wildblue 4 #26 July 8, 2002 I'm a devote follower of the 7th Holy Church of the Casa 212. There is a higher power that makes the world go 'round (av-gas) and every weekend, the pastor (pilot) leads us to a higher place of understanding. Sometimes we even sing hymns and say little prayers.it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JJohnson 0 #27 July 8, 2002 Why quibble the details? Start, finish....all of life is a journey. Are you on a path....yes you are. Whether you want to be or not, everyone is. It's called life and life is what happens while you are busy trying to make other things happen. Who knows, I may end up sleeping with old hockey goalies worshipping goat testicles.....but for right now and the past 12 years, my concept of God is the one that made the world I live in. I see his evidence every time I play with my nieces and nephews, when I look into my Golden Retriever's eyes, when I look out at the horizon under canopy or hold my wife's hand. I have no answers that can convince anybody. But the answers I got when I needed them were enough to start me on a path. My path currently has yielded nothing but a decent life where I deserved nothing. For that I am grateful. Anything is possible, but I believe there is something called a God, I have a soul and a life. When I die, I cannot say what will happen. But I think God will probably sit me down, ask me to explain some things, tell me what a moron I was and then send me out to play with the rest of children. JJJJ "Call me Darth Balls" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JJohnson 0 #28 July 8, 2002 I like to practise my faith at that church as often as I can. JJJJ "Call me Darth Balls" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,819 #29 July 8, 2002 It's you that doesn't get it. You use a form of subjective logic when convenient for your "proof", logic that doesn't follow the rules that logicians use. Yet you insist in nitpicking over points of logic when it's convenient for your so-called argument. Just for you, I've decided to lower my price. Send me a receipt for your $100 donation to "Planned Parenthood", and I'll e-mail you all rights to my soul (I can't e-mail the soul itself, since I seem to have misplaced it). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JJohnson 0 #30 July 8, 2002 Well, when I was trying to get laid a maybe was a far better cry than a no. Sometimes we takes what we gets. JJJJ "Call me Darth Balls" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Meathorse 0 #31 July 8, 2002 OK... I'd say my soul is worth a double cheeseburger, now how am I supposed to do this?... I Roy Spinner sell my soul to Jeff Johnson for the sum of $1.00, to do with as he sees fit. And I'll even throw in a nice sized chunk of beachfront property in Arizona for an extra 50 cents. I like how you think Jeff. Don't try to change or convert anyone else's beliefs because there will never be any way of knowing for sure short of the 2nd coming... and by then it's too late Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Schroeder 0 #32 July 8, 2002 I'm not saying there's no god, hell, I wouldn't be surprised if there were, but in order for me to suppose that, I also have to be willing to suppose that there might _not_ be a god too. After that, which ever direction you take in your faith, (either that there is a god, or there isn't) is no longer is based on facts, it's not provable, it's not quantifiable. It's exactly that, just faith. And that's fine. Fine once you backtrack the origin of your faith, and can see where it departs a provable logic. I'm absolutely with you on the faith aspect, as I have faith too of a different type, but I can admit that I have no proof. Logic or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JJohnson 0 #33 July 8, 2002 I'll use whatever makes sense to me right or wrong....until I can be shown my error. You have not done that yet. Don't take this personal, I don't care what you believe. I don't nit pick a damn thing. The simple fact is, I believe...in something and I am willing to defend it, even though I lack concrete proof. You claim to not believe and have no logic to support that either. I'm happy with this if you are. My price still stands however. I can't afford a hundred bucks, but if I could I'd gladly donate it to a good charity. Besides if I gave you a hundred, than every other heathen would want a hundred............. Where would it stop. If you want to call it quits, just say it: I don't believe in a God, I renounce the entire concept as foolish and I don't think I have a soul; and if anyone were dunb enough to buy it from me I'd sell it for whatever I could get, because I'm an atheist. You do this and I'll respect your choice whether I greee or not. JJJJ "Call me Darth Balls" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JJohnson 0 #34 July 8, 2002 Meathorse, give me the address and I'll send you the buck. I think you shoulda held out for a side of fries though. Yeah, I've been called stubborn a time or two. My point wasn't to prove anything, just to see if any of the people thaty questioned the topic were really as atheist as they thought. JJJJ "Call me Darth Balls" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites favaks 0 #35 July 8, 2002 Quote even though I lack concrete proof. You claim to not believe and have no logic to support that either. I'm happy with this if you are. You don't understand the nature of Atheism at all. There are two types, weak and strong atheism. A weak atheist has NO believe in god. This does not imply believing or not believing. A strong atheist believes that there is no god, because there is no sufficient evidence. The burden of proof is on the believers. favaks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JJohnson 0 #36 July 8, 2002 I'm sorry I must have been mistaken, I was only going by the dictionary version of Atheist/Agnostic. I was unaware there were sects or cults of them!! Well you learn something new everyday. The burden of proof thing sounds too much like legal speak and I don't believe in Lawyers..only cause I have not seen any proof of an equal justice system. JJJJ "Call me Darth Balls" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MarkM 0 #37 July 8, 2002 Never really beleived in God, because really, why do I need one? But free will's another thing, I choose to believe I have that(and if I don't, well then I really didn't make a choice, now did I?). And if I have free will while a rock doesn't, then there's something to me beyond flesh and the energy that animates it. Wanna buy souls? What makes you think people have the ability to sell it? Might as well try to buy the energy I'm shedding off as I type this. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,691 #38 July 8, 2002 >And if I have free will while a rock doesn't, then there's something to > me beyond flesh and the energy that animates it. A rock has no free will? Heck, a uranium atom has free will - it will decay at some point, and no one can predict when. One of the neat discoveries in physics in the past few decades is that not only are some things hard to know, some things are impossible to know. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pdj6p 0 #39 July 8, 2002 Bill did you just say that you don't know everything? Death is so permanant, and I'm just not ready for that kind of committment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JJohnson 0 #40 July 9, 2002 Sorry man, that was not the point. You don't know if you have a sould or not. But if you do, you probably would not want to sell it or take the chance on it. That was the point. Only the true non-believer would really take me up on it. Anybody else is an agnostic. JJJJ "Call me Darth Balls" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,819 #41 July 9, 2002 Mr. Johnson - I have no reason to prove the non-existence of a God or a pantheon of Gods. It simply doesn't interest me enough to devote a lot of time to the topic. If you want to claim the existence of something, the burden of proof is on you, not on me. I don't have to believe in a supernatural being in order to lead a good and clean life. Your mileage may vary. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #42 July 9, 2002 Quote7th Holy Church of the Casa 212 heya! now theres a religion i could really get behind. i assume of course you have a working relationship with the brotherhood of Otters, Skyvans and DC3's ?____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,819 #43 July 9, 2002 QuoteSorry man, that was not the point. You don't know if you have a sould or not. But if you do, you probably would not want to sell it or take the chance on it. That was the point. Only the true non-believer would really take me up on it. Anybody else is an agnostic. Disagree. Some simply don't care. I don't believe there is a name for us. I might add that I believe there was a creation and that some cause unknown was responsible. If you want to call that a "creator", fine by me. However, I reject completely the belief that this "creator" takes any personal interest in my life, or that of anyone else, or intervenes constructively or destructively in the affairs of men. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites blondeflyer7 0 #44 July 9, 2002 Who's to say who's right or wrong...... what I mean is that judge not lest ye be judged right!!! I know there is a spirit out there that has been with me in hard times!!!! I will never put down a belief though!! Because that would be wrong!!! Believe in the spirit that talks to your heart!!!!! It WILL listen! I promise! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MarkM 0 #45 July 9, 2002 QuoteDisagree. Some simply don't care. I don't believe there is a name for us. I might add that I believe there was a creation and that some cause unknown was responsible. If you want to call that a "creator", fine by me. However, I reject completely the belief that this "creator" takes any personal interest in my life, or that of anyone else, or intervenes constructively or destructively in the affairs of men. Yeah, that pretty much sums it up for me too. The only thing I know for sure is that sooner or later we all find out. Just hope it doesn't turn out like that South Park episode... Hell Initiation Director: "The correct answer was the Morman religion, yes the Morman religion." Christians, Jews, etc: "Ahhhh. Ohhh" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JJohnson 0 #46 July 9, 2002 Again, by definition, if you believe in anything other than random chance, you are agnostic. Because you are questioning the reason of who what why. Which is my point. And you do care to some extent or we would not be having this debate in the first place. You would have never responded to it at all. There is no burden of proof amigo. There ain't no proof I can offer to you that would hold up. You know that and I know that. My entire rant was to question an atheist's conviction. By your admission, you ain't one. Whether you agree on a definition of agnostic don't really matter. Peace. JJJJ "Call me Darth Balls" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyhawk 2 #47 July 9, 2002 you can have my soul to , dont worry about payment, hmm second thougth $1 Us could be me a ferrari in australia, ah to much effort just give a dollar to some kid on the street. 1. ques if you own my soul and kill lots of people after selling it will you go to hell as well???? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Schroeder 0 #48 July 9, 2002 Seriuosly man, think about this: Why does the belief in a soul automatically constitute a belief (etc.) in God? Answer me that and I'll be the nosticist agnostic in this room. Until then, I don't even care about the "definition of agnostic" cuz it don't apply. If I ventured in the slipstream; Between the via-ducts of your dreams.......could you find me? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wildblue 4 #49 July 9, 2002 QuoteSeriuosly man, think about this: Why does the belief in a soul automatically constitute a belief (etc.) in God? I think a belief in a soul does require a belief in a god. Maybe God, a collection of gods, a higher power, The Force, a Prime Mover.... something. A soul is not a physical thing - if you believe you have a soul, and that it continues after your physical body is gone, then in what place/plane/time does it continue? Where did it come from? Did we develope a soul through years of evolution? There has to be some kind of higher power or higher place where your soul exists and/or was created. That's how I see it anyway... I could be wrong. it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Muenkel 0 #50 July 9, 2002 OK, I have stayed out of this controversial thread, because I have taken part in too many of them. However, being the New Yorker that I am, I will make one comment. Jeff has OWNED this thread. I really read every post without judgement and by far Jeff has made the best argument. Just my $1.00...uh I mean 2 cents. _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
Schroeder 0 #32 July 8, 2002 I'm not saying there's no god, hell, I wouldn't be surprised if there were, but in order for me to suppose that, I also have to be willing to suppose that there might _not_ be a god too. After that, which ever direction you take in your faith, (either that there is a god, or there isn't) is no longer is based on facts, it's not provable, it's not quantifiable. It's exactly that, just faith. And that's fine. Fine once you backtrack the origin of your faith, and can see where it departs a provable logic. I'm absolutely with you on the faith aspect, as I have faith too of a different type, but I can admit that I have no proof. Logic or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JJohnson 0 #33 July 8, 2002 I'll use whatever makes sense to me right or wrong....until I can be shown my error. You have not done that yet. Don't take this personal, I don't care what you believe. I don't nit pick a damn thing. The simple fact is, I believe...in something and I am willing to defend it, even though I lack concrete proof. You claim to not believe and have no logic to support that either. I'm happy with this if you are. My price still stands however. I can't afford a hundred bucks, but if I could I'd gladly donate it to a good charity. Besides if I gave you a hundred, than every other heathen would want a hundred............. Where would it stop. If you want to call it quits, just say it: I don't believe in a God, I renounce the entire concept as foolish and I don't think I have a soul; and if anyone were dunb enough to buy it from me I'd sell it for whatever I could get, because I'm an atheist. You do this and I'll respect your choice whether I greee or not. JJJJ "Call me Darth Balls" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JJohnson 0 #34 July 8, 2002 Meathorse, give me the address and I'll send you the buck. I think you shoulda held out for a side of fries though. Yeah, I've been called stubborn a time or two. My point wasn't to prove anything, just to see if any of the people thaty questioned the topic were really as atheist as they thought. JJJJ "Call me Darth Balls" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
favaks 0 #35 July 8, 2002 Quote even though I lack concrete proof. You claim to not believe and have no logic to support that either. I'm happy with this if you are. You don't understand the nature of Atheism at all. There are two types, weak and strong atheism. A weak atheist has NO believe in god. This does not imply believing or not believing. A strong atheist believes that there is no god, because there is no sufficient evidence. The burden of proof is on the believers. favaks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JJohnson 0 #36 July 8, 2002 I'm sorry I must have been mistaken, I was only going by the dictionary version of Atheist/Agnostic. I was unaware there were sects or cults of them!! Well you learn something new everyday. The burden of proof thing sounds too much like legal speak and I don't believe in Lawyers..only cause I have not seen any proof of an equal justice system. JJJJ "Call me Darth Balls" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #37 July 8, 2002 Never really beleived in God, because really, why do I need one? But free will's another thing, I choose to believe I have that(and if I don't, well then I really didn't make a choice, now did I?). And if I have free will while a rock doesn't, then there's something to me beyond flesh and the energy that animates it. Wanna buy souls? What makes you think people have the ability to sell it? Might as well try to buy the energy I'm shedding off as I type this. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,691 #38 July 8, 2002 >And if I have free will while a rock doesn't, then there's something to > me beyond flesh and the energy that animates it. A rock has no free will? Heck, a uranium atom has free will - it will decay at some point, and no one can predict when. One of the neat discoveries in physics in the past few decades is that not only are some things hard to know, some things are impossible to know. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pdj6p 0 #39 July 8, 2002 Bill did you just say that you don't know everything? Death is so permanant, and I'm just not ready for that kind of committment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JJohnson 0 #40 July 9, 2002 Sorry man, that was not the point. You don't know if you have a sould or not. But if you do, you probably would not want to sell it or take the chance on it. That was the point. Only the true non-believer would really take me up on it. Anybody else is an agnostic. JJJJ "Call me Darth Balls" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,819 #41 July 9, 2002 Mr. Johnson - I have no reason to prove the non-existence of a God or a pantheon of Gods. It simply doesn't interest me enough to devote a lot of time to the topic. If you want to claim the existence of something, the burden of proof is on you, not on me. I don't have to believe in a supernatural being in order to lead a good and clean life. Your mileage may vary. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #42 July 9, 2002 Quote7th Holy Church of the Casa 212 heya! now theres a religion i could really get behind. i assume of course you have a working relationship with the brotherhood of Otters, Skyvans and DC3's ?____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,819 #43 July 9, 2002 QuoteSorry man, that was not the point. You don't know if you have a sould or not. But if you do, you probably would not want to sell it or take the chance on it. That was the point. Only the true non-believer would really take me up on it. Anybody else is an agnostic. Disagree. Some simply don't care. I don't believe there is a name for us. I might add that I believe there was a creation and that some cause unknown was responsible. If you want to call that a "creator", fine by me. However, I reject completely the belief that this "creator" takes any personal interest in my life, or that of anyone else, or intervenes constructively or destructively in the affairs of men. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blondeflyer7 0 #44 July 9, 2002 Who's to say who's right or wrong...... what I mean is that judge not lest ye be judged right!!! I know there is a spirit out there that has been with me in hard times!!!! I will never put down a belief though!! Because that would be wrong!!! Believe in the spirit that talks to your heart!!!!! It WILL listen! I promise! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #45 July 9, 2002 QuoteDisagree. Some simply don't care. I don't believe there is a name for us. I might add that I believe there was a creation and that some cause unknown was responsible. If you want to call that a "creator", fine by me. However, I reject completely the belief that this "creator" takes any personal interest in my life, or that of anyone else, or intervenes constructively or destructively in the affairs of men. Yeah, that pretty much sums it up for me too. The only thing I know for sure is that sooner or later we all find out. Just hope it doesn't turn out like that South Park episode... Hell Initiation Director: "The correct answer was the Morman religion, yes the Morman religion." Christians, Jews, etc: "Ahhhh. Ohhh" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JJohnson 0 #46 July 9, 2002 Again, by definition, if you believe in anything other than random chance, you are agnostic. Because you are questioning the reason of who what why. Which is my point. And you do care to some extent or we would not be having this debate in the first place. You would have never responded to it at all. There is no burden of proof amigo. There ain't no proof I can offer to you that would hold up. You know that and I know that. My entire rant was to question an atheist's conviction. By your admission, you ain't one. Whether you agree on a definition of agnostic don't really matter. Peace. JJJJ "Call me Darth Balls" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyhawk 2 #47 July 9, 2002 you can have my soul to , dont worry about payment, hmm second thougth $1 Us could be me a ferrari in australia, ah to much effort just give a dollar to some kid on the street. 1. ques if you own my soul and kill lots of people after selling it will you go to hell as well???? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Schroeder 0 #48 July 9, 2002 Seriuosly man, think about this: Why does the belief in a soul automatically constitute a belief (etc.) in God? Answer me that and I'll be the nosticist agnostic in this room. Until then, I don't even care about the "definition of agnostic" cuz it don't apply. If I ventured in the slipstream; Between the via-ducts of your dreams.......could you find me? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildblue 4 #49 July 9, 2002 QuoteSeriuosly man, think about this: Why does the belief in a soul automatically constitute a belief (etc.) in God? I think a belief in a soul does require a belief in a god. Maybe God, a collection of gods, a higher power, The Force, a Prime Mover.... something. A soul is not a physical thing - if you believe you have a soul, and that it continues after your physical body is gone, then in what place/plane/time does it continue? Where did it come from? Did we develope a soul through years of evolution? There has to be some kind of higher power or higher place where your soul exists and/or was created. That's how I see it anyway... I could be wrong. it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #50 July 9, 2002 OK, I have stayed out of this controversial thread, because I have taken part in too many of them. However, being the New Yorker that I am, I will make one comment. Jeff has OWNED this thread. I really read every post without judgement and by far Jeff has made the best argument. Just my $1.00...uh I mean 2 cents. _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites