What's the freekin' deal with conspiracy theories?

[airgord 1]

It's all an illusion- Donald Shimoda (Illusions, Richard Bach)

[Cloudseeder 0]

"In the interest of learning something, can you explain how it wasn't the fire and design/structure and lack of fire retardant whacamacallit on the top floors?"
Fire retardent watchimicallit? LOL Michelle!
The fire retardent used around the vertical steel columns of the World Trade Center was "vermiculite".
Some sites claim that it was "plastered" on to the columns.
This would be inconsistent with normal construction practises. As a matter of fact it would be near to impossible to "plaster" or to spread onto steel with a trowel any vermiculite mixture.
No Michelle, the normal method of fire proofing steel columns would be to erect wooden forms around those steel columns and then pour into the forms 8 -12 inches of the vermiculite(a light weight concrete mixture) .
Interior to the forms a grid of reinforcing steel is placed which provides additional strength to the concrete/ vermiculite mixture. With this "rebar" properly placed you may get some cracking of the vermiculite, but large failures /voids would be few and far between in normal conditions.
I can't say how the reinforced Vermiculite may be affected by a major impact as experienced during the attacks of 9/11.
I can tell you with close to 100% certainty that any web site which states that the vermiculite was "plastered" on to the steel columns is less than credible.

"Treetop" a.k.a Cloud Seeder

[Cloudseeder 0]

"I could easily believe that the US government might want to fake a moon landing. I also honestly think it would cheaper and easier to actually go to the moon than pull off that sort of deception on that scale. "
Uhmm..., OK Bill,
Maybe it's just my memory that is so far off.
I'm sure you are right and that we did set foot on the moon.
I must be wrong in my memory of visiting the Smithsonian as a young (12 yr old)child in 1972 and marveling at the exhibit of the Apollo capsule (the underside of which was encased in plexiglass to preserve the moon dust).
I'm a little older now,
Not quite as naive,
So how did moon dust collect on the re-entry capsules base? That capsule never landed on the moon.
How did this dust remain on the bottom of the capsule during the high temps of re-entry?
Where is that moon dust now Bill? What happened to the exhibit?
The Nation lies to a troop of boy scouts LOL!
You think they'd think twice about lying to you?
Cloud Seeder

[quade 3]

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Care to explain that or provide a link to any civil or structural engineer who attempts to explain that?

I believe I already have -- twice.

Are you just repeating the requests for entertainment purposes? I know you're smart enough to click and read a link.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Cloudseeder 0]

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Care to explain that or provide a link to any civil or structural engineer who attempts to explain that?

"I believe I already have -- twice."
C'mon Mr Quade, You're also smart enough to realize that the links you've provided don't begin to explain how the tower which took the lesser hit collapsed way before the tower that took a more substantial strike.
Tell me Mr Quade, is it suprising to you the number of seats not filled on these cross continent flights?
Are you suprised that the airlines didn't cancell a cross continent flight of only 58 passengers when the plane in normal configuration would carry 245? An aircraft less than 25% full leaving on a nonstop cross country flight?
Hmm.
Something stinks in the USA.
Could be my Tevas,
"Treetop" a.k.a. Cloud Seeder

[quade 3]

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Tell me Mr Quade, is it suprising to you the number of seats not filled on these cross continent flights?

Are you suprised that the airlines didn't cancell a cross continent flight of only 58 passengers when the plane in normal configuration would carry 245? An aircraft less than 25% full leaving on a nonstop cross country flight?

Don --

Not surprising to me at all. Then again, I know that the airlines frequently and regularly fly with less than the maximum number of passengers in their aircraft. Sometimes it's because there isn't demand for a full flight, but a lot of times it's because they simply need to reposition the aircraft to another airport so their entire system continues to work. Like I said, not surprising at all.

Also, there is a fairly well accepted theory that the terrorist specifically targeted these flights so as to meet the least amount of resistance from the passengers on-board. So, again, not surprising at all.

As for the links I've previously provided. Actually, I do believe they explain the collapses quite well -- otherwise I never would have posted them.

You're grasping at straws.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 2,471]

>I must be wrong in my memory of visiting the Smithsonian as a
> young (12 yr old)child in 1972 and marveling at the exhibit of the
> Apollo capsule (the underside of which was encased in plexiglass to
> preserve the moon dust).

You are wrong. There was never any "moon dust" on the heat shield of any of the Apollo capsules, nor did NASA (or any government agencies) claim that there was. No agency ever claimed that the CM or SM landed on the moon. No agency ever claimed that an LM returned intact from the moon either.

So while it is possible to create your own conspiracy theories by making them up when you're 12, it's tough to sustain them in practice.

[billvon 2,471]

>No Michelle, the normal method of fire proofing steel columns would
> be to erect wooden forms around those steel columns and then pour
> into the forms 8 -12 inches of the vermiculite(a light weight concrete
> mixture) .

It's usually sprayed on. I watched such an application on a local building; the application was pretty quick. For more info check out:

http://www.lafgroup.com/1-i-STEEL-Beams-Columns-Angles.htm

"Vermitex ‘AF’ is a Gypsum-Vermiculite blend plus trace chemical additives which has been formulated to provide passive fire protection to elements of building construction on a variety of backgrounds. It does not contain asbestos or other forms of fibre.

Application may be carried out by hand but preferably by mechanical means to interior steel, concrete and other substrates generally without the aid of mechanical reinforcement (1). This Data Sheet addresses application to Structural Steel elements.

Vermitex® ‘AF’ is a mill-mixed compound that can be sprayed onto substrates requiring protection at the corresponding thickness stipulated by the Manufacturer. "

[billvon 2,471]

>Paul , can you explain how two different buildings, impacted at
> different angles, speeds and by different loads, at different levels ,
> each fell as if by a designed implosion?

Because they imploded when the central supports of each building were weakened by fire. That's how professional demolition companies bring down buildings. (They use explosives instead of fire but same effect.)

>Paul, If the collapse of either tower was due to an impact,.. wouldn't
> you expect at least one of them to topple somewhat sideways?

The collapse wasn't due to impact. The energy of the impacts was around .007 kilotons total worth of energy; the fuel contained 1.5 kilotons worth of energy. Even if only 1/4 of the fuel ended up burning in the building, that is by far the more destructive force.

>Conspiracy? As painful as it may be for many of us, watch the
> buildings and especially the radio tower fall again. Conspiracy
> certainly can not be ruled out.

Neither can Lex Luthor, or a mistake by Wile E. Coyote in his endless attempts to catch the Road Runner. Reasonable people discard absurd explanations, though.

[AndyMan 7]

The fact that there's some whackos in the world who come up with this stuff doesn't surprise me. There's allways been whackos, there always will be whackos.

What never ceases to amaze me is the number of otherwise sane and "normal" people who eat this stuff up. Do people really not understand the concept of critical thinking? Or is it maybe that people are so afraid of reality that they seek out less frightening explanations?

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[quade 3]

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Or is it maybe that people are so afraid of reality that they seek out less frightening explanations?

That is the main purpose of mythology isn't it? Unfortunately for the truly delusional, mythology is reality.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Cloudseeder 0]

"That is the main purpose of mythology isn't it? Unfortunately for the truly delusional, mythology is reality. "
Just a second here Mr. Quade.
Do you mean to tell me that you believe that the legends handed down from generation to generation in the ancient world weren't based on factual information? Sure the reporting of these factual accounts may suffer due to the then limited knowledge base but do you believe that similiar accounts from around the world concerning all sorts of items from Giants to "Gods" were just all made up?
That these accounts are all just fantasy?
That these very similar accounts from around the world at a time when interglobal communication was near to impossible are actually just "myths" made up to confuse and control the population?
If that's your theory , Mr. Quade, ..I'd count you amongst the conspiracy theorists.
Cloud Seeder

[Cloudseeder 0]

>Paul , can you explain how two different buildings, impacted at
> different angles, speeds and by different loads, at different levels ,
> each fell as if by a designed implosion?
"Because they imploded when the central supports of each building were weakened by fire. That's how professional demolition companies bring down buildings. (They use explosives instead of fire but same effect.)"
Mr. Von , Is there any reason you can think of why demolition contractors use explosives instead of fire?
I'll help to start you out, Explosive charges can be exactlly placed and their effect calculated where as the destructive force of fire is hard to control to any precise advantage. Certainly it would be near to impossible to harness a fire which would melt through 20 steel columns at a precisely simultaneous moment.
But that is what we are expected to believe. That the random fires created by an aircraft impact to a structure brought forth a fire which melted through the steel colums supporting this building ,melted through all of the supporting steel at a simultaneous moment in time.
Oh! Not just once Mr. Von ,but Twice... in the same day and within the same hour... Hmmn.
Maybe you're right.
CloudSeeder

