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skydiveoc

replacing / repairing factory tandem parts

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So...we are not supposed to use non/factory parts like third party risers, drogues etc. But where is the line drawn? A master rigger can repair / replace a container flap, reserve line, manufacture a drogue kill line but not a drogue, he can manufacturer and replace reserve and main closing loops but not risers?

Thoughts?

Specifically I was looking to replace my bungee recoils on my sigma. Seems simple but legal?

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So...we are not supposed to use non/factory parts like third party risers, drogues etc. But where is the line drawn? A master rigger can repair / replace a container flap, reserve line, manufacture a drogue kill line but not a drogue, he can manufacturer and replace reserve and main closing loops but not risers?

Thoughts?



A Master Rigger can absolutely make parts and use them.
There is no regulation that prohibits this.

The only line is whether the part in question is TSO'd or not.

If it is TSO'd then, authorization from the manufacturer OR the FAA is required.
If the part is not TSO'd, then authorization is not required.

MEL
Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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That brings up a question: The safety stow on a molar bag is a TSO'd part and the manufacturers that I've talked with have all said that this is not something that is allowed to be made by a Master Rigger. It has to come from that manufacturer and the parts are not interchangeable from manufacturer to manufacturer. The same goes for molar bags and reserve bridles. Considering all of the other parts that Master Riggers make every day for tandem systems, where is the line as to what is TSO'd and what is not. More specifically, which parts can be made in a Master Rigger's loft and which have to be made by the manufacturer... and where does "Repair" fall in this.


masterrigger1

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So...we are not supposed to use non/factory parts like third party risers, drogues etc. But where is the line drawn? A master rigger can repair / replace a container flap, reserve line, manufacture a drogue kill line but not a drogue, he can manufacturer and replace reserve and main closing loops but not risers?

Thoughts?



A Master Rigger can absolutely make parts and use them.
There is no regulation that prohibits this.

The only line is whether the part in question is TSO'd or not.

If it is TSO'd then, authorization from the manufacturer OR the FAA is required.
If the part is not TSO'd, then authorization is not required.

MEL

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That brings up a question: The safety stow on a molar bag is a TSO'd part and the manufacturers that I've talked with have all said that this is not something that is allowed to be made by a Master Rigger.



If it is not written into their ACO manual and instructions, it is NOT a requirement that it has to come from them.
This goes back to the time the equipment was TSO'd.

As far as I know, not one manufacturer out that did this.
There are some manufacturers out there that will tell you they did, but if you check with their controlling ACO, I think you will find out something different.

Sun Path, for example, does not have any statements in their manual that requires safety stows to come from them.

They do in fact "RECOMMEND" that major repairs be done by the factory.
This means a master rigger can still do the work legally.

Quote


It has to come from that manufacturer and the parts are not interchangeable from manufacturer to manufacturer. The same goes for molar bags and reserve bridles.



If the part in question is TSO'd under the same exact TSO series, then a part can legally be interchanged if again there is no stipulation in the ACO manual that limits it from being used.

Quote


Considering all of the other parts that Master Riggers make every day for tandem systems, where is the line as to what is TSO'd and what is not. More specifically, which parts can be made in a Master Rigger's loft and which have to be made by the manufacturer



TSO'd parts include:

The Harness

The Reserve Container

The Reserve Risers

Harness Hardware

Ripcord

Reserve Pilot Chute

Reserve Bridal

Molar Bag ( if used...not needed if using a round canopy)
The safety stow is part of the Molar bag BTW...

And lastly the complete cutaway system on TSO 23d and 23f if I remember correctly.


In the earlier TSOs like TSO C23 b., there were no stipulations that required the ripcord to be made by the manufacturer, there were no safety stows back then, and also there were the certified parachute lofts.

The certified parachute lofts carried a cert from the FAA and was treated about the same as any manufacturer with regards to FAA inspections, material tracing,and etc....

So when Part 146 (certified lofts) went away, it left somewhat of a gap in the system.

If you have equipment that is certified under 23b, I know for a fact that you can make a ripcord and make safety stows because it was never written into the manual.

JFYI, Mirage and UPT (Relative Workshop) products are still manufactured under 23b.

TSO 23c, is one that I think that you can also do the same, but will have to check on it for you.

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and where does "Repair" fall in this.



