Today's irony

[chachi 0]

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I'm soooo sure that those links have unbiased data on them...show me stats from an unbiased third party, THEN I might start to believe your argument.

I didn't post any of this so I could be goated into a thesis study on this. I posted it becasue there is truth in every one of those accounts, and for the 15th fucking time the point I was trying to get across was all about world views on the USA. The people doing this shit don't have the internet to verify if 100 or 1000 people were killed. They do know that US involvment killed X of there countryman. SO they retaliate. Is it right no, but it is reality. By the way I do trust UNICEF findings. I am not answering anything else on that one post, it was only a small part of my actual point.

~Chachi

[kallend 1,679]

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I think the Gestapo promoted a similar attitude among citizens of the Third Reich . . .

Ever been to the Holocaust museum in D.C.?

Nope - but I have been to Auschwitz.

[unlucky1 0]

yes...we have been the only ones to use the A-bomb. It was a VERY necessary evil. By using it, we stopped the war (WWII) which obviously would've killed millions more innocent lives (american and Japanese). We have already touched on that subject though.
I also agree that the Saudi Arabian Gov't is our ally, but i can attest that the people don't really like us very much. And for you to question whether i've been there???!?!?!?! Saudi Arabia with 3/6. kuwait. Korea, Japan, Thailand, Spain, England, France, Hong Kong, Bahrain, Qutar, Yemen, Austrailia, Phillipines, Cuba and the good ole USA. There is my resume. What is yours?
And the U.S. never gets praise. We feed the world, we defend the defenseless, we saved Kuwait from Iraq. We saved France from Germany. Sure we failed at Vietnam...but how much thanks did the U.S. get. It doesn't matter what the world's opinions of the U.S. is. Just like my opinions and your opinions don't mean a thing in the big picture. Either way...the U.S. will always (well...most of the time) be there when another country screams "Police ! ! !" I don't necessarily agree with our foreign policy. But we are, and have ALWAYS been the world's Policemen. We never get a thanks. kuwait is even hedging on backing us up in Iraq. And this is "after" we saved their country and gave it back to them. We gave American servicemen's lives for that country 12 years ago, and now they don't want to help us. By the way...who told you that Iraq was about Oil. Did you read it in the paper? Yeah...I always believe what the papers say (sarcasm). I suppose you went through Saddam's palaces and personally have checked to make sure they don't have WMD? Remember...after the U.N.-backed war in 91, the U.N. (not the U.S.) posted the United Nations Resolutions on Iraq. When Iraq failed to comply, the U.N. screwed up by not following through with their own resolutions. America has taken the reins, and the UN ,and led them by the hand to show them what Iraq is/ might be doing. The UN IS the world Gov't. The UN created another resolution in this case. Why do you think it is America that is starting the war with Iraq? We are the people that happen to be enforcing what the UN already dictated back in 91. The U.S. isn't doing anything wrong. Why is it that the UN jumped on "our" side when our UN ambassador presented the facts to them on why we should confront Saddam? The UN Security COuncil decided that something was to be done about Iraq. Not just the U.S. Do you really believe that the UN sat around NYCity and said " yes, i believe the U.S. should attack Iraq because they need the oil" ?!?!? The UN obviously knows something we don't know. You also stated that you read "in the news" that this is about Oil. Well guess what. 20 minutes ago on the news, they said that Elvis may still be alive too. Are you going to believe that one???
And sometimes war is inevitable. It is the ONLY course of action. Do you really think that servicemen/women "want" to go to war????? We are the ones who despise war the most. Because we've been there! I hate to tell you...but sitting around a table and "talking" to terrorists isn't going to stop them from attacking us. The terrorists are martyrs and they are heroes when they die for their cause. Do you really believe if we sit down to dinner with them we will work out our differences. The big difference is terrorism goes after civilian targets. Men, women, and children. The US goes after terrorists and military targets. I don't ever recall the U.S. saying..."hey...there's a nursery school. Lets blow the shit out of it just for fun!". Yes there are civilian casualties every now and then. But at least we don't target civilians on purpose. And i do believe the U.S. servicemen have a better insight into the workings of the U.S. and its freedom than the average civilian. Sure there are some civilians that are on the ball and follow what goes on in the world. But I would definitely say that since we put our "LIVES" on the line for this country we appreciate the freedom and understand what it means more than somebody who has never had to live in a foxhole with bullets or arty plinking in around us. I'm not saying we are "better" then anybody else, but obviously we are much more patriotic then somebody who constantly bashes our nation and our gov't and complains that they want freedom. The same people who scream for freedom (and DEMAND it) are usually the ones who never served. Typical lobbyist stuff. This is not meant to offend anybody, but somebody offended me by questioning my resume about where and what i did. What is your resume? I consider myself an authority in freedom. I fought for it and you have the gall to question the manner in which i respectfully provided it to you??? I don't know your history, but When i was laying in the sand, i know there were alot of people laying at home nice and sound under their electric blankets. Opinions is what is so good about this country. Other countries we would be shot for even discussing this stuff (CHina, to name one). I'm done with this post. Biggest going-out night of the year ! Blue skies everyone. Keep the opinions coming. This was by far the best posting i've seen in a long time. Good topic Bilvon.

Life is not measured by the amount of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away.

[chachi 0]

In a way, you are arguing the point for me too. The world views, with arrogance I might add, our policys when it is these very policies that saved western civilization from communism, national socialism, and literally millions of lives.

----YOu may have a small point about this, but you are using policy that meant something around the tyranical eras with major world wars and such. The policy now a days is based on oil and using this argument cheapens the honorable events that shaped nations.

[R00tj00se 0]

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US public sheep for believing what the Government says.

Pardon me if I'm wrong here but doesn't the government tell the armed forces who the enemy is. The armed forces then goes off and kills said enemy. Would this not make them as much sheep as the general public.

Please note that I am just playing Devil's Advocate. I do have a healthy respect for anyone that puts themselves in the line of fire. However, even though it may give you a unique view on issues such as this it also gives you a biased, one sided view.
Just as someone who works at high levels of govt. will have a biased, one sided view because they have not been 'in the firing line'.

On a separate note, I do feel that American patriotism (and , in fact, any kind of country related patriotism) is a double edged sword. What I'm about to say is going to sound like I'm a hippy tree hugger (which I most certainly am not - but maybe it's the way we should go??) but we are all humans sharing the same planet and until we learn to identify as one species rather than segregating ourselves into race, country, religion then there will always be divisions and conflict. Jesus, what would it take for that to happen?? Reading that through again it does sound as though I'm asking for some kind of Nirvana (not the smells like teen spirit kind) but isn't that what would be required before we could see an end to conflict? Have I gone too much off topic here?
It just seems that this thread has evolved into a heated debate on patriotism, pacifism, tolerance, aggresion, hate etc. If that can happen on a relatively 'meaningless' discussion board then it is no wonder countries are at war with each other.

Anyway, that's enough of me ranting on about a perfect world. In the meantime I suggest America does everything possible to remain the number one super power. If America were ever to become vulnerable militarily I suspect there is a queue of countries waiting to take advantage.

[freeflir29 0]

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If America were ever to become vulnerable militarily I suspect there is a queue of countries waiting to take advantage

And that's exactly why there is no peace. The only peace we have is preserved by warriors. Kind of ironic isn't it? Unfortunately, that's human nature.

[happythoughts 0]

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I'm soooo sure that those links have unbiased data on them...show me stats from an unbiased third party, THEN I might start to believe your argument.

I didn't post any of this so I could be goated into a thesis study on this. I posted it becasue there is truth in every one of those accounts, and for the 15th fucking time the point I was trying to get across was all about world views on the USA. The people doing this shit don't have the internet to verify if 100 or 1000 people were killed. They do know that US involvment killed X of there countryman. SO they retaliate. Is it right no, but it is reality. By the way I do trust UNICEF findings. I am not answering anything else on that one post, it was only a small part of my actual point.

~Chachi

Ummm...thanks for the links. I did read the reports. The reports were compiled by UNICEF. They are about as unbiased as you will probably find. However, the figures that you quoted "millions of children" are not reflected in the reports.

First, the UNICEF figure was 500,000 not MILLIONS. Second, it was for a 10 year period. 50,000 per year. Third, the old figure was about half that or 25,000 per year already.

So, using the link you provided. The annual death rate has doubled in Iraq. From 25 to 50, 000. An existing problem magnified by Saddam Hussein.

"They do know that US involvment killed X of there countryman. SO they retaliate. Is it right no, but it is reality."

Right. This is what they know. Not a lot of cable tv there, just what Hussein tells them. It is not reality. Remember that Saddam Hussein is the guy who bombs his own populace, the Kurds. In the choice of good water quality or a strong army, Hussein is probably not concerned about the quality of life.

All he has to do is to let in UN weapons inspectors and the problem is solved. UNICEF - the UN childrens fund - states the problem. The UN agrees on the solution. Let in the inspectors. If he does not, then how many millions of children are at risk if he has nuclear or biological weapons? He has already used biological weapons against Iran. Iran is a non-American, non-Western ideology country.

Your use of the figures was a little misleading. Your conclusion about the US being the source of the problem is incorrect. If Saddam Hussein was concerned about his own people and interested in the UNICEF findings, then he would abide by the UN resolution. Problem solved.

[R00tj00se 0]

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Unfortunately, that's human nature.

Yep, that is why there has always been and will always be conflict. Now, I know this is definately going off topic but...

There is conflict in every part of the animal kingdom. We are animals believe it or not. And no matter how evolved we may think we are we love to better our neighbour. Whether it be at work, in our social life or at a national/international level conflict reigns supreme in our lives. As you said, it is human nature. We just have not evolved sufficiently to put conflict behind us. While we have made tremendous technological advances in the past couple of millenia (or even just the past 100 yrs) we have not really evolved socially or psychologically. If we can get away with killing our neighbour who pisses us off we will (whether we are American, Iraqi, Argentinian etc).

With regards to this thread, it is quite hard to decide what to write because every one is right (ok, I'm sitting on the fence) in their own way.
At present the situation is 'kill, or be killed'. To move away from that would require every country in the world to trust everyone else. Hmmm, not gonna happen in my lifetime.

As for the reason this thread was started. I think you would be naive to think that your communications (electronic, pstn) aren't already monitored.

[Gawain 0]

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----YOu may have a small point about this, but you are using policy that meant something around the tyranical eras with major world wars and such. The policy now a days is based on oil and using this argument cheapens the honorable events that shaped nations.

Of course oil is involved. Unfotunately, the rest of the world is determined to evangelize that this is the only issue at hand.

It isn't.

The issues at hand, believe it or not, are addressed by all manner of individuals, organizations, lobbyists, etc. The leadership can not ignore the mass of input involved, not the mention the benefits of experience.

We launched our campaign in Afghanistan, the result is that women get to work, go to school and live a life with a secular government. The factions of the Warlords installed Karzai as the president while a representative government is built. This allows infrastructure to be rebuilt and it might result in the ability for other industrial nations to invest there. This will result in increase agricultural output and alternative routing for oil pipelines in the region. This also creates a stable border with neighbors Iran and Pakistan. Now, oil is a part of that story, but you and I can see it is clearly the least important.

Now, let's suppose our motives are far more malicious, callous, and downright "bad" ...It's all about oil...muhuwahaahaahaa...now everyone's an ankle biter, saying, "That's so selfish, so ecologically unsound." *stamp foot* "How could you!!"

Fine, don't get on board. But your cars are going to look silly on the side of the road with no gas, your powerplants will be nice sculptures in the darkness. Of course, you'll have to go hunting again for animal hydes because the longer lasting vinyl counterparts are no longer available...that'll piss the Sierra Club off...

The othe factors do, in fact, have to do with the way we live our lives. Policy alone can not create the kind of hatred that exists for us. If that were true, France would never have rejoined NATO. No, there is a true, deep seeded, resentment for how we live our lives.

Our policies have changed, from the doctrine of the cold war to containment (Iraq), intervention (Bosnia), inclusion (NATO), and isolation (N. Korea and Pakistan).

It doesn't matter! We can't win with anyone, whether it be Europe, South America, Africa, the sub-continent of Asia...

If we do nothing, the cry goes out, "Do something! Help us, you have so much to give!!"

When we do something the cry goes out, "Stop! How could you! Why can't you leave us alone! We don't want you here!"

Well the party's over folks, I think getting kicked three times within a hundred years is enough. George W. said it best, "You're either with us, or against us."

Now, the world really does have a choice. This time though, this giant is not going back to sleep, and it will remember.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[blueshrew 0]

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I hope that may give you a tiny insight. However.....it seems like this is comparable to trying to explain a sunset to a person that was blind since birth. Just kinda impossible. I could write a book on how strange it has been to come back to "civilian" life.

It's like trying to explain to people who share that belief, that they were trained to see things in a different way, whether it is correct or not.
Otherwise the whole military concept would not work, I suppose.

[blueshrew 0]

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I have been in every altercation since Panama and several other countries around the globe. I have to echo what was already said. If you wern't there you can't say shit. There is NO place on this planet like the US. Some places have better this or better that but NONE have it all like we do in the USA.

I doubt that you have it, you are only very good at showing the good, and trying to hide the bad.

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But they do have an advantage. Those people have been in the REAL world and not the CNN, media portrayed world.

But you have never seen it from the eyes of the other side. So basically that give you not an advantage, but a disadvantage.

If you take history books from two different countries about an event involving both, be sure that the outcome is different most of the time.

Being there give you your military's viewpoint and nothing else.

Althoug the US has been involved in a lot of good, it has stuck its nose in a loooot of places that it should not have, in providing weapons, or training, or or or. A time later they are complaining that those people are turning against them. Well go figure. If you give a child a weapon and tell them how to use it, they will probably listen to you at first, but when they get used to the idea of killing, then run and hide. It's human nature. It's like a military with even less rules.

[blueshrew 0]

You do not know the meaning of war, there never has been a war IN the US, that involved another country, so an US civilian will never have known those horrors. It is an entirely different thing to send off troops, or to have bombs falling all around you.

I suppose they get a video of Bush then, and alter it for the news to have him say that a big reason for his war is access to Iraqi oil. But it is so far away from home, that in the end you won't really care what happens, as it will not affect your LAND. So I suppose after another world war, the US will shower everyone with funds to make it better again. Well then let's hope we survive that possible war.

And by the way, if the A-bomb saved a lot of lives, you're forgetting the people who are still dying of the long term effects.

You may want to inform yourself more, before you write another humongous post without thinking.

[blueshrew 0]

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Saudi Arabia with 3/6. kuwait. Korea, Japan, Thailand, Spain, England, France, Hong Kong, Bahrain, Qutar, Yemen, Austrailia, Phillipines, Cuba and the good ole USA. There is my resume. What is yours?

Seems like your visits were mostly service visits judging from the locations. I will not post where I have been, though the list is deffinitely longer. But the difference is that I speak English, German and Arabic fluently/natively, and that makes me a non-tourist to most eyes. Let's take the Arab countries for example, you will not know the culture and will never be able to pronounce the language properly. Given that, you will always be a stranger, no matter how at home you feel. And you can argue that as much as you want, you cannot know it unless you don't have those barriers. And given that, you will always get a guarded opinion from people in that country, because they cannot communicate with you on the same cultural/mental level.
So that list has just reduced itself to a couple :)
Now before you give your next huge post, think

[billvon 2,471]

>However.....it seems like this is comparable to trying to explain a
>sunset to a person that was blind since birth. Just kinda impossible.

I can't really agree there. It's like me saying you know nothing about air traffic control until you have flown a complex aircraft at night through NYC class-B airspace. Having done that certainly gives me insight into the pilot's view of how ATC works in one of the busiest airspaces in the world, but there are many other points of view that are just as valid - including that of the controller, sitting in a windowless ARTCC, that of the pilot of a 747, bartering with the JFK tower for a visual approach. and that of the traffic helicopter guy who wants to get in front of you and fly at 40 kts. If I tried to tell any of these people "you wouldn't understand what it's like" I'd be seen as a dick, and rightly so. They _do_ understand, just in a different way.

This sort of thing happens in skydiving all the time as well. I've been told by people that I can't understand high performance canopy flight, because I don't jump a 2 to 1 canopy regularly, and am thus unqualified to tell them they're going to kill themselves. It might make them feel superior, but it's just another point of view.

Being enlisted in the military gives you a unique point of view. That view is no more valid than that of a politician's, or a civilian military employee, or that of a woman who has lost her sons to a war - or even a woman who has not. Their viewpoints are simply different.

[quatorze 1]

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www.ippnw.org/gulfwarfacts.pdf

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http://www.endiraqsanctions.net/resources/classified.htm

Glad that I am not the only one who believes what is written on the internet. Seriously, look at the source and do you really feel that they are unbiased groups/orginaztions. I just think that the further left of a situation you look, the more horrendous the accusations against the US are going to be and the more sanctified that poor, angelic innocent madman Hussein is

I'm not afriad of dying, I'm afraid of never really living- Erin Engle

[Gawain 0]

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You do not know the meaning of war, there never has been a war IN the US, that involved another country

We're getting into technicalities here, but you are flat out wrong:

The Spanish American War (1898)

The Revolutionary War (UK and France)

The US Civil War (1861-65) involved French and English conscripts supporting different sides.

The French and Indian War (1756-63)

US Mexican War (1846)

The War of 1812

The fact that these wars occurred over 100 years ago, is not an issue...they did, in fact, happen, on American soil, involving other countries. We've maintained peace since the turn of the 20 century on this continent. So while I may not know the tragedies of war, at least I make an effort to convey accurate f**k**g facts. I am very fortunate indeed.

Meanwhile, in cozy little Europe and Asia, over the past 100 years, that region of the world has managed to amass a death toll that stifles the imagination...from Normandy to the Salerno Beachhead; from Morocco to Turkey, to the Fertile Crescent; from Moscow to the Balkans.

It may be different when we're isolated geographically, just remember our mindset 60 years ago...we were only too happy to leave everyone alone. We weren't given a choice then. We are being given much of a choice today either.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[quatorze 1]

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And by the way, if the A-bomb saved a lot of lives, you're forgetting the people who are still dying of the long term effects.

True there are some people that did not die immediately, but suffered irradiation poisoning, but we must say some. Stop and look at the society that Japan had for 20 or so years before the US entrance in the war. Miitary. It was ingrained in their school childern from very early on. That equals to a generation of people who all that they really understand is miltary rule and conflict. Around the same time as the introduction of the early indoctrination of school children into miltary thought, they reintrodced, nay, reemphasied the importance of teh code of Bushido, the warrior code. Ths after the ruling parties had long ago decreed that for the country to become more western that all of the samuri should give up their traditional dress and ponytails, for the more western three-piece suit and bowler cap.

Now these changes were made by an empire hungry regime that had to much pride to agree to stipulations made by those that it would trade with, so they began an aggressie war. Not very bright thinking for a government.

We know have a country that has been militarized and a prideful government, throw into the mix the fact that the people, the citzenry, the Cincinatus of Japan were already a people with a strong devotion to the honor of the family and the land, much more so than to there desire to live. From this we get the Banzai charges, and the Kamakazi (sp?) pilots, derived late in the war.

Of these two suicide missions the most significant is the banzai charge since it was the lowest soldier, uncommanded that would dash do his death against a winning enemy instead of being captured and dishonored. I say that they are the most significant since it was a spur of the moment decision not like the "Divine Wind" Pilot who knew days in advance what his mission was to be.

Now if we take into the lowly grunts actions, the split second choices, and look at the amazing frequency of these charges. We see the same rationale, maybe with a broader idea of the facts of the histroy then were avaiable at the time, but there were numerous reports of the banzai charges, and conclusions were made.

If the regular infantry, the combat medic, the signal officer and teh quater master would bansai into the here after, what would stop the baker, the buthcer, the phamacist from doing the same if the allies had ever invaded mainland Japan?

Yes the US dropped two atomic weapons, (the only two in existence) and yes many people were killed. Many died after, but is that not better than having a war waged in which everyone dies, not just what is neccesary to end the conflict. yes the US killed many Japanese, in the atomic attacks, but if that war would have remained conventional, the simpole truth is that the number of casualties,on both sides, would have far ecxeeded the ones from Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Oh, by the way, Japan seems to have attacked the US, because we would not trade with them until they ended agressive acts in China,(look into that if you really want a true perspective concerning Japanese thought at the time... massacre). But yes, Japan attacked the US since we would not send them materials to aid their aggressive war. Admiral Fujimoto, I think said it best, "I fear that all we have done is to anger a sleeping giant."


Sorry, for the lenght ,but if history is to be debated, it should also be factual

I'm not afriad of dying, I'm afraid of never really living- Erin Engle

[blueshrew 0]

Excuse me for not mentioning wars 2 centuries ago.
My point is, if WW3 breaks out, how worried are you going to be about your life and your family's life as compared to someone who lives closer to that region (Africa, Europe, Asia)?
I wonder if you have ever been in a situation where you bought a year's supply of conserved goods, in case a war reached your home town? Been there, don't want to be there again. But maybe you may very well be in that situation if Iraq decides and is able to retaliate. And I suppose it will be able to, otherwise it wouldn't have come to this mess anyway.
But maybe Bush is just blowing off gas...? I for one, sure hope so, even though I will be the last to support the Iraqi regime.

[kmcguffee 0]

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how worried are you going to be about your life and your family's life as compared to someone who lives closer to that region

Well, would you rather that we completely pull all support from European countries or that we should only do exactly what you guys think we should? I don't get your entire point. It seems you are mad that we have peace on our continent and you have had constant wars. Should we apologize for that?

Are you from Germany like your bio says? A German lecturing about peace seems sort of ironic to me.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[blueshrew 0]

I live in Germany, but am not German, but I am wondering why a German talking about peace is ironic?
It would be like saying an American talking about human rights is ironic, because of what was done to the Native Americans. (Though I am sorry to say, that I am increasingly getting the impression that even today, the only ones enjoying human rights in the US, are US nationals, but that's a different issue)

[quatorze 1]

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Excuse me for not mentioning wars 2 centuries ago.

No sweat, we had our wars, even though no real help was ever offered from any other nation, ecxept for those that had something to gain (ie land, commerce or titles) and by the by the only war that was 2 centuries ago was the American Revolution, the last, the Spanish American war, was around the turn of the 20th century.

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My point is, if WW3 breaks out, how worried are you going to be about your life and your family's life as compared to someone who lives closer to that region (Africa, Europe, Asia)?

VERY! News flash, we live in the age of ICBM's, Intercontinental ballistic missles, and no the US is definately not the only nation to have them.

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I wonder if you have ever been in a situation where you bought a year's supply of conserved goods, in case a war reached your home town? Been there, don't want to be there again.

No I have not, there is absolutely no way for me to relate to how you must have felt and for that I am sorry, but since I, nor my father, or my father's father have not had to deal with that, doesn't that mean that we, the United States should pull out of the UN and NATO and let the rest of the world deal with its own problems. I mean hey, we seem to have two rather large bodies of water separating us from the rest of the world, we handle our corner and let the rest do there own thing. But wait, that means no more US soldiers as peacekeepers in the Balkans, attempting to keep every one from killing themselves, and definately no more US forces in Somalia, trying to make sure that starving people get the Red Cross supplies of food, (that their "WarLords" would rather horde for their own gain) and we probalbly will not ever be seen in Rawanda again, and the AIDS epidemic in Africa, bah they don't really need our help. But Uncle Ben from Spider man siad it best, "With power comes great resposiblity"

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But maybe you may very well be in that situation if Iraq decides and is able to retaliate. And I suppose it will be able to, otherwise it wouldn't have come to this mess anyway.

I for one am not the biggest supporter of the handling of the Iraq situation and the "Axis of Evil", but our allies do (ie those people that the world shunned until 1945, yeah you know them, the Jews, we as a civillized society owe a debt for idly standing by, IMHO.) Sadamm is giving rewards to the Palestinian Suicide bober's family's, and by the way how long do you have to live somewhere before you are no longer a refugee? The Palestinians have been where they are since their grandparents waged an agressive war to push Israel into the sea, well you picked a fight, you lost, deal with it.

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But maybe Bush is just blowing off gas...? I for one, sure hope so, even though I will be the last to support the Iraqi regime.

Let's hope that we (us Americans) elected the right man and that he is not blowing of steam, but making an informed decision/stand. And I neither am a member of the Iraqi fan club, but there are larger dangers in the world that need to be dealt with first, ( N. Korea and Suadi Arabia.

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but I am wondering why a German talking about peace is ironic?

Two agressive conflicts with 35 years, in a country that refuse to even teach its children about the errors of their leadership at that time, nay to even teach them about that era at all, that is mildly ironic. If you forget the past, it will be come your future.

I'm not afriad of dying, I'm afraid of never really living- Erin Engle

[Faber 0]

Two agressive conflicts with 35 years, in a country that refuse to even teach its children about the errors of their leadership at that time, nay to even teach them about that era at all, that is mildly ironic. If you forget the past, it will be come your future.

I dont like Terro,but pleac look at you self before you atacc sombody else..I think that Germany have learned of their mistake a,and have proven that.Did your leaders learn from their mistakes or are they still happening?

Dont through roks while you live in a glashouse...

Peace
Stefan Faber
ps.I dont agree whit thouse pepole that make terro,but for them they have a reson..

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[quatorze 1]

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Two agressive conflicts with 35 years, in a country that refuse to even teach its children about the errors of their leadership at that time, nay to even teach them about that era at all, that is mildly ironic. If you forget the past, it will be come your future.

I dont like Terro,but pleac look at you self before you atacc sombody else..I think that Germany have learned of their mistake a,and have proven that.Did your leaders learn from their mistakes or are they still happening?

Dont through roks while you live in a glashouse...

Peace
Stefan Faber
ps.I dont agree whit thouse pepole that make terro,but for them they have a reson..

Faber I can not say that we as a nation have not hidden the truth for a long long time from our youth, very few people here realize the strife that the US placed upon the American Indians up to the fact that the modern day man on the street would never realize that the US actually supported Hitler when he first came into office, a) because he was democratically elected, and b) he opposed Communism, but we as a nation are getting better by the minute and there is almost no information that one cannot find if looking, hell I have proof that the largest slave owner in the state of South Carolina was a black woman in Beaufort, who owned over 2,000 slaves, but we definately do not teach that in our public shcools. I agree, and conceed, I will throw no more stones, but there is still some truth and irony to what I said.

I'm not afriad of dying, I'm afraid of never really living- Erin Engle

[Faber 0]

So Truth
Be Safe!!!
Stefan Faber

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[bobsled92 0]

Well, it was nice knowing you. I believe you may have really stepped into an area where people here are of past experience beyond your knowledge( you do NOT nessesarilry know us).
Also, memory troubles: We( U.S. were attacked last year---Act of WAR).
p.s. Arabic Nations: a past friend of mine from the Military Academy is the Prince of Bahrain.
I don't sterotype.
All people are EQUAL to me until THEY put THEMselves below me. I give trust until proven wrong.

_______________________________
If I could be a Super Hero,
I chose to be: "GRANT-A-CLAUS". and work 365 days a Year.
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