Free speech?

[jraf 0]

Oi vey, what a misunderstanding. I am talking about a principle, you are talking about a living room. The comparison of both hardly seems fair. But then again all are entitled to their ideas.

Comparisson - Washington Post - belongs to the Berkshire Hathaway Corp. Say Warren Buffet likes G.W.Bush, so he tells his journalists - "I own this paper, hence you will NOT include ideas against the government and you will NOT publish readers letters that oppose this administration." Do you think that idea would fly? Can you see the corelation between a paper and a discussion forum posted on the internet?

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[AggieDave 6]

(Note, this is not directed to any single person, just everyone in general)

Remember, the Internet is NOT the United States, it is nobody's except the guy who pays for the servers and bandwidth. So this is HH's land, to play here you've got to play by HIS rules and his rules are as he sees fit. It's obviously working fairly well, or this site wouldn't have become the largest online skydiving community ever in 3 short years.

If someone doesn't like it, tough, leave, don't let the door hit you on the way out, for there are many many more that will come and take your place in our community.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[ernokaikkonen 0]

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Comparisson - Washington Post - belongs to the Berkshire Hathaway Corp. Say Warren Buffet likes G.W.Bush, so he tells his journalists - "I own this paper, hence you will NOT include ideas against the government

You think that doesn't happen? Not saying anything about Washington post since I know nothing about it, but yes, the owners of newspapers can and do control the content of the paper.

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Can you see the corelation between a paper and a discussion forum posted on the internet?

Yes, but it's not getting you anywhere...

[Sebazz1 2]

Did someone say... Boobies?!?

[billvon 2,435]

>I am talking about a principle, you are talking about a living room.

No, you're talking about a web site, one you do not own.

>Comparisson - Washington Post - belongs to the Berkshire Hathaway
> Corp. Say Warren Buffet likes G.W.Bush, so he tells his journalists-
> "I own this paper, hence you will NOT include ideas against the
> government and you will NOT publish readers letters that oppose
> this administration."

No problem at all! The Rush Limbaugh show does just that. In your view of free speech, should Rush be required to show no right-wing bias? Read the Socialist Review or the Cato Journal - do you propose that, in this free country you sing the praises of, that these papers should be altered to fit your style of politics? No - freedom of speech allows them to say whatever they want, even if it's blatantly pro-Bush (or anti-Bush.)

Of course, no one would _read_ the Washington Post after Buffet did something like that, but it is his paper to destroy if he chooses.

>Can you see the corelation between a paper and a discussion forum
> posted on the internet?

There is an excellent correlation. In both cases, the owner is free to do whatever he wants and say whatever he wants, and allow whatever opinions, posts, articles, etc he wants. Freedom in action.

[narcimund 0]

As others are saying, newspapers DO limit the speech they print. If you write an essay for publication in the Washington Post, they're not going to print it. What a surprise! You have absolutely no claim on their printing presses. Get your own.

And you have no claim on Sangiro's website. Get your own.

Free speech does NOT mean you can speak in other people's forums for free. It doesn't mean anyone has to reproduce or broadcast your speech. Sorry.

By the way, you didn't answer my questions about the hypothetical party in your house. Would you invite a whiny, sanctimonious, rabble rouser back? And if you didn't, doesn't that amount to censorship?

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[jraf 0]

Rush Limbaugh - excellent example of freedom of speach. He can express whatever bias he wants. If you look at the ACLU, it will defend the freedom of speach of both the far right as well as the far left. I support the ACLU.

Freedom of action true. It is a matter of civilizational maturity wheather you choose to exercise certain actions, like limiting the freedom of expression.

Last but not least, and that is another can of worms - who owns the internet? If you decide to open a forum on the web, does it not become a public forum? It is freedom of action to do it, nobody forces anyone to open a forum on the web.

I am sure you have seen many more countries with greater liberties than ours. Would you care to share your knowledge with poor little uneducated, untraveled me? For I reserve the right to sing praises about the US. I don't think we live in an ideal country, but I like it. See the idea is that if you don't like it, you are free not only to view your oppinion, but also live in it freely. Yeah, I think that's what I like about it.

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[TomAiello 25]

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If you look at the ACLU, it will defend the freedom of speach of both the far right as well as the far left. I support the ACLU.

I've got to call you on that. The ACLU has a very poor track record defending "Politically Incorrect" speech, and has even filed several briefs supporting government action restricting speech, particularly related to conservative speech on university campuses and conservative political demonstrations.

The ACLU used to support free speech. I lost faith in them several years ago, and they have done little or nothing to win back my support.

Check out the Institute for Justice web site.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[jraf 0]

Will research that but I do well remember the ACLU supporting (perhaps not without reservations) the freedom of speach of Neo-Nazis.
But thanks, you make a point I will have to research. I am a rotten liberal, and being that means I don't believe in double standards!

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[wildblue 4]

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If you decide to open a forum on the web, does it not become a public forum? It is freedom of action to do it, nobody forces anyone to open a forum on the web.

No, it doesn't. People use the internet all the time for private message boards, and even for secure communication between offices.
Yes, you're free to open up a message board to the general public, and you're also free to do with it and moderate it as you see fit.

Have you ever called up the local radio station and thrown a fit because they wouldn't let you talk on the air? Or play the songs you wanted them to play?

it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality

[ernokaikkonen 0]

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Last but not least, and that is another can of worms - who owns the internet? If you decide to open a forum on the web, does it not become a public forum?

If you open a forum on the internet... yes, it becomes a public forum. Do you lose all the rights to your creation? Of course not.

The person who opens the site has the right to do anything he sees fit with the site. He also has the responsibility to make sure that the site is not used for anything illegal or immoral(the spreading of child pornography comes to mind).

The point I'm trying to get to: Maintaining a site can't come only with responsibilities. It must also come with rights.

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It is freedom of action to do it, nobody forces anyone to open a forum on the web.

And nobody forces anyone to frequent any forums....

[AggieDave 6]

