoteIt was a fun one off experience, and thats what life is all about, trying things. But i couldn't go somewhere like that and shoot at paper targets all the time... that would get f*ckin' dull! That does get dull once you are proficient, just like solo belly flying does. That's why people go into their own area. Some people never shoot anything other than paper (and metal) targets, but they make the tagets and the courses realistic, and they compete against the clock and each other. Others combine their shooting skills with stalking and become hunters. Others take the big .50s out and "plink" at 1000 yards. And so on and so forth. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Kennedy 0 #42 March 24, 2004 My understanding is that Carlos Hathcock, late of USMC, was the first to use the M2 as a sniping platform and that he did so in Vietnam. http://www.olive-drab.com/od_other_firearms_mg_m2.php3witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #43 March 24, 2004 QuoteI live in a country where something like... this... is so unusual it ends up on the frontpage on national newspapers. So I think I'll run away from this one. Well, the population of Norway is onlyi 4 million people, less than the population of the Houston, Texas, area, where I live. So that's a case of apples and oranges. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #44 March 24, 2004 QuoteActually the US Military has been using M2s for sniping since Korea, if not before... the civilain mkt hardly created .50 BMG long distance shooting... The M2 is a crew weapon. It can't be carried by one man. Maybe I wasn't clear enough, but I was referring to the .50 caliber long -range rifles that can be carried by a single soldier, for sniping, and anti-armor action. The NRA magazine just did an article on this. You may be familiar with the History Channel show called "Tactical to Practical", which shows how things developed for the military, have applications in practical life, like GPS, and so on. Well, the .50 caliber personal rifle is the reverse case; "Practical to Tactical" - developed in the civilian world, and then adopted by the military. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chopchop 0 #45 March 24, 2004 Quote Just found out the contra costa county officials are trying to ban any and all civilians that currently own a .50 cal rifle. Are they gonna ban these gun-owners from the county? or what? I mean.. ummm.. "Sorry, sir.. you own a .50 cal. rifle. You are not allowed in Contra Costa county." Maybe they should just ban the gun.. chopchop gotta go... Plaything needs a spanking.. Lotsa Pictures Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites koz2000 1 #46 March 24, 2004 Sure, Everything is different. Some guys really like high power long range, some people like extrememly precise .22 shooting, some people like sporting clays (to include the british royalty), some people only like handguns. For some people that particular gun is their fancy. If you're ever in a area where you can do some shooting, (besides the ghetto) give it a whirl. You might actually understand where we're coming from. peace and blue skies, D______________________________________________ - Does this small canopy make my balls look big? - J. Hayes - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites crapflinger2000 1 #47 March 24, 2004 I can carry a Ma Deuce all by myself. Including tripod and ammo, spare barrel.... Note I am not saying how far I can carry it though... __________________________________________________ What would Vic Mackey do? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites markd_nscr986 0 #48 March 24, 2004 For gluttons like me they have this marvelous event called 3 gun, where you compete (shoot!)pistol rifle & shotgun.And you can pretty much pick and chose what kind of hardware you want to bring.There is a place for everyone .......generally IPSC rules apply for scoring and safety, but be prepared on the courses of fire.....anything goes and there are always lots of surprises!Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peacefuljeffrey 0 #49 March 24, 2004 QuoteQuoteso when does everything have to be a useful tool?? There are a TON of people who don't like to hunt but like to shoot. It's recreational shooting. To put it in perspective, it's like saying the only canopy anyone should fly will be a MC-4. Small canopies are dangerous and who needs to attempt to injure themselves? The MC-4 (tool) gives safe delivery to the ground..... Used improperly a canopy will injure its user, used improperly a gun will injure others… I don’t know why, but I think that’s important to remember when looking at your analogy Used improperly, ANYTHING can injure ANYBODY. Therefore, that is not a reason to BAN the things that have the potential to be misused or abused. Baseball bats, kitchen knives, automobiles, pipe wrenches, rat poison... ALL of these things can be abused, but they serve a useful purpose and the bad does not outweigh the good. Neither does the bad outweigh the good with firearms. So unless you want people to demand that we ban cars because some people abuse them (driving drunk, or even deliberately running people down), don't go suggesting that guns be banned. --Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mr2mk1g 10 #50 March 24, 2004 QuoteNeither does the bad outweigh the good with firearms. Do you not see that that is a subjective jugement and that the majority of people in the UK have decided that the bad does outweigh the good for them. Therefore they have been banned. If it was not the will of the majority it would not have happened. Its a democracy - those who decided the bad did not outweigh the good were not numerous enough and were thus outvoted. Its the basic tennant of democracy. If you don't like it - don't come live here, no one is asking you to. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. 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mr2mk1g 10 #34 March 24, 2004 Quotesince i have no experience with this Sure you do - remember last year at the gun range near Perris. This year when we go back are you gonna rent another 9mm or you want one of the fucking hand cannons Crazy Mike had? You remember the "crack crack crack" of the 9mm's and then the "Booooom" accompanied by a huge backwash from down the end of the range. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
devcloud 0 #35 March 24, 2004 QuoteQuotesince i have no experience with this Sure you do - remember last year at the gun range near Perris. This year when we go back are you gonna rent another 9mm or you want one of the fucking hand cannons Crazy Mike had? You remember the "crack crack crack" of the 9mm's and then the "Booooom" accompanied by a huge backwash from down the end of the range. IF i go back i'll probably try the 9mm again as the Ammo seemed to be more reasonably priced. It was a fun one off experience, and thats what life is all about, trying things. But i couldn't go somewhere like that and shoot at paper targets all the time... that would get f*ckin' dull! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #36 March 24, 2004 QuoteIs SA law the same? Identical. If you die here, it's probably your own fault.tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #37 March 24, 2004 QuoteWhat does the bigger gun do? Put a bigger hole in the target? I'm really not taking the piss here, since i have no experience with this i need educating... does a bigger hole = more fun... i never found this to be the case Shooting at great ranges introduces many variables which can be very difficult and challenging to control. A .50 BMG round could be effective out to 1800 yards, possibly even further depending on the target. Distances like that make a 2 knot crosswind unadjusted for, ANYTHING touching the barrel, a change in surface tempreture like shooting over some dirt, some grass, some water to the target, a change in density altitude, the degree of crimp on the round, the seating of the primer or ANY variable mean that you are GARENTEED to miss. Trimming those factors, predicting weather and wind etc create a blend of art and science which are very satisfying. Hitting a target at that range gives you a really nice feeling of achievement. Few could ever do it, regardless of the tools they were given. Having said that, there's more to the military application of such marksmanship that simple good shooting. Sure, they cut a few corners with lazer range finders etc since they're not on a range, but when you've spent 2 or 3 days getting into a position without swatting a single bug to use those skills, and when you see the shitstorm that arrives when the target goes down, you wouldn't mind that little bit of extra insurance either. When you're a civilian, it's more a Walter Mitty kind of skill, or a means of reliving your past, as that type of marksmanship is never required of hunters or even Olympic competitors. In fact, the purcieved poor stalking skills would probably be ethically frowned apon by most hunters. It still feels really good to reach out and touch a point in time and space at 800+ yards, even using relativly humble calibre weapons (Relative to .50 BMG) like Win 308 or 7 mil Rem Mag. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #38 March 24, 2004 Bigger guns can equal bigger fun just like smaller guns can equal bigger fun. Sometimes, like with a .45-70 you really have to stalk the bugger closely to get the shot. (it is a big slow bullet that won't fly far, but it hits very hard) Some people enjoy hunting with handguns. It is a different set of skills, getting close and hitting with a wheel gun. Other people like the long range stuff. The skill and luck required for an accurate SWAG are hard to come by. (SWAG = Scientific Wild Ass Guess) It's just like some jumpers like 4way, some like freeflying, some are swoopers, some go for style and accuracy, and nobody understand the crewdogs. Different flavors fo the same fun.witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #39 March 24, 2004 I agree completely. I enjoy my .44 magnum, and my Mod 71 Berreta in .22. Some of my most satisfying "long range" shooting has been with a .22 at 150 yards. It's all fun, just the same way I enjoy FS, CF, freelying, Wingsuits and swooping. Love it all. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crapflinger2000 1 #40 March 24, 2004 Actually the US Military has been using M2s for sniping since Korea, if not before... the civilain mkt hardly created .50 BMG long distance shooting... __________________________________________________ What would Vic Mackey do? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #41 March 24, 2004 QuoteIt was a fun one off experience, and thats what life is all about, trying things. But i couldn't go somewhere like that and shoot at paper targets all the time... that would get f*ckin' dull! That does get dull once you are proficient, just like solo belly flying does. That's why people go into their own area. Some people never shoot anything other than paper (and metal) targets, but they make the tagets and the courses realistic, and they compete against the clock and each other. Others combine their shooting skills with stalking and become hunters. Others take the big .50s out and "plink" at 1000 yards. And so on and so forth. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #42 March 24, 2004 My understanding is that Carlos Hathcock, late of USMC, was the first to use the M2 as a sniping platform and that he did so in Vietnam. http://www.olive-drab.com/od_other_firearms_mg_m2.php3witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #43 March 24, 2004 QuoteI live in a country where something like... this... is so unusual it ends up on the frontpage on national newspapers. So I think I'll run away from this one. Well, the population of Norway is onlyi 4 million people, less than the population of the Houston, Texas, area, where I live. So that's a case of apples and oranges. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #44 March 24, 2004 QuoteActually the US Military has been using M2s for sniping since Korea, if not before... the civilain mkt hardly created .50 BMG long distance shooting... The M2 is a crew weapon. It can't be carried by one man. Maybe I wasn't clear enough, but I was referring to the .50 caliber long -range rifles that can be carried by a single soldier, for sniping, and anti-armor action. The NRA magazine just did an article on this. You may be familiar with the History Channel show called "Tactical to Practical", which shows how things developed for the military, have applications in practical life, like GPS, and so on. Well, the .50 caliber personal rifle is the reverse case; "Practical to Tactical" - developed in the civilian world, and then adopted by the military. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chopchop 0 #45 March 24, 2004 Quote Just found out the contra costa county officials are trying to ban any and all civilians that currently own a .50 cal rifle. Are they gonna ban these gun-owners from the county? or what? I mean.. ummm.. "Sorry, sir.. you own a .50 cal. rifle. You are not allowed in Contra Costa county." Maybe they should just ban the gun.. chopchop gotta go... Plaything needs a spanking.. Lotsa Pictures Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
koz2000 1 #46 March 24, 2004 Sure, Everything is different. Some guys really like high power long range, some people like extrememly precise .22 shooting, some people like sporting clays (to include the british royalty), some people only like handguns. For some people that particular gun is their fancy. If you're ever in a area where you can do some shooting, (besides the ghetto) give it a whirl. You might actually understand where we're coming from. peace and blue skies, D______________________________________________ - Does this small canopy make my balls look big? - J. Hayes - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crapflinger2000 1 #47 March 24, 2004 I can carry a Ma Deuce all by myself. Including tripod and ammo, spare barrel.... Note I am not saying how far I can carry it though... __________________________________________________ What would Vic Mackey do? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markd_nscr986 0 #48 March 24, 2004 For gluttons like me they have this marvelous event called 3 gun, where you compete (shoot!)pistol rifle & shotgun.And you can pretty much pick and chose what kind of hardware you want to bring.There is a place for everyone .......generally IPSC rules apply for scoring and safety, but be prepared on the courses of fire.....anything goes and there are always lots of surprises!Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #49 March 24, 2004 QuoteQuoteso when does everything have to be a useful tool?? There are a TON of people who don't like to hunt but like to shoot. It's recreational shooting. To put it in perspective, it's like saying the only canopy anyone should fly will be a MC-4. Small canopies are dangerous and who needs to attempt to injure themselves? The MC-4 (tool) gives safe delivery to the ground..... Used improperly a canopy will injure its user, used improperly a gun will injure others… I don’t know why, but I think that’s important to remember when looking at your analogy Used improperly, ANYTHING can injure ANYBODY. Therefore, that is not a reason to BAN the things that have the potential to be misused or abused. Baseball bats, kitchen knives, automobiles, pipe wrenches, rat poison... ALL of these things can be abused, but they serve a useful purpose and the bad does not outweigh the good. Neither does the bad outweigh the good with firearms. So unless you want people to demand that we ban cars because some people abuse them (driving drunk, or even deliberately running people down), don't go suggesting that guns be banned. --Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #50 March 24, 2004 QuoteNeither does the bad outweigh the good with firearms. Do you not see that that is a subjective jugement and that the majority of people in the UK have decided that the bad does outweigh the good for them. Therefore they have been banned. If it was not the will of the majority it would not have happened. Its a democracy - those who decided the bad did not outweigh the good were not numerous enough and were thus outvoted. Its the basic tennant of democracy. If you don't like it - don't come live here, no one is asking you to. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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