Repair or Replace is the answer here.It just depends on what you are doing.

Replacing Velcro is considered a minor repair.

Replacing a Ripcord is a minor repair. If you have to make one, it is a major repair.

Same with a safety stow. If making one, I would consider it to be a major repair.
Most (..not all) Senior riggers do not even own a 308 stitch machine anyway. A 308 machine is really needed to make one in the first place.



Cheers,
MEL
Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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Hi Mark,

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In the earlier TSOs like TSO C23 b., there were no stipulations that required the ripcord to be made by the manufacturer



I hold a specific TSO-authorization for a ripcord under TSO C23b. IMO that means that no else can make that ripcord, just me. However, that also means that a rigger could do a mix & match with a similar TSO'd ripcord.

Quote

Same with a safety stow. . . .A 308 machine is really needed to make one in the first place.



I have seen them made by the mfr with just a 304 zig-zag stitch.

Just for info,

JerryBaumchen

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In the earlier TSOs like TSO C23 b., there were no stipulations that required the ripcord to be made by the manufacturer

I hold a specific TSO-authorization for a ripcord under TSO C23b. IMO that means that no else can make that ripcord, just me. However, that also means that a rigger could do a mix & match with a similar TSO'd ripcord.




Jerry,
Which TSO of yours did you spec that out and why?
Also was that part of your H/C system or just a ripcord?

Quote


Quote:
Same with a safety stow. . . .A 308 machine is really needed to make one in the first place.

I have seen them made by the mfr with just a 304 zig-zag stitch.



Yeah I had seen them in the past from Mike @ Altico.
The only ones I see anymore are homemade ones though.


MEL
Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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Hi Mark,

I think that I posted this:

Quote:
I hold a specific TSO-authorization for a ripcord under TSO C23b.

I did it as just a ripcord; not as a sub-part for any other component.

Didn't I post that info also?



Roger!
I did not know that anyone had ever held a TSO just for a ripcord which why it was confusing to me.

MEL
Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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masterrigger1

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Hi Mark,

I think that I posted this:

Quote:
I hold a specific TSO-authorization for a ripcord under TSO C23b.

I did it as just a ripcord; not as a sub-part for any other component.

Didn't I post that info also?



Roger!
I did not know that anyone had ever held a TSO just for a ripcord which why it was confusing to me.

MEL



...................................................................................

It is possible to get a separate TSO for a pilot-chute ... then a separate TSO for a bridle ... then a separate TSO for a deployment bag ... then a separate TSO for a canopy ... then a separate TSO for a set of suspension lines ... then a separate TSO for a slider ... then a separate TSO for a connector link (see Aerodyne's soft links) ... etc.
It all depends upon how much paperwork you are willing to submit to the FAA.

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It is possible to get a separate TSO for a pilot-chute ... then a separate TSO for a bridle ... then a separate TSO for a deployment bag ... then a separate TSO for a canopy ... then a separate TSO for a set of suspension lines ... then a separate TSO for a slider ... then a separate TSO for a connector link (see Aerodyne's soft links) ... etc.
It all depends upon how much paperwork you are willing to submit to the FAA.




I knew that.
I just did not know anyone had ever did one for just a ripcord!

Cheers,
MEL
Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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Hi Mark,

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I just did not know anyone had ever did one for just a ripcord!



A little background for you.

At first I was just buying an off-the-shelf ripcord that worked.

Then I went to a housing and wanted something more 'conventional.' So I began buying them from a company that makes them.

I got caught with a finished rig that sat there for eight weeks waiting on the ripcord to come in.

That is when I decided to start making my own.

That, to me, was a simple lead-in to getting certification in the event that something might come up one day.

Usually, those 'things that might come up' are rather negative in flavor.

B|

JerryBaumchen

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RiggerLee

Does capewell build complete ripcords? Do they have a "TSO" for these rip cords? Do they actually build a complete rig?

Lee



......................................................................

I doubt if Capewell holds a separate TSO for a ripcord. I also doubt that Capewell have ever made - or sold - complete parachutes in decades, because Capewell is primarily in the hardware business. They started forging hardware under a military specification back when Christ was still on static-line.

There are a lot of different formats under which sub-components may be incorporated into certified (e.g. TSOed) systems ... as long as the same quality control is applied - somewhere in the production line - and that QC is carefully documented.

For example, when I worked for Butler, Rigging Innovations and Para-Phernalia, we had ripcord-making and ripcord-testing tools in house and I made custom-length ripcords.
However, it was usually less expensive to buy complete ripcords from Capewell or Jump Shack. Depending upon the factory, I would sometimes pull-test a few ripcords - from each batch - just to ensure that pins did not slide, correct pin-spacing, etc.

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That's kind of what I was curious about. How the paper work works. Do they have to have some sort of authorization to build a specific rip cord for your rig. and another for some one else's? Did their parts have to be part of the original testing of each system? Or do they hold an independent permit that allows them to build ripcords to the specs of any manufacturer? And does it have to be through that manufacturer? I mean do they need their consent? Say I had some old rig and the manufacturer is out of business. Could they build me a rip cord with out their involvement?

Lee
Lee
lee@velocitysportswear.com
www.velocitysportswear.com

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Hi Lee,

Quote

How the paper work works.



My gut tells me ( I actually do not know ) that they probably build them to some military specification. Then it comes down to a mix-and match.

And that is why I wanted my own specific TSO, so I could build my own and no one could say anything about it.

JerryBaumchen

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JerryBaumchen

Hi Lee,

Quote

How the paper work works.



My gut tells me ( I actually do not know ) that they probably build them to some military specification. Then it comes down to a mix-and match.

And that is why I wanted my own specific TSO, so I could build my own and no one could say anything about it.

JerryBaumchen



Jerry,

You are right, Capewell doesn’t have a TSO on any of their Life Support Products. They are built to:

“The Capewell Parachute Release U.S. Government Approved”

“Capewell's Life Support product line includes Ripcord Pins and Grips manufactured to strict military requirements.”

I was involved it the testing of their Frost release system. In my opinion they tested to a higher standard than TSO.

Sparky

http://www.capewell.com/frost-release
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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That looks cool. Is it a new cape well? I can't see how it works. Is that a cover and does it have a lever and ring bellow or is it like a one shot. How does it's weight compare to a large lug cape well?

Lee
Lee
lee@velocitysportswear.com
www.velocitysportswear.com

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Hi Mike,

Quote

In my opinion they tested to a higher standard than TSO.



I spent 30 yrs in US gov't contract management. One of the things that I did was to oversee all of the testing. We almost always had higher test standards than the general industrial standards.

Many a contractor would say, "I have to do what?"

My response always was, "You should have read the contract before you signed it."

:)

JerryBaumchen

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RiggerLee

That looks cool. Is it a new cape well? I can't see how it works. Is that a cover and does it have a lever and ring bellow or is it like a one shot. How does it's weight compare to a large lug cape well?

Lee



It works similar to a mini Koch fitting. Lift with index finger and then pull down. Less weight and less bulk.

Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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riggerrob

***Does capewell build complete ripcords? Do they have a "TSO" for these rip cords? Do they actually build a complete rig?

Lee



......................................................................

I doubt if Capewell holds a separate TSO for a ripcord. I also doubt that Capewell have ever made - or sold - complete parachutes in decades, because Capewell is primarily in the hardware business. They started forging hardware under a military specification back when Christ was still on static-line.

There are a lot of different formats under which sub-components may be incorporated into certified (e.g. TSOed) systems ... as long as the same quality control is applied - somewhere in the production line - and that QC is carefully documented.

For example, when I worked for Butler, Rigging Innovations and Para-Phernalia, we had ripcord-making and ripcord-testing tools in house and I made custom-length ripcords.
However, it was usually less expensive to buy complete ripcords from Capewell or Jump Shack. Depending upon the factory, I would sometimes pull-test a few ripcords - from each batch - just to ensure that pins did not slide, correct pin-spacing, etc.

............................................................................

Strong Enterprises just announced that they certified their new TNT under TSO C23f ... er rather they got four different components certified under TSO C23F.
SEI got their TNT tandem instructor's harness/container certified under one approval.
They got the TNT student harness certified as a separate component.
SEI got their reserve canopy certified under a third pile of paperwork, and they got their Air Anchor (MARD) certified under a fourth pile of paperwork.

Incidentally, these are the first parachutes certified under the new Technical standard Order C23f.

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