[quade 3]

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Do you mean to tell me that you believe that the legends handed down from generation to generation in the ancient world weren't based on factual information? Sure the reporting of these factual accounts may suffer due to the then limited knowledge base but do you believe that similiar accounts from around the world concerning all sorts of items from Giants to "Gods" were just all made up?

I disagree with your asertation that there is a similarity "concerning all sorts of items from Giants to 'Gods'." Since, for instance, the creation myths of the Egyptians and Inuit differ so much. But, uh, yeah, that pretty much sums it up.

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That these accounts are all just fantasy?

That these very similar accounts from around the world at a time when interglobal communication was near to impossible are actually just "myths" made up to confuse and control the population?

Again, I discount your assertation of similarity, but again, uh, yeah, that pretty much sums it up.

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If that's your theory , Mr. Quade, ..I'd count you amongst the conspiracy theorists.

Again, I see no conspiracy whatsoever since the similarities you do not, to me, exist. For instance, some religions have a multitude of gods, others have one, still others have none.

Can you give me a couple of good examples of, let's say, myths that you feel are are some how universal and therefore hold some sort of ultimate truth?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Cloudseeder 0]

>I must be wrong in my memory of visiting the Smithsonian as a
> young (12 yr old)child in 1972 and marveling at the exhibit of the
> Apollo capsule (the underside of which was encased in plexiglass to
> preserve the moon dust).
"You are wrong. There was never any "moon dust" on the heat shield of any of the Apollo capsules,"
Of course I know this Mr. Von, however I also know that when I visited the National Museum as a child I did witness the bottom of a "space capsule" encased in plexiglass and I did read the plaque next to it which stated the plexiglass was there to preserve the moon dust. I observed some type of dust between the plexiglass and the capsule.
"nor did NASA (or any government agencies) claim that there was. "
Is the Smithsonian run by a government agency? If so your statement and my recollection are just not compatible.
"So while it is possible to create your own conspiracy theories by making them up when you're 12, it's tough to sustain them in practice"
In shorter form "who am I going to believe, the Government or my own *lying eyes*.
Hey is this the same governmental body who knew about the attack on Pearl Harbor way in advance and took no actions to prevent the attack? Because the attack would solve some problems?
The same govermnent that created the secret triangle of money ,drugs,and weapons violating our own laws and policies?
The same government which supported Noriega and helped him in his drug dealing and then later launched an offensive against him and tried him for the same drug dealing?
Is it Mr. Von, The same government which paid millions of dollars to one "Osama Bin Laden" as a CIA operative?
The same government which convienently can't find him now?
You know Mr. Von,
If I was smart enough to learn to fly a jumbo jet and to get myself and all my fellow conspirators enough false ID and documentation to board US planes,and smart enough to plan a brilliant ,feindish, sucessful attack against three different high profile targets and to figure out the logistics to pull it all together so that each target is hit within an hour of the others,
If I'm wily enough to hold a jetload full of passengers at bay with only a box cutter , if I'm cunning enough to get that weapon through the metal detector,
Do you really believe that I'm stupid enough to leave so much evidence behind in a rental car at Logan Airport? An instructional video on how to fly an airplane and a copy of the Koran? I'm suprised there wasn't a letter from Osama himself spurring us on and wishing us the best of luck with our mission!
No Bill , If I was smart enough to put all that together there wouldn't be that type of evidence left so easily behind.
Unless of course, I wanted you to believe that I was someone I was not!
"Treetop" a.k.a. CloudSeeder

[quade 3]

But what would be the purpose of anonymous terrorism?

If the goal of a terrorist act is to have someone change what they are doing, how can they possibly know what to change if they don't know who sent the message?

