Suing DZ's....

[froggie 0]

In regards to the article posted on the main page....
the 'victem' states that she did not feel it was safe to jump. So why did she jump? To please the more expereinced jumpers? Thats not cool. If i was her (and i have been!) i would have stayed on the ground. We all have limits, and being relatively new to this sport (she has -30 jumps at the time?) we need to recognize these limits and maybe push them up a little, give ourselves limits that are a little too limited. Maybe we could jump in certain winds. but do we really want to find out what would happen if something went wrong? No, wed rather be here to make another skydive tomorrow, not burn in today.
If i was depending on a radio transmittion to determine that i should perhaps ride the plane down, then i dont want to be on that plane ready to jump. If youre not comfortable getting in the door, let alone riding the plane up, then you shouldnt be jumping that day. Its all about mental preperation, and not being able to concetrate on the upcoming jump is not getting mentally prepped! I dont know, i just feel that this woman failed to listen to herself, and i think that was her most serious mistake.
I understand that this was not an ordinary fun jump, it was a publicity stunt. And im sure that there are added pressures to that situation, pressures to just go ahead and jump. But honestly, i love my dz, and i adore my DZO... I wouldnt want to do anything that might bring bad publicity to the dz or dzo.
whats okay for you to jump in (winds) might not be okay for me to jump in. And thats what makes this sport what it is... all the different 'levels' you move on to. IF we were all equal and on the same ability level, then there would be no advancing, no moving up. And that wouldnt work for us fun seeking, challenge needing adventurists.
ITs one thing to take advice, and listen to the more experienced jumpers. But what good is that advice if it means youre not sure how youll walk away (or if you will walk away?) Go ahead, listen, learn and absorb all the advice in the world, but remember that these people are more experienced than you are. And you must recognize your own limits, and not confuse theirs with yours. I admire the really seasoned jumpers at my dz, and its this admiration that allows me to stay on the ground in winds that i find too challengeing or unstable for my liking. I personally feel good when I know that these teachers, these people i admire see that i am doing everything in my power to be a safe skydiver. I dont want to be seen as a unnessisary risk taker. The learning that takes place when you pass up on the load call is sometimes greater than the learning that takes place in freefall/under canopy.
I might be totally out of line here, but I think the moral of this story is : depend on your own judgements. were all taught that we are the sole person responsible for our own skydives. we make the final descisions, and we must live with the consequences of those desicions. There is a desire to challege ourselfs, but like downsizing your canopy, it must come in time. Before we can move on and advance we must be secure in our abilities at the basics of skydiving.
I hope that her abiities to walk and function normally develope further. to be born w/ a disease is one thing, to loose out on what you could do BEFORE is another. I imagine that shes got tremendous strength and a great emotional connection to herself. Its quite a feat when people deal w/ the loss of abilities that they took for granted before. Well wishes on her further recovery.
I apoligize for dragging on for so long, but this topic started a fire inside of my brain. I have no plans on burning in, but if it does happen you can almost be certain that its because of some freak accident, not bad judgement. We all make mistakes, but the lesson that I learned when i ignored my health last weekend and decided to jump is similar to the lesson that she learned that day. Only difference is, i landed safely, she didnt. WE all make bad desicions once in a while, but lets just hope that more people can be lucky like i was, and walk away safely. I could have just as easily had a major problem like she did, because i failed to use good judgement when deciding whether to make that NOW CALL. I dont regret my desicion to jump, because of the lessons that its taught me. And after watching people fight like crazy to get thier canopies to collapse after landing, i realize that the wind is a powerful thing, and somethign that im not ready to tackle yet. Ill leave that to the skilled skydivers.....
go ahead, i know that im going to hear it for this post.
froggie

[Patkat 0]

Froggie, I am down with your essential opinions - you gotta know when to say no and make it stick no matter what. And old hands need to know when to listen. I gotta go to work in the AM, so bedtime is nigh, but I'll try to remember to elaborate on this theme tomorrow. The article got me fired up too.
-patkat

[Dutchboy 0]

I agree with you totally, Froggie. I find it interesting that this happened in Australia. This is the sort of thing most people like to attribute to America. Everyone wants to be a victim and not take responsibility for their own actions. She got on the plane, she jumped. She did a solo jump, nobody pushed her. The wind also appeared to have nothing to do with her accident.
When will people start accepting responsibility for their own actions?

[PLFKING 3]

Hear, hear, Froggie -- well said !
The PLF CEO

[propblast 0]

I agree Froggie. The decision to jump or not ultimately lies with the jumper.
-e

[fruce 0]

Froggie, your argument/statement positions this issue wonderfully. As a skydiver, my reaction to this suit is visceral; filled with anger and disgust. Arguably, one should have the right to bring suit in cases of negligence, but to sue based on a situation wherein, all of the relevant factors, and as a direct consequence, decisions where controlled by this “skydiver” is simply irresponsible and a disservice to all of us who skydive.

fruce
http://www.fruce.com

[Anonymous 0]

Also, the fact that this woman made two tandem jumps AFTER the accident and claims to really love skydiving sort of puts the whole thing in a different light as well. Nobody forced her onto that load and to try to make some money out of the accident now is wrong. When I jump, it is my rig and my life - I will take responsibility for my own safety (as far as possible). Somehow I don't think any of those Texan skydivers who got hurt in that crash will be suing their DZ... (in fact they will probably be thanking the pilot for saving their lives). I have axed myself from a load once (and would do so again), with no arguments from the rest of the load (my wing loading is 0.77), and have also once disconnected my RSL on the climb to altitude (ended up landing about 1 mile out). BUT if I should get hurt then I will accept that as part of the risk inherent in a sport which is giving me so much pleasure and a fuller happier life.
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best - have a blast! (there, that's going to be my skydiving slogan)My $0.02/£0.01's worth

[Divadiver 0]

Our little froglett is something else isn't she! I agree with you 100%!!
Don't know how you got to be so smart, so young, but you keep this up and we'll all be learning a thing or two from you! Any time you want to wake us up and make us take notice, you go for it!!
Divadiver

[Grogs 0]

So does anyone know the real story about what happened? The press did it's typically terrible job of reporting it. The first statement makes it sound like she never even opened her chute and was lucky to be alive:

Quote

Joel Griffin thought she was dying. Having crashed to the ground from a height of 3,000 metres, she had no feeling in her legs and was in excruciating pain.

Then she goes on to say:

Quote

"I could tell the wind was very strong," she said.
"I was flying along just going straight ... and I felt myself pull backwards really hard and looked up and saw my parachute was tangled. I just started to spiral." She landed extremely hard, she said, and it felt as though her body had exploded.

So what was the deal? Is this a line-over? Or an unstowed brake line maybe? If so it sounds like the problem is her failure to react properly, not the weather. The only other possibilities I can think of from that description are a low turn (i.e. pilot error) or turbulence which actually made part of the canopy collapse (this is the ony one I can think of that would have anything at all to do with the weather).
In any case, I definitely agree with Froggie on this one. With 28 jumps, she should have at least had SOME clue what she was doing. Definitely enough to take responsibility for herself. When I first got my license, we had some pretty windy days and I jumped anyway. Lots of other people around my level chose not to because the winds were too high. I made quite a few jumps in the high winds until on one I twisted my ankle and ended up on crutches for about a month. MY choice to jump - MY ankle got hurt - MY fault.

[Pammi 0]

Quote

If so it sounds like the problem is her failure to react properly, not the weather.

That's kind of what I was thinking Grogs...it sounded like a mal that she didn't cut away from. However, since I only have 25 jumps, I wasn't sure if there was the possibility of a canopy collapsing due to high winds..? I've been actually pushed backwards before under a huge ole' Manta, but the only time I've seen a canopy actually collapse was due to thermals when it was really hot.
I totally agree, though. One of the best things about skydiving is that it is so individual! WE choose what WE can/want to do. We are ultimately responsible for ourselves and our decisions! Not jumping in high winds is the same as choosing not to jump with a skyboard...I know that it would be incredibly stupid at my level of experience and abilities. I know me better then anyone else does, and it's MY responsibility to say "Sorry man, I just don't think I should jump in this." Is it really worth your life to give in to peer pressure, even if that is what's going on???
Pammi

[Grogs 0]

It's definitely possible for a canopy to collapse. I was looking through the fatality reports from the past 5 years on skydivenet.com and it seems like in the past few years at least one person a year dies because their canopy suddenly collapsed at 100' or so because of turbulence, dust devils, etc. and didn't have a chance to reinflate. That doesn't really sound like what they're describing in this case though since those people most likely fell straight down. I can imagine a situation where a canopy hits turbulence and suddenly snaps into line twists, causing it to spiral, but it would almost have to be a fully elliptical for that to happen and I highly doubt she was jumping a fully elliptical canopy with 28 jumps. My best guess until I hear a better account is she had either an unstowed brake line or a line-over and failed to take action.
I'm also kind of curious who gave her the tandem rides? Not the same DZ I hope. I certainly wouldn't even THINK about selling the girl a tandem ride knowing her tendency to sue.

[SkyDolphin 0]

I had a situation two summers ago where I was at a dropzone that I had never jumped at before. There were high winds that day and lot's of dust devils. I made the decision to stay on the ground because I knew I didn't have the experience to jump in those winds even though many people were still jumping. Later in the day, the winds died down and I decided to make a jump. On the ride to altitude I noticed that the wind had picked up and I was a little concerned. Several people on the plane, including my husband, assured me that it would be ok and that I could handle it and so I decided to jump. Well, I ended up crashing and breaking my femur but the thought to sue the DZ or anyone else NEVER EVER EVER crossed my mind. It was my decision to jump. Even though I was told it would probably be ok, it was still my decision to go or not to go. I chose to go. I fucked up and got hurt. My fault. No one elses. PERIOD! We all know the risks everytime we step out that door.
Just my 2 cents.
Rhonda

[tigra 0]

I think suing the dz is bogus, too. Ultimately this woman is responsible for her own actions. As they say, "you pays yoour money, you takes your chances..."
I'd really like to hear what the dz has to say though, because parts of the story are disturbing. No one has ever made me feel bad for stepping down from a load because the conditions were not right, whether it was winds, clouds or low blood sugar from not eating all day. If you are uncomfortable, scratch from the load. Everyone should respect and understand that. But I also know I used better judgement in those circumstances at 200 jumps than I did at 50, or 28. Experienced skydivers and jumpmasters should not be encouraging low time jumpers to jump in questionable weather, or ignore the fact that the person was obviously not comfortable with making the jump. Don't get me wrong, its a fine line, and this girl is obviously responsible for her own actions, no matter what, but for a jumpmaster to dismiss her concerns and encourage her to jump is wrong too. ( if that is what actually happened)
I remember once being afraid to walk up to Jerry Bird and scratch myself from a load because clouds had moved in pretty thick. I didn't want anyone thinking I was a wuss, and I didn't want to pass on a great opportunity to jump with someone like Jerry Bird. But I sucked it up, went and talked to him, and he told me he wouldn't jump in the clouds either. He would have had less respect for me if I still wanted to go!
Anyway, combine peer pressure with the incredible desire to skydive and it can often overwhelm your common sense. And face it, (no offense intended here) newer skydivers often lack that judgement and the ability to know when to say no. I know that I did, and I know that I did some stupid things which I was lucky enough to walk away from, including jumping in heavy winds and serious cloud cover. As you gain experience in this sport, you also gain a greater sense of the dangers involved. You see more injuries, you become more aware of exactly what can go wrong on a skydive. Experienced skydivers have a obligation to set a good example for less experienced skydivers. At 28 jumps, as a newly licensed skydiver, I looked to my former jumpmasters for all kinds of guidance, and they were always there for me. If one of them had told me it was OK to jump, I would have.
But I still think the lawsuit seems totally out of line in this case, and there are at least 3 sides to every story, so I'd like to hear the dz's side, and what really happened to her under canopy.

[Zennie 0]

A little story 'bout a man named Ted....
A couple of weekends ago I was out at the DZ and the weather was sort of skitzy all day. Last dive of the day I manifest to do a 2-way with another guy. Right before the jump the clouds started rolling in and the wind started kicking up. This little voice inside my head started saying "I don't like this." I just started getting more & more uneasy as we got to 10 minute call. Finally I just decided to listen to my little voice & I demanifested myself -- with my partner giving me flak the whole time. But I'm not going to jump if it doesn't feel right and it definitely didn't.
Well guess what? 5 minutes after I de-manifest, the pilot kills the engines and everyone goes on standby.
Listen to the little voice. Always listen to the little voice.
------------
Blue Skies!
Zennie

[miked10270 0]

Hi Zennie,
Brave man... Good call...
It's a (sad) fact that at some DZs the attitude is that if the jumpers are willing to go up, they'll put up a 'plane as long as the 'plane will get up & down safe. At this time it takes "the right stuff" to be the one who de-manifests first.
I was at a US DZ a little over a year ago waiting to go out to the 'plane... Winds were strong but steady, yet they felt like they were getting stronger. Last thing before going out to the 'plane I asked what the winds were at manifest only to learn they were at 38mph!!! I de-manifested and kind of started a fashion. Thing is, everyone was "not happy" with the wind, but they would have jumped if someone (else) hadn't had the guts to de-manifest first.
The moral... be brave, have the courage of your convictions, and set a limit for weather. Once you have set "your" limit, don't stretch it under peer pressure. You'll probably be the one that saves the rest of the lift.
Mike D10270.

