1985 Student Gear HELP!! **UPDATE

[riggerrob 558]

... As far as rounds, there is nothing wrong with a round reserve. ...

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First of all, the Swift harness/container was the first (1981) certified for SQUARE RESERVES ONLY. Para-Flite only authorized packing Swift or Orion reserves into Swift containers. The Swift container spawned the whole MT-1XXXXXX series of military free-fall rigs, which were only available with square reserves.
Why anyone would try to pack a round reserve into a Swift baffles me. Where do you install the kicker plate?????????

[riggerrob 558]

I disagree.

I am so old that I taught the (static-line) first jump course on military-surplus rounds. Round canopies broke far more legs because of the angle of arrival. By the end of 1979, I had already carried my life-time quota of broken legs off the DZ.

I welcomed every advance in student gear during the 1980s: Para-Commanders, RSLs, piggyback containers, throw-out pilot-chutes, IAD, electronic AADs, ZP fabric, square reserves, BOC, etc.
I hated teaching the FJC with square mains and round reserves. The first problem was that students were over-loaded with new information well before they finished ground school. As soon as I told them that they had a 1 percent chance of using a reserve, they promptly dumped that info from their short term memory, which meant that it was not accessible when the 100th student found themselves hanging under a round reserve.
I doubt if half of my "this century" students remembered what I said about reserves having different-coloured steering handles.
I was really glad when I started working at a school that used square reserves Tempo 250 because it vastly simplified FJC ground school.

[mcordell 2]

piisfish

***

Ok, with the exception of a few uncommon rigs, the vast majority of pilot bailout rigs, and probably all pilot bailout rigs you are likely to pack have rounds. Is that better? By far the majority are round.

Round parachutes are very reliable and it's very hard to screw it up once it is open. That's why they are packed into rigs for people who don't know what they are doing.

thanks for sharing your knowledge with, for example, Sandy Reid and explain him why the Aviator is a bad idea
I never said they were a bad idea. I think they are a great idea for people who are trained to fly them.

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[piisfish 135]

And untrained people too. There are different versions of the canopy, if I understand correctly in size and brake setting.
Some canopies are for trained pilots, some other for untrained pilots.
Also some countries have banned round reserve canopies in skydiving altogether.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[mcordell 2]

riggerrob

Quote

Round parachutes are very reliable and it's very hard to screw it up once it is open.

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As for the myth that round require less training .... how many jumps do you have on rounds?

To be honest as an emergency parachute they really don't require any training other than a plf. As long as it opens and gets you to the ground alive it did it's job. My plan is always to not have to use it. If I do then it's an emergency. With a round you can tell someone to exit the aircraft and pull the handle and then they go where the wind takes them. With a square they get more forward drive and if they do nothing they may end up with a half brake downwind no flare landing that's going to really suck. If they screw with it they could make things way worse (with no training). They have the opportunity to spiral into the ground, stall the canopy, flare 40 feet off the ground, go into full flight and no flare their downwind landing, or a number of other eff ups. What can an ignorant user do to the round?

I don't think it's a myth that the round RESERVE requires less training since you can give none and they will likely be ok.

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[mcordell 2]

piisfish

And untrained people too. There are different versions of the canopy, if I understand correctly in size and brake setting.
Some canopies are for trained pilots, some other for untrained pilots.
Also some countries have banned round reserve canopies in skydiving altogether.

Are they banned for bailout rigs too? I'm not a fan of the idea of government telling me I can't have an airworthy reserve because they don't like them. Like I said before, I have 3 rigs and one of them has a round reserve. I obviously would prefer to have a square but in my third rig I'm fine with it. If I have to use it, it's an emergency parachute and it will get me to the ground safely. It may not be comfortable but at that point it's a life saving device.

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[piisfish 135]

Go get an Aviator and have a try or several
Compare with your run of the mill round.
Come back and report

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[mcordell 2]

piisfish

Go get an Aviator and have a try or several
Compare with your run of the mill round.
Come back and report

Again, I didn't say it's a bad idea. I think it's a great idea. We don't disagree on that. I just don't have a problem with round reserves. I'm more than willing to pack them as long as they are airworthy and I'm not sure why any rigger would refuse. They are for emergencies. In an emergency they are very likely to work.

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[mark 103]

mcordell

In an emergency [round reserves] are very likely to work.

Well, yes. But then you'd still have an emergency.

Mark

[RiggerLee 61]

I think that's a little skewed. All rounds are not equal and Mill surplus are not at the top of the list. I've never actually jumped an unmodified round and I'm assuming yours were cut, 7TU or LL. I have made a number of jumps on old modified 7TU C-9's. I've got one that's my favorite scary old rig for nostalgia day jumps. It's by no means my nicest round canopy but it's one of my scariest looking ones to freak out the yuppies. The point is that a good Strong Enterprises 26' LOPO is a very nice canopy. It's not an oscillator. At reasonable loadings it doesn't land all that hard. If you keep your legs together it's nothing to be scared of. And as I said I think it can potentially simplify a lot of things.

I should also point out that I'm only like 140 lb. My perspective is a little different then some because there aren't that many round canopies that actually scare me.

Lee

Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

[riggerrob 558]

mcordell

***... I'm not a fan of the idea of government telling me I can't have an airworthy [round] reserve because they don't like them. ....

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Most of those bans were written by civilian, sporting organizations a decade or three since round main parachutes disappeared (circa 1990) from civilian skydiving schools. The decision was usually made by grumpy, old, grey-bearded POPS who had jumped rounds back when they were fashionable, but now all owned square reserves. Most of their sore knees, backs, ankles, etc. were caused by rounds and they had no desire to repeat the injuries.

I am old enough to have made 70 jumps on rounds, including landing 3 round reserves.

I repeat my question: how jumps have you made on round mains????

[riggerrob 558]

..... as an emergency parachute they really don't require any training other than a plf. ...

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The Canadian Army devoted 2 weeks to pounding PLFS into me.
I rarely saw civilian skydiving students do perfect PLFs.
You also forgot about the difference in ANGLE of arrival. The human body is designed and programmed to well absorb forward and side-ways landings.
Injury rates increase dramatically when PLFing backwards.

[riggerrob 558]

piisfish

Go get an Aviator and have a try or several
Compare with your run of the mill round.
Come back and report

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I did try jumping the Aviator 290 and rather enjoyed it.

That was 20 years ago. Turns were not quite as dramatic as my Sabre and "flaring" did little to change the angle of arrival. "Flaring" did slow down the rate of descent a bit, but I ran out of muscle by the time I pulled the steering loops to my shoulders.
After my third jump, I got bored and deliberately landed it down-wind, hands-off, in the toolies surrounding the Lake Elsinore, California DZ. All those landings were softer than I remember under round canopies. The greatest improvement was the ANGLE of arrival - much flatter under the Aviator - which allowed me to slide off excess forward speed.
In conclusion, I made up my mind that large squares are vastly superior for all PEP users. I made up my mind after 70 jumps on rounds and thousands of jumps on squares. I am old and I am stubborn, so please don't waste your time trying to change my hard-earned opinion.
Hummmpppfff!!!!!