In order for OBL to get his point across, which I believe is something like, get the U.S. out of the Arab world, then he must out of necessity leave at least a few clues.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[indyz 1]

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If I'm wily enough to hold a jetload full of passengers at bay with only a box cutter , if I'm cunning enough to get that weapon through the metal detector

Before September 11th, I wouldn't have attacked a hijacker with a box cutter, especially if they claimed to have explosives. Most airplane hijackings end well for the passengers, and I wouldn't risk killing a plane load of people when I knew that I would likely survive if I just waited.

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Do you really believe that I'm stupid enough to leave so much evidence behind in a rental car at Logan Airport? An instructional video on how to fly an airplane and a copy of the Koran? I'm suprised there wasn't a letter from Osama himself spurring us on and wishing us the best of luck with our mission!

They wanted people to know that they did it! Terrorism doesn't work if nobody knows who was responsible for the act.

[Cloudseeder 0]

"But what would be the purpose of anonymous terrorism? "
A better question may be Mr. Quade, what was the goal of the attacks on September 11th?
How would these attacks benefit Osama and company?
The fact is that the Taliban had a nice little gig goin' on over there in Afganistan , being the rulers and all!
No Paul, dropping a few buildings and killing thousands of innocents wouldn't benefit Osama or his adopted dupes.
Interesting to me is that after every terroristic action here in the US the *suspect* is already set up for indictment.
Immediately after the bombing in Oklahoma City, Timothy McVeigh was arrested and the press already had all kinds of info on him.
It was less than an hour after the strike on the World Trade Center that Osama was billed as the villian du jour. Amazingly quick and effecient detective work by those who were caught totally unaware as to the planned attacks, no?
Speaking of which, have I mentioned that I visited my local FSDO the day before the attacks?
Yes, that is very true. Also true is that the day before the attacks I was subjected to increased security measures at FSDO Atlanta . Security much higher than on any of my previous visits.(Interesting!) But the Gov had no idea! Hmmn...
"If the goal of a terrorist act is to have someone change what they are doing, how can they possibly know what to change if they don't know who sent the message?"
How about Paul, if the goal was to fool the American people into relinquishing their Constitutional Rights?
If that was the goal it has been quite a sucessful attack!
You do realize that the members of the present administration have sucessfully suspended the Right of Habeous Corpeous , don't you Paul?
Hey here's a snippet from the La Times where they are trying to go a little further with this;Atty. Gen. John Ashcroft's announced desire for camps for U.S. citizens he deems to be "enemy combatants" has moved him from merely being a political embarrassment to being a constitutional menace.
Ashcroft's plan, disclosed last week but little publicized, would allow him to order the indefinite incarceration of U.S. citizens and summarily strip them of their constitutional rights and access to the courts by declaring them enemy combatants.
The proposed camp plan should trigger immediate congressional hearings and reconsideration of Ashcroft's fitness for this important office. Whereas Al Qaeda is a threat to the lives of our citizens, Ashcroft has become a clear and present threat to our liberties.
"In order for OBL to get his point across, which I believe is something like, get the U.S. out of the Arab world, then he must out of necessity leave at least a few clues. "
Conversley, In order for the US to make legitimate claims of the right to self protection and the need of their presence in the Arab World, it would be necessary for them to leave a few clues which indict the Arabs for these atrocities.
So which is more likely, the Taliban called attention onto themselves and their great gig, or the US wanted to legitimatize their presence in the Oil producing portion of the world?
Cloud Seeder

[Cloudseeder 0]

"Before September 11th, I wouldn't have attacked a hijacker with a box cutter, especially if they claimed to have explosives. Most airplane hijackings end well for the passengers, and I wouldn't risk killing a plane load of people when I knew that I would likely survive if I just waited. "
Mr Indyz, if you witnessed a flight attendent getting her throat gutted open by a boxcutter armed assailant, would you take no action due to a threat of explosives??
Most airplane hijackings end well for the passengers Mr Indys?
Do you remember the body of one US serviceman being uncerimoniously dumped to the tarmack?
In the face of any armed attack how could you possibly sit back like unthinking cattle awaiting slaughter?
What? .. let me guess.. You hope for the best???At the hands of criminals you sit back and hope for the best? For some mercy? For the criminal who just announced that he will kill you if you so much as blink an eye to have a sudden change of heart?
What happened to the American Spirit? Where are the John Waynes?
The Duke didn't have any body piercings,
I can see and here him now in that situation,
"Let's Go!"
Cloud Seeder

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Do you really believe that I'm stupid enough to leave so much evidence behind in a rental car at Logan Airport? An instructional video on how to fly an airplane and a copy of the Koran? I'm suprised there wasn't a letter from Osama himself spurring us on and wishing us the best of luck with our mission!