[Patkat 0]

Ok... so it took me a while to get back to this thread - and , unsurprisingly, you all covered it quite thoroughly. I'd just like to add that the tandem master who took her up after her accident is a brave soul indeed, or at least so poor it doesn't much matter if he/she gets sued.
Bleahhh! I hate stories like this.

[Deleted 0]

I feel that noone should urge anyone to jump if they're nervous or worried, but that is human nature (they're not necessarily trying to pressure you, just to support you and ease your fears). She shouldn't have jumped. If she jumped and fandango'd she should sue. If she cutaway and opened under a reserve full of holes, she should sue. If she opens with line twist, isn't smart enough to cutaway or put more fabric overhead, that's her decision (or indecision as it may be). I will not likely ever consider suing a DZ or another skydiver. I can only imagine doing so (and this is a stretch since I don't think this can ever happen) under conditions of obvious gross negligence or malicious behavior (sabatoge). We all know how unlikely either of these items ocurring is, so we'll never sue. You got in, you got out, you have the problem... Not the DZ!

[skyhawk 2]

yer canopys can collapse it has happened to me i landed off dz and got turbulance from some trees and i fell lukily i was under a 240 which i dont even have to flare to stand up :-) so i was fine but it was pretty scary
i dont think this was the dz fault it abviously had very little to do with skill level but her gear. if it was the wind it was of done the same to others as well (assuming it was so bad as to do what she claims it did to her canopy)
Edited by skyhawk on 4/3/01 08:48 PM.

[Iflyme 0]

Ok, the gal made an error in judgement, but don't any of you see the DZ and the JM's having any responsibility in this matter? If THEY had made the right decisions, discouraging her from jumping, rather than encouraging her, perhaps she would have never ended up where she did. While the article did not mention if she was licenced, it did indicate the DZ Safety Officer told her "it would be OK". Again, I agree that the jumper ulitmately is responsible, the DZ is not without blame here.
Flames?

[Zennie 0]

Quote

Again, I agree that the jumper ulitmately is responsible, the DZ is not without blame here.
Flames?

Nah, not really.
This one is kind of dicey given the article. I can only give my take based onmy limited experiences. There have been days where I've be sort of iffy about things, so I ask my instructor and he'll either say, "Yeah, you can handle it." or "I wouldn't try it if I were you". I trust his judgment, since I don't have enough experience to guage what is too rough and what isn't. If he said it was OK, I'd probably go ahead.
UNLESS, and this is the big part, I thought things might get worse between now and when I get to altitude. If a front's rolling in, it may be OK now, but 20-30 minutes from now on jump run, it could be really dangerous at ground level. I've seen it happen. This is when trusting your instincts is crucial.
I really think these kinds of things are instinctual. I think we innately know when things like the weather are about to go bad. We get uneasy. We start pacing. We keep looking up at the clouds coming in. When skydivers are constantly looking up at a cloudy sky and buzzing amongst themselves, that's just not a good sign.
Its at times like that when I think you need to not worry about looking cool and worry about living to jump another day. De-manifest yourself. No one worth jumping with will hold it against you.
So, I guess to answer your question, I'm going to give a big wishy-washy "it depends". If the DZ operators behaved the way she claims, then yeah, to the extent that she relied on their judgment, they bear some of the blame. But she still should have trusted her instincts if she doubted them so much.
As far as the litigation goes, at least she's not asking for the world like they would here in America. Sounds like basic salary losses and medical expenses. If this were in the US, she'd ask for anothe $40,000,000 in "pain and suffering" and "emotional distress". The legal lotto mentality here disgusts me. It's part of the reason I quit the legal profession.
------------
Blue Skies!
Zennie

[Grogs 0]

No flames, but like I said I'd like to hear the real story here. The only source of info we have to go by is the article written by the whuffo press, which I have to consider bad journalism even for a non-skydiving article. The only person they even interviewed was the jumper (and her lawyer). She pretty well trashes the S&TA... did they even try and contact him for his side of the story? Even a 'Mr. Soandso refused to comment' would have been something. I've jumped in winds higher than I should have, but usually in those times, it was the DZO and other more experienced jumpers saying 'Well, it might not be a good idea, but I'll leave it up to your judgement.' I know there are some unethical people out there, but I think most JM's/DZO's would poke and prod someone to jump in winds they thought were too strong. If so, shame on them. With those kind of practices that DZ probably won't stay around too long.
The article sites meteorological evidence that the winds were too strong, but were they when the plane was actually taking off? We all know just how accurate the weather guys can be. Were they really that strong when she took off? Here's what I'm talking about:
My DZO was the ground controller (i.e. the guy with the radio) for George Bush's AFF level 1 jump (George Bush was a former US President for those foreign readers who may not know). They actually ended up putting him out in 30mph winds, through no fault of their own. As my DZO tells it, while the plane was on jump run the winds on the ground suddenly gusted from a reasonable level to around 30mph. He walked over to the radio, picked up the mike to say 'Abort' and at that moment the pilot announced 'Jumpers away' so the only thing he could do was talk him in as best as he could. Imagine if he had pounded in (well, harder than he did)... there would probably be some USPA BSR's right now stating that NO jumps can be made if the winds are over 5kts or something ridiculous like that.

[FreeflyPlaymate 0]

After reading that article all I can say is thank God I have boobs! I would have bounced if I hit the ground...literally. No please excuse my sick humor, it is very sad that this has happened, I can't imagine what it would be like to go through something like that for that girl.
I will say that it sounds like she just shouldn't have been jumping. My first beach landing I thought we we're jumping over the DZ again and I'm in the plane thinking wow, we've been in here forever...look out the window...DUDE we're over the ocean what the f*** lol I'm like shit now I have to jump the beach or ride the plane down. I had about 85 jumps then, there we're jumpers who were just fresh off of AFF going, well ok they had about 20 jumps but thats a total newbie. Anyways doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out I f***ed it up for myself, skydiving is mental, if you think you're going to screw it up, guess what you will. I came down to land and i slide in on my a** just barely before the water. Wasn't an awful landing but then I had sand on my butt.
Furthermore I will add that over at my home DZ's I actually have had numerous people come up to me and ask if I was on a load when the winds were high, like they make sure I'm not going to go hurt myself...which is totally sweet...that or they just want to make sure I live another day in hopes they can get me drunk...actually if the winds are too high I usually sit co-pilot...can't force me to stay ont he ground at a DZ lol
**BLUE ONES**
BITE ME.... :P

[Deleted 0]

I was in a dz not so long ago, where they had students jump in a pretty windy day, i was talking to my girlfriend commenting my toughts on that, when 20 minutes later I see a jumper being dragged over and over, for about 30 or 40 feet, needless to say, the student was badly injured.
My toughts on the suing skydiver are these: yes , she fucked up, nobody told her to jump.
dzo's should pay a little more attention to people manifesting during windy days.
any flames ??

[Laura 0]

This may sound cold and heartless, but the truth we all live and dive by is that we pay our money, sign the waver, take our chances. She should have remembered the first thing they told her way back when: when in doubt, don't get out. Period.
Sure, riding the plane down sucks, especially when you've got low number jumps. All the way down you wonder if it was a valid decision or if you really just choked. I know, I rode it down on my sixth jump. But you what? No sooner had we landed then the pilot put the plane away and we went on an hour long weather hold. The people who got out before me
barely made the dz before the clouds closed everything off. Had I gotten out, I'd have probably opened in a world of trouble.
The one thing I keep seeing over and over again in all the time I've spent on the dropzone (if I had a jump for every hour I've spent there, I'd have my Z license by now) is that it seems that most of the people who get broken are the ones who:
a) lose sight of the big picture (landing safely)
b) get tunnel vision about what they're trying to accomplish (anyone remember the two-way that turned points all the way to impact?)
c) jumpers who are trying to impress someone/everyone else
d) trying to live up to someone else's expectations.
If you fit into any one of those four categories, you have no business being on a jump.
Which kind of brings me to my second point: what is a low-timer with twenty-something jumps doing on a publicity jump? In the States, that's called a Demo, and you need a lot of jumps and special rating to play in that league.
I'm sorry that she got hurt, but she has herself to blame and she has no cause to sue anyone.
Just MHO
--
____________________________________________
It's not safe out here.
It's wondrous.
With treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross.