Today's irony

[billvon 2,433]

>HELLO? Do you realize we are at war?

Could you point me to the congressional declaration of war? Against which country? Or is this a war like the war on drugs, the war on cancer and the war on AIDS?

>That is correct, if you did that then you would be breaking
> established laws and statues in the US . . . .

Please point out where it is a crime to send email to a foreign person asking them about Sarin. I have sent information internationally about how to build nuclear weapons; is that a crime? (it was a thread on DZ.com about whether N Korea could build nukes, and this forum is available worldwide.)

>Yes all those BAD things happened and look at how it ruined our
> country and way of life.

It did not because we learned from them and determined to never let them happen again. We have made mistakes in the past; it would be hard to claim otherwise.

>Oh wait, I forgot, the US IS a world power...I wonder how that
>happened?

By being the most productive country in the world.

>History cannot be forgotten, to do so will only ensure that we make
>the same mistakes.

Now that is exactly right! We should not make the same mistakes over and over, and the only way we can do that is to learn from the past.

>To rely on what happened in the past as a reason for not
>progressing and changing as country is absured. Change is
> inevitable and there will be good along with bad.

Again, exactly right. We _do_ change when we make mistakes, and there are enough good people in the US to recognize those mistakes and act on them. Sometimes that action takes the form of voting, sometimes political protest and demonstration; rarely, direct action (like the MLK nonviolent actions.)

I think we agree here more than we disagree. I agree that some privacy laws are going to get bent during a time like this; we should be careful to make sure that no more than are neccesary get bent, since we will probably not get them back. We've made mistakes in the past, but if we as a people keep a careful eye on what's going on in our government, and use the power of our vote to support what _we_ think is right, I think we have a good shot at not making the same mistakes over and over.

[billvon 2,433]

>Is any of this going to change under the new Homeland Security Act?
> NO ----- WHY? Because, as much as you think no one knows what
> you're doing, you've been an open book for years. Otherwise you
>wouldn't get so much junk mail, so much spam, etc.

I agree that you've been an open book, but there are very strict constitutional restrictions against using much of that information agaisnt you legally. Could I intercept an email that passes through a server I have? Yes. Would it hold up in court if I tried to use it? No. Can the phone company record my phone numbers, and sell the pattern of my calls to a marketing company? Yes. Can the police do the same thing to see if I'm buying drugs without a warrant? No.

> When you use your "savings" card at the grocery store, you don't
> think there's a data mining company that tailoring promotions to
> you based on whether you buy Doritos or Granola?

Again I agree, but fortunately there is a big difference between using information to send you junkmail and using information to put you in jail - at least in the eyes of the law. We've got pretty good protections in place now; we should keep an eye on them, especially with people like Poindexter in the picture.

[RevJim 0]

Couldn't help myself on this one, so here goes....

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I understand your point of view, I don't agree 100% that's all. Just what personal freedoms have I lost over the past 15 years?

-Does the Govt impose its will in determining what kind of car I drive? NO

Ever try and import a Lambroghini?

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-Does the Govt impose its will in determining where I live? NO

Tell that to the people who lived/owned land right here in my home town, where there now happens to be a US highway.

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-Does the Govt impose its will in who I see/socialize with? NO

Really? How many Arabic friends do you have? Do you think you are being monitored? What if you want to carry on a conversation/friendship with a nice female in Red China? Now what if you want to go visit her, or bring her here to visit you?

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-Does the Govt impose its will in what I buy at the grocery store? NO

FDA aside, how many items are NOT allowed to be sold in grocery stores? How many Farm Fresh items need to be bought at the farm, since the government will not allow the retail sale of them? What about people like me who LOVE venison. Ever try and BUY that meat?

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-Does the Govt impose its will in determining how I pursue my career? NO

Ever try and get a government job?

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-Does the Govt impose its will on how many children I may have (presuming I make that choice with a mate)? NO

Many have had tubes tied, nuts snipped, ect, by court order. Why? Welfare. Though I understand this, that still does not make it right.