They wanted people to know that they did it! Terrorism doesn't work if nobody knows who was responsible for the act.
--
Brian

[indyz 1]

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Immediately after the bombing in Oklahoma City, Timothy McVeigh was arrestend the press already had all kinds of info on him.

McVeigh was arrested because an alert state trooper pulled him over for driving a car without license plates, then noticed that he had a weapon in a shoulder holster underneath his windbreaker. Evidence linking him to the Ferderal Building was found in the car. If it was some grand conspiracy, Nichols have gone to the death chamber as well.

Edit: I just did some research and it was 3 days after McVeigh was arrested for carrying a concealed weapon that he was tied to the bombing.

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It was less than an hour after the strike on the World Trade Center that Osama was billed as the villian du jour. Amazingly quick and effecient detective work by those who were caught totally unaware as to the planned attacks, no?

I watched a lot of TV on September 11th, and I don't recall anybody in the government citing OBL or Al-Qaida as suspects. Please find me a source on this, unless the conspiracy has covered it up already.

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How about Paul, if the goal was to fool the American people into relinquishing their Constitutional Rights?

"If we give up such-and-such-right, then the terrorists have already won," is complete bullshit. In Al-Qaida's mind, they haven't won until every single person that they percieve as an enemy of Islam is dead. They could care less if the gov't taps everybody's phones, or even puts every American citizen in jail. They want us all dead. Period.

[AndyMan 7]

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I watched a lot of TV on September 11th, and I don't recall anybody in the government citing OBL or Al-Qaida as suspects. Please find me a source on this, unless the conspiracy has covered it up already

Quite correct. If I remember correctly, most of the rumors circulating on september 11 had the attacks blamed on a rebel palestinian group, not Al-Qaida.

Isn't revisionist history fun?

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[indyz 1]

I hope I wouldn't let the emotions of seeing one person die endager the rest of the passengers. Unless the Egyptians are attemping the rescue, you are very likely to walk away from a hijacking. Of course, if I heard from an operator on an air phone that terrorists had already crashed planes into buildings, I hope I would put two and two together and act.

This is the last I'm saying about this, as I'm afraid that I've accidentally dragged the thread away from the original topic. Feel free to start a new thread or take this up in PMs with me.

[Cloudseeder 0]

"McVeigh was arrested because an alert state trooper pulled him over for driving a car without license plates, then noticed that he had a weapon in a shoulder holster underneath his windbreaker. Evidence linking him to the Ferderal Building was found in the car."
LOL Mr. Indyz,
You expect me to believe that Timothy Mc'Veigh masterminded a plot to create a huge bomb and detonation device ,concealed it in a bright yellow moving van that the ATF agents never noticed parked right out front on the morning of the bombing as they scoured the bushes around the building looking for a bomb?
But then he was cruising along in a *getaway car* with no license plates? LOL!!
Like "Attention Please" "Please pull Me Over" ! "I have a gun under my clothing . I just killed countless good people but I won't draw my gun on you Mr. Officer! LOFL!
But I'm the one with the rediculous scenarios? C'mon Mr Indyz, criminals may be dumb but do you really believe that's what happened?
Cloud Seeder

[Cloudseeder 0]

" I hope I wouldn't let the emotions of seeing one person die endager the rest of the passengers. "
Well how about if you saw two flight attendants murdered Mr. Indyz, what about three ,or four?
At what point Mr Indyz are you going to stand up and attempt to put a stop to it?
Are you going to wait until it's your turn before you act??
Cloud Seeder

[indyz 1]

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But I'm the one with the rediculous scenarios? C'mon Mr Indyz, criminals may be dumb but do you really believe that's what happened?

You haven't actually given us a scenario beyond "government conspiracy." So, to answer your question, yes.

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Are you going to wait until it's your turn before you act??

Now we are off topic. If you would like to continue this side discussion, please start another thread or contact me via private messages.