The vultures are circling...

[billvon 2,462]

>Let the historians correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the only
> alternative to that a full scale sea-based invasion of Japan? A-la
> Normandy? Which would have killed millions of Japanese "civilians"
> (which would indubitably participate in the fighting)? I may be wrong,
> but I think Truman chose the lesser of the two evils.

That is, of course, a guess, but I'll go along with it. It undoubtedly ended the war sooner. Nevertheless, we should be careful about trumpeting "Anyone who uses CBN weapons on civilians should be deposed!" It will be a long, long time (I hope!) before anyone matches the number of people we killed with nuclear weapons.

And let's say we had a good reason for that bombing. Does that mean that Hussein is off the hook if he says that killing 10,000 Kurds with poison gas saved 20,000 of his soldiers, who would be killed putting down the unrest? I don't think it does.

At some point we are going to have to play by the same rules as the rest of the world. There will come a day when we are no longer the world's only superpower. On that day, we better hope and pray that the UN works, and that ambitious nations cannot just bypass the UN on their way to their objective - because some day that objective may be us.

[Push 0]

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kill one youre a murderer, kill a million youre a conquerer

Whats your point dude?

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And let's say we had a good reason for that bombing. Does that mean that Hussein is off the hook if he says that killing 10,000 Kurds with poison gas saved 20,000 of his soldiers, who would be killed putting down the unrest? I don't think it does.

Good point. Again, the next is only a guess on my part, but Truman tried to win the war with conventional means and failed. Did Hussein try? Or did he just fire the rockets?

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At some point we are going to have to play by the same rules as the rest of the world. There will come a day when we are no longer the world's only superpower. On that day, we better hope and pray that the UN works, and that ambitious nations cannot just bypass the UN on their way to their objective - because some day that objective may be us.

Well, there was a UN resolution for Iraq to lose its weapons of mass destruction and to allow inspectors. I don't believe he complied. As long as Mr Bush does not go gung-ho and let'er'rip (sorry, I've never been to Texas, hope I haven't offended anyone from there), aren't we enforcing UN resolutions?

[goose491 0]

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kill one youre a murderer, kill a million youre a conquerer

Kill 'em all.......... OOoooooooh You're a God!!!!

-Megadeath

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[SpeedRacer 1]

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Truman tried to win the war with conventional means and failed.

well, actually, by the beginning of 1945 we were NOT failing to win the war with conventional means...in fact, it was by that point, pretty obvious that the Allies were going to win.

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[SpeedRacer 1]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61903-2002Oct21.html Click here to read about more Bush distortions.

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[AggieDave 6]

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How many civilians did we kill during WWII with just two bombs, simply to make the war end faster

How many American and Ally lives did we save by doing that? Estimates are at over 500,000! If it comes between American lives and some other country's lives, I'm picking Americans. Yes that's one sided, yes, that's not nice, but damnit I'm an American and very damn proud of it!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[diver123 0]

You guys are ALL a little optimistic on the impact a war with Iraq would have on the U.S., let alone the World, at this point! I don't see this as an opportunity for benefit or even as a bi-product, it's WAR... This is simply a pre-cursor to something much bigger than everyone has invisioned in their "personal-agenda" oriented view of the whole situation. (referencing the powers-to-be). There isn't going to be any economic evolution, or growth of a nation, or the people of the world coming together as one to live in peace and harmony! I see quite the contrary. Look, I served in the military and am a life giving supporter of freedom and liberty, but only as a way of life NOT as an excuse to further power or to legitimize the absolute insanity that seems to be taking over in the governing bodies. We've gone from a commonality of "innocent until proven guilty" to punishment before the crime to prevent it! Anyone see Minority Report... Who appointed the U.S. the world's police force anyway? I just think it's gone one step too far this time, and personally I'm scared to death of the long-term outcome... Since the cuban missile crisis, this world has been struggling to maintain a balance of terror in order to avoid what we all know would be the end of our world as we know it, nuclear war. So why now do we see it justified to disregard that concern and start tipping the scales ourselves?

"pull high! It's lower than you think..."

[SpeedRacer 1]

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You guys are ALL a little optimistic on the impact a war with Iraq would have on the U.S., let alone the World, at this point!

we guys are ALL a little optimistic? Who do you mean when you say "you guys" At least half of the people on this thread seem to be opposed to war w/ Iraq.

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[diver123 0]

Sorry, maybe I should've been a little more clear on the target audience.

"pull high! It's lower than you think..."

[goose491 0]

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You guys are ALL a little optimistic on the impact a war with Iraq would have on the U.S., let alone the World, at this point! I don't see this as an opportunity for benefit or even as a bi-product, it's WAR...?

WAR!....Oh....Good God!...What iiiiis it good fo?
Absolutely NOTHING!!

Except of course:
-the industrial revolution
-the information age
-the computer chip
-nuclear power
-the jet and putting a man on the moon
-the internet
-freedom
-just plain givin hicks somewhere to send their unproductive teenaged sons
-extra land?
-Dare I go on?

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[Push 0]

I think a war on Iraq would be a stupid thing to do. If the UN needs to enforce a resolution, there are other countries. Besides, enforcing weapons inspections is not what Bush is out to do. He explicitly said he wants Husseins head on a plate. Now, that may be a nice proposition or not, but this is not a good time. The US economy is unstable. It may not be in recession exactly, but it's teetering on the brink. The stock market is still recovering from the TelCo implosion. Hussein seems to be nothing but a harmless megalomaniac at this stage, if that. There are better uses for the money, and there are for sure better uses for the human resources it will entail. I'm not even going into the oil. Whether or not that is Bush's primary concern is unclear. I sure as hell hope not, but I have my doubts, just like 90% of the people on this thread it seems...

Bush Jr in general is, in my opinion, not the greatest president America ever had, to put it mildly. But that is a discussion for another topic.

If he wants to protect Americans, why doesn't he address some real dangers, like crime rate and illiteracy, instead of feeding a troll like Hussein?

[diver123 0]

It is far too easy to see the side of benefit when you've been a part of the winning team all these years. True, there could be arguments made to support your list of benefits that stem "solely" from war? (said with sarcasm)
Let's stop for a moment and consider the alternative... We, as a country, are getting dangerously close to isolating ourselves from the necessary support that we've enjoyed from other countries that has allowed all this progress, whether it was offered willingly or bullied... Or should I say tolerance? In any case, this "one step too far" case that I'm making is directly linked to the proverbial toes that we've begun stepping on with absolutely no regard for what repercussions it may have in the very near future for us as a collective people and world power. If I'm not mistaken, the U.S. does not have the support of the U.N. (the United Nations which was originally established to provide an equal and fair governing body for the world to prevent this kind of thing in the first place). So we say it's fine this time cause our opposition, on it's own, doesn't stand much of a chance to a military force as powerful as the one we possess. -Isn't that, in it's own right, also a breech of policy sanctioned by the U.N.? Who's keeping us inline?- I know all of you intelligent people out there have a very good understanding of what happens to bully's when they get out of control. Afterall, isn't that how America was born in the first place? Who's to say that the opposition we're manufacturing today won't be powerful enough to turn the tables tomorrow??? I'm just saying that if we keep making these kinds of rash decisions, we're going to find ourselves in a situation where there may not be any options for anything other than a World War...

"pull high! It's lower than you think..."

[goose491 0]

Amen to that brother.

Bullies suck! I wasn't implying that these things (among others) are due "solely" to war but it sure did speed things up. Woa! Nothing brings a Country together like fighting abroad. I agree that the U.S. has lost a lot of the support it once had from around the globe. The fact is nobody wants them to police the planet but they keep doing it anyway. The other fact is that the only reason they are even thinking about war on Iraq is for the oil. If I were Dubya, I'd be in quite a pickle right now.

Power to Canada! We should rule the planet.
Oops, did I let that get out?

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[Kennedy 0]

Right, because the Washington Post would never distort the truth. Ever. Honest.

blah.

How many of us know all the infobits and technobits involved in out national security? ANyone who says me is wrong or lying.

Media speculation does not equal factual information

Being the libertarian I am, I couldn't care less what they're doing over there until someone asks me for help.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[diver123 0]

"Being the libertarian I am, I couldn't care less what they're doing over there until someone asks me for help." Then why respond to a post unless you're directly addressed???

"pull high! It's lower than you think..."

[Kennedy 0]

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Then why respond to a post unless you're directly addressed???

The thread caught my interest, and I noticed the reference to the Post. Plus, since the federal governement is in my business for the moment, what they do affects me.

Besides, it's just my two cents. What got you so alarmed?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[diver123 0]

didn't mean any disrespect. I just noticed I hit the wrong face... it was supposed to be a to indicate that I was messing around. Sorry for the confusion.

"pull high! It's lower than you think..."

[Kennedy 0]

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... it was supposed to be a

OK, I gotcha. The love is back in the room.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[goose491 0]

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I just noticed I hit the wrong face... it was supposed to

YOURS!!!

J/K LOL

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[billvon 2,462]

-the industrial revolution

I'd credit factory owners in Great Britain and Europe for that one. They built the factories.

-the information age

I'd credit the designers of the 4004 (and their successors) for that.

-the computer chip

See above.

-nuclear power

Einstein came from one of our enemies during WWI and WWII!! Good thing we didn't kill him, which is the purpose of war (kill your enemy and destroy his country.) So in this case, the FAILURE of war to meet its objectives helped bring about nuclear power.

-the jet and putting a man on the moon

Again, the failure of the allies to destroy Peenemunde during WWII is the primary reason men got to the moon.

I won't go on, as it's getting silly. Most people in the US learned a long time ago that war is a last resort, and is the worst thing there is. Trumpeting its benefits is like telling someone with breast cancer how cool tumor biology is, and how good breast cancer is for US research facilities.

[billvon 2,462]

>Good point. Again, the next is only a guess on my part, but Truman
> tried to win the war with conventional means and failed.

Most historians would disagree with your premise that we were failing to win the war with conventional means when we nuked Japan.

>Did Hussein try? Or did he just fire the rockets?

Oh, he tried very hard. He killed something like 180,000 Kurds with conventional means; only 5000 or so were with chemical weapons, by most estimates.

>Well, there was a UN resolution for Iraq to lose its weapons of mass
> destruction and to allow inspectors. I don't believe he complied.

The UN team pulled out due to problems with access; Hussein recently allowed them back. I would agree that if he _continues_ to deny access to inspectors, we should take action against him, backed up by the UN. It will not be a good solution, but I think it will be the best of several bad solutions.

[skreamer 1]

Good point about Einstein. Also, where would NASA be without Von Braun? I doubt Armstrong and co. would've made it to the moon without his rockets.

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Most historians would disagree with your premise that we were failing to win the war with conventional means when we nuked Japan.

I'm not arguing that the war was not won already. Of course it was. But Japan did not stop fighting. If the Allies pulled out, it would attack another country. The war was won, but it wasn't over until Japan was defeated.

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Oh, he tried very hard. He killed something like 180,000 Kurds with conventional means; only 5000 or so were with chemical weapons, by most estimates.

I stand corrected. This makes it a very complicated moral issue and I simply don't know enough about it.

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The UN team pulled out due to problems with access; Hussein recently allowed them back. I would agree that if he _continues_ to deny access to inspectors, we should take action against him, backed up by the UN. It will not be a good solution, but I think it will be the best of several bad solutions.

Exactly my point. Enforcing legal UN resoltions - good. Whacking a fairly minor neusance by using a ton of resources better placed elsewhere to gain popularity - bad.

[billvon 2,462]

>Also, where would NASA be without Von Braun?

Yep, that's what I was referring to with Peenemunde; that's where Von Braun's base was. Did you know, BTW, that the first rockets in the US space race were modified German V-2's? For years that basic shape would symbolize modern rocketry.