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-Does the Govt impose its will on what I may read, write, vote, express, observe or demonstrate? NO

Read-How about those "banned in school" lists? When was the last time you saw anything by Mark Twain in the school systems? Write? HA! Freedom of the press stops at the government level.

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-Does the Govt impose its will on how late I sleep in on the weekend? NO

Give 'em time, they'll find a reason.

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-Does the Govt impose its will on what kind of beer I buy for the DZ? NO

that depends. I would love to buy some Shiner Bock for the DZ up here. Problem is, it's not available up here. I can't afford to drive all the way to Texas to get some. Can I order it and have them ship it? According to the government, NO.

It's your life, live it!
Karma
RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1

[freeflir29 0]

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Could I intercept an email that passes through a server I have? Yes. Would it hold up in court if I tried to use it? No

But someone could use info gained from those emails to find things that will....that's the problem.

[billvon 2,433]

>Ever try and import a Lambroghini?

You can buy a Lamborghini here - try Motorcars International in Springfield, MO. The government doesn't guarantee you a cheap or easy Lamborghini.

>Really? How many Arabic friends do you have?

Personally? 3. 1 Iranian, 1 guy from Kuwait and I don't know where the third guy is from other than the Middle East.

>FDA aside, how many items are NOT allowed to be sold in grocery
> stores?

Other than FDA and legal requirements (i.e. you can't sell pot) what grocery stores sell is pretty much up to them.

>Many have had tubes tied, nuts snipped, ect, by court order.

And some have been put to death by court order. Criminals lose their rights.

>Read-How about those "banned in school" lists? When was the last
> time you saw anything by Mark Twain in the school systems?

When I was in high school.

>Freedom of the press stops at the government level.

Because school systems don't carry books you like? You can publish anything you want; it is not up to the government to provide you with any book you want for free.

>I would love to buy some Shiner Bock for the DZ up here. Problem is,
> it's not available up here. I can't afford to drive all the way to Texas
> to get some. Can I order it and have them ship it? According to the
> government, NO.

I get beer shipped down here to San Diego from Montana. Got 30 cases for JFTC - no problems.

[RevJim 0]

Bill,
You, of all people, were the last one I would expect to use selective snipping in your reply.
That does not even deserve a response.

It's your life, live it!
Karma
RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1

[Gawain 0]

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Couldn't help myself on this one, so here goes....

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I understand your point of view, I don't agree 100% that's all. Just what personal freedoms have I lost over the past 15 years?

-Does the Govt impose its will in determining what kind of car I drive? NO

Ever try and import a Lambroghini?
Why import when you can go to several dealers across the US? Do a search, you'll find them.

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-Does the Govt impose its will in determining where I live? NO

Tell that to the people who lived/owned land right here in my home town, where there now happens to be a US highway.
You got me with emminent domain, but whether I own a house, rent an apartment, etc. is my choice, based on my ability to make the earning to afford one or the other. The govt didn't tell me I was going to live in San Clemente when I moved to California in April.

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-Does the Govt impose its will in who I see/socialize with? NO

Really? How many Arabic friends do you have? Do you think you are being monitored? What if you want to carry on a conversation/friendship with a nice female in Red China? Now what if you want to go visit her, or bring her here to visit you?
I have two Arabic (both practicing Muslims) friends who share the same concerns we all feel over this, I'm just not buying into the big brother active monitoring thing. One friend, Padram barely escaped Iran during its revolution in the 70s.

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-Does the Govt impose its will in what I buy at the grocery store? NO

FDA aside, how many items are NOT allowed to be sold in grocery stores? How many Farm Fresh items need to be bought at the farm, since the government will not allow the retail sale of them? What about people like me who LOVE venison. Ever try and BUY that meat?
I can't answer that question, but I know a good place for venison jerky...

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-Does the Govt impose its will in determining how I pursue my career? NO

Ever try and get a government job?
No, nor do I want one. But based on the many I've met/seen/observed in my lifetime, I have submitted to far greater scrutiny in securing employment in the private sector.

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-Does the Govt impose its will on how many children I may have (presuming I make that choice with a mate)? NO

Many have had tubes tied, nuts snipped, ect, by court order. Why? Welfare. Though I understand this, that still does not make it right.
It certainly does make it right. One's freedom to pursue life, liberty and happiness does not extend to the point where it unduly burdens the rest of society. That's why murder/manslaughter is illegal too, criminal lose their rights.

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-Does the Govt impose its will on what I may read, write, vote, express, observe or demonstrate? NO

Read-How about those "banned in school" lists? When was the last time you saw anything by Mark Twain in the school systems? Write? HA! Freedom of the press stops at the government level.
I have no kids, so I don't have insight to that, but those decision are stemmed from political beliefs and the educational system is not in line with the majority party in congress or the executive branch. You are not prevented from publishing or voicinga point of view.

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-Does the Govt impose its will on how late I sleep in on the weekend? NO

Give 'em time, they'll find a reason.

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-Does the Govt impose its will on what kind of beer I buy for the DZ? NO

that depends. I would love to buy some Shiner Bock for the DZ up here. Problem is, it's not available up here. I can't afford to drive all the way to Texas to get some. Can I order it and have them ship it? According to the government, NO.

Beer can be shipped across states from distributors only, brewerys cannot. However, brewerys do not sell direct to consumers in any capacity anyway. The laws are different for winerys...don't know why though.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[unlucky1 0]

ok...ok...For those of you who want to express their opinions on this thread, that's ok. But to express opinions on something that you have no idea on what it is, is ridiculous. I value everybody's opinion. I don't work for the government, but I did serve in the Marine Corps for several years in an Anti-Terrorism Unit, and, I understand that some of you may be "frustrated" with our government. But have you ever been to a third world country??? And i don't mean laying on the beach at a "Sandals" resort in Jamaica. I'm talking a real third world country? The U.S. has the best government in the world. Sure they are a bunch of A-hole pricks working for the lobbyists, but If you have any doubt that OUR gov't is the best...take a trip through other countries. REAL third world countries (and yes...almost all other countries are third world countries with the exception of a few original NATO states). You think that you don't have any freedom in the U.S. because the gov't might read your email concerning how your loins are burning for Brooke Burke or some other DZ hottie?!?!? Unless you are planning on doing an attack on the gov't / citizens / interests of the United States...why should you worry? We have 1000 times more freedom here in the U.S. than any other country. Ask any military man....or woman...just how great the U.S. is. They will tell you the same thing, that the U.S. is the most free gov't in the world. How would you like it if you were caught spitting on the sidewalk in this country and the authorities picked you up and gave you a 1-hour flogging as punishment?!?!? And yes...there are some countries that will torture you for stupid things like that. I think its about time we all wake up and realize how good you have it here. Like i said...any doubt, take your next vacation in Pakistan or even one of our biggest allies "Saudi Arabia". Ladies...prepare to be tortured if you take off your veils that cover your faces. 9/11 happened because we are so lax over here. I, like most people, dislike our freedoms being taken away. But I will gladly give up my boring emails to the government if it means that i may be protected from the next terrorist attack. And YES...there will be another attack. I am by no means a DOOMSDAYER...I am a realist. Since the gov't has cracked down on people post-9/11, they have reported dozens of thwarted potential terrorist attacks. Would you want another 3,000 people (or more) to die so long as your precious emails are kept private? Gimme a break. If so, that is selfish. I value your opinions, and i hope you value mine...but take a loooooongggg minute and open your eyes to what the world is doing behind your back. Why do you think all other countries hate us???? Because they are jealous ! They are jealous of our freedom that we have. If you think that everybody loves America, you are dead wrong. Everybody said that Saudi Arabia is one of our biggest allies. Well....15 of the 19 hijackers were of Saudi descent. And it turns out that 75% of the terror funding comes from Saudi Arabia. The only true allies we have is our gov't.

Life is not measured by the amount of breaths we take...but by the moments that take our breath away.

[Gawain 0]

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I agree that you've been an open book, but there are very strict constitutional restrictions against using much of that information agaisnt you legally. Could I intercept an email that passes through a server I have? Yes. Would it hold up in court if I tried to use it? No. Can the phone company record my phone numbers, and sell the pattern of my calls to a marketing company? Yes. Can the police do the same thing to see if I'm buying drugs without a warrant? No.

And warrants are still required, the Fourth Amendment still applies. "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

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Again I agree, but fortunately there is a big difference between using information to send you junkmail and using information to put you in jail - at least in the eyes of the law. We've got pretty good protections in place now; we should keep an eye on them, especially with people like Poindexter in the picture.

Right, but if it's used as a part of an investigation, and not submitted as evidence in a trial, is there a disconnect? Isn't the burden of proof still on the prosecution? What if I find evidence that a known child molestor is buying a lot of food that doesn't "fit" his demographic and he's downloading pornography from the internet. Then through other investigative means I find there's a kid missing in the neighborhood and a court orders a search warrant of the felon's residence and find the missing kid...is justice served...even if the prosecution never enters into evidence that they used online and marketing data as a partial means of pattern tracking?

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[freeflir29 0]

BOOBIES

[Scoby 0]

For what it's worth, I thought you were being asinine too, or at least a bit disingenuous. The freedoms that Gawain listed are ones we generally have, and the exceptions to them are mostly harmless and necessary. My objection is that pointing to freedoms we retain is a red herring when we are talking about freedoms we are losing. It is meaningless to say that we are the most free people in the world, if we are not free. It is almost farcical.

[unlucky1 0]

[

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reply]BOOBIES

and yes..i still enjoy the freedom to nibble on those too.

[billvon 2,433]

>But have you ever been to a third world country???

Personally, yes. Spent a month in Sandire, Niger. It won't show up on any map - it's a town of 300, with no running water, power or sewers. I learned a lot in that month, and most of it was not what I expected to learn.

Also spent some time in Bahrain, but that's far from third world these days.

>You think that you don't have any freedom in the U.S. because the
> gov't might read your email concerning how your loins are burning
> for Brooke Burke or some other DZ hottie?!?!?

No, in fact we have more freedom than any other country in the world - partly because we raise a huge stink whenever someone proposes removing or eroding those freedoms. We take them very seriously; many americans have died defending them.

>Unless you are planning on doing an attack on the gov't / citizens /
> interests of the United States...why should you worry?

Because in the past, that power has been abused by the US government. In the past, even ordinary citizens have been wiretapped merely so a president could win an election. They weren't planning an attack on the US government.

If it happened once, it can happen again. Our best defense is to stay vigilant against such abuses, and use the power of our vote to remove people who abuse that power.

>But I will gladly give up my boring emails to the government if it
> means that i may be protected from the next terrorist attack.

He who gives up essential liberties for temporary security deserves neither, as one of the founders of our country once said. Our constitution has survived civil wars, foreign invasions, world wars, crimes by our leaders, and domestic and foreign terrorism in the past. It will stand up in the future, with the freedoms it guarantees us intact - as long as we continue to defend them.

>Why do you think all other countries hate us???? Because they are
> jealous ! They are jealous of our freedom that we have.

I am saddened that people actually believe this. The people in Afghanistan hate us because we kill their families, friends and countrymen. The people in Jordan hate us because US bombs and aircraft kill their families, friends and countrymen. The people in Iraq hate us because we kill their families, friends and countrymen. The people in Iran hate us because we supported their enemy (Hussein) when _he_ was trying to kill them. It's really pretty simple.

Here's a counter question - do you hate the people who flew the planes into the WTC on 9/11 because you hate Allah and people who worship him? Or do you hate them because they killed 3000 Americans? Foreigners are no different.

>If you think that everybody loves America, you are dead wrong.

And on that we are in 100% agreement. A great many people hate us for what we've done in the past.

[freeflir29 0]

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The people in Jordan hate us because US bombs and aircraft kill their families, friends and countrymen

Not to nit pick.....but when was that?

[chachi 0]

(and yes...almost all other countries are third world countries with the exception of a few original NATO states).

Are you kidding me? What makes you think that most of the countries in the world are third world. This is such a silly statement I don't even know what to do with it.

You think that you don't have any freedom in the U.S. because the gov't might read your email concerning how your loins are burning for Brooke Burke or some other DZ hottie?!?!? Unless you are planning on doing an attack on the gov't / citizens / interests of the United States...why should you worry?

You should worry becasue once they start impeaching on your privacy in one way it will never stop. Meaning then why can't they tape your conversations? or video you? or any other form of surveillance they want.

We have 1000 times more freedom here in the U.S. than any other country. Ask any military man....or woman...just how great the U.S. is. They will tell you the same thing, that the U.S. is the most free gov't in the world.

The US is not the authority of freedom in the world. Most European countries are the way more relaxed than North American countries.

Why do you think all other countries hate us???? Because they are jealous ! They are jealous of our freedom that we have. If you think that everybody loves America, you are dead wrong.

Actually the rest of the world is not necesarily jealous of your freedoms, they do however hate the fact that the mighty US sticks its nose in everyones business and tries to determine how things should be everywhere. Why is there less terrorist threat for Canada even though we live basically the same lifestyle, only I would say better. I do support the US in many ways, they are the leaders in helping third world nations, helping with international cleanup disasters, and so many other things. But the US gov't could keep its nose where it belongs about half the time to avoid crap like this. How many Central American gov't fuck ups had to happen before they realized over throwing and putting in there own gov'ts doesn't work.

The only true allies we have is our gov't.

This statement is absolutely insulting to the rest of the coalition of forces that stood behind the USA in the war on terrorism in Afghanistan including the fact that by doing so these countries opened themselves up to potential terrorist attacks by being involved. I am sure the mothers and fathers of the 8 Canadian soldier that lost there lives there would love to here that you think we are not your allies and do not stand behind our neighbors to the south.

I happen to have a huge respect for the American people. A very diversified and world knowledge leading people. But the elitist atitude of the above post bothered me. I hope I did not offend anyone. If I did PM me and I will edit to clarify anything.

~chachi (oops bolded wrong parts, i suck at this.

[unlucky1 0]

No, I don't hate Allah, because i value the freedom of religion. And about Jordan, we have never attacked or dropped any bombs on Jordan because they are our biggest Allies in the MiddleEast (although its not talked about much, for fear of disrespecting the Saudis). I don't look down on any race. Whether it be arabic, chinese or French. I look down on people who take advantage of other people and the way they live. Ok...what is your answer to 9/11. Sit back and wait for it to happen again? People say "don't attack Iraq because they may retaliate with terrorism". HELLO...but I don't believe we went and attacked Saudi Arabia when 15 of its members flew into the WTC.And we didn't attack them before 9/11 that would cause them to attack us. You say that we are killing innocent people in these third world countries...how about Somalia when all we wanted to do was to back up the U.N. and feed the 3 million starving citizens of that country. An evil warlord stole every bit of food that we poured into that country, and then when we tried to stop him from taking it , the same starving citizens that we were sent in to save, turned on us and attacked us. I understand when you say that attacking Iraq is bad. I don't want our country to go to war, i already did my part and it wasn't fun. But it is necessary when it comes down to it. If Saddam arms himself with chemical weapons, bio, or Nucs and uses them on another country (possibly our own), are we then going to turn on our gov't and say " why didn't you do something to stop it? " By then only about 3 or 4 million innocents will die. We are the world's only superpower. I don't always agree with what we do as the world's policemen, but i do agree that if we don't do something, then millions more innocents will die. Saddam has already proved that he is evil and will not hesitate to use those weapons. He has already murdered more than 100,000 of his own citizens. And people think we should just leave this whacko alone??? Time to go..... (work).

[billvon 2,433]

>Not to nit pick.....but when was that?

1967. Jordan, Syria, Egypt and Iraq vs. Israel. Israel used US weapons to conquer the West Bank, which Jordan accepted (sort of) in 1988. Since we'd been selling millions of dollars of US weapons to them since 1962, including the Hawk anti-aircraft missile system, it's reasonable to think that US weapons were used in the war.

[blondeflyer7 0]

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Could I intercept an email that passes through a server I have? Yes. Would it hold up in court if I tried to use it? No


But someone could use info gained from those emails to find things that will....that's the problem.

Yes unfortunately he right

[freeflir29 0]

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it's reasonable to think that US weapons were used in the war.

The Middle Eastern world certainly sees it that way....

[Michele 1]

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Right, but if it's used as a part of an investigation, and not submitted as evidence in a trial, is there a disconnect? Isn't the burden of proof still on the prosecution? What if I find evidence that a known child molestor is buying a lot of food that doesn't "fit" his demographic and he's downloading pornography from the internet. Then through other investigative means I find there's a kid missing in the neighborhood and a court orders a search warrant of the felon's residence and find the missing kid...is justice served...even if the prosecution never enters into evidence that they used online and marketing data as a partial means of pattern tracking?

Um, some legal eagle please correct me here, but I was under the impression that if there is no exigent circumstance, probable cause or existing warrant, then obtaining info illegally creates something called a "poisoned tree", and anything stemming from that illegal info is considered "fruit of the poisoned tree", which is NOT admissible in court, and which tends to get lots of incriminating evidence tossed out...
Using your example, if there is a known child molester in the neighborhood, and a child turns up missing, there is probable cause to petition a court and obtain a warrant, which would then allow a specific and named search of his premesis, etc. Now, that's not the way it always happens, but that's the way it's supposed to work, I think.
I don't claim to have read the entire Patriot Act or ensuing bills presented and/or passed, but I don't think that they abrogate the Constitution's guarantees. I believe there still must be a warrant obtained, or exigent circumstances must exist.

The debate then moves, I think, towards what is an exigent circumstance? I think we as a country are experiencing true exigent circumstances - we have been attacked, and other AQ attacks off our immediate soil have occurred, and the danger is still very real and present. Thus some of our personal Constitutional rights are a little less (something - I am not sure of the right word) than the overall safety and wellbeing of our country.

And lastly, some of our past tightening of personal liberties during war have been restored. It is, to me, a false argument that we put the Japanese in internment camps - as soon as the threat was ameliorated, the Japanese were no longer confined. I'm not saying that was right, it's just an example used from a previous post. Sure, damage was done - permanent damage which is not recompensed by any amount of money - but the freedom was restored when the threat was no longer present.

Just my take...time to head to the office and the market...hope all have great thanksgivings!

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[unlucky1 0]

we, as a country never attacked JOrdan. Our weapons may have been used, but that doesn't mean that we did it. If a criminal shot and killed another person....we should let him go...because Sigsauer, or Smith and Wesson were the real criminals????? Automat Kalishnikovs are used all over the world...does that mean that the Soviet Union is attacking the rest of the world? I know history. I'm not always right...but didn't Israel get attacked first? by Egypt? by Syria? i'm not sure, but if somebody attacked us, i would hope that we would retaliate. And I am not an elitist. I state the facts. We are the world's only superpower. If somebody can please tell me another one, i would sure appreciate it.

[AggieDave 6]

China is becoming a super-power with the development of a modern Navy...

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[freeflir29 0]

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anything stemming from that illegal info is considered "fruit of the poisoned tree", which is NOT admissible in court

Ha.....in a perfect world maybe. I'll tell you from PERSONAL experience that this happens all the time. I had a couple of Federal LE Agents try and get a single piece of paper and a computer file from a guy that worked for me. This material was protected by attorney client priveledge. What they did is called conspiracy since it would have been AGAINST THE LAW for my employee to turn over that material. When I called them on it they just said...."Oh well...they didn't actually committ a crime. They just asked someone else to." It got swept under the rug. Complete BULLSHIT!!! BTW if they had gotten the info they were after they would have surely tried to use it against me.

[unlucky1 0]

China has always been a superpower (for the past few decades), but only in the military sense. Economically, if it wasn't for us giving them preferred status in the trade agreements, they would be down the tubes. If we were allowed to import to them as much as they export to us, they would be begging the world for help. Almost all of their money goes into the military. I for one wouldn't want to live in CHina where they only allow 1 child (preferably a boy)per family. And remember Tienemann (?spell) Squaare?

[AggieDave 6]

No, wait, you're not implying that China has no regard for human rights, are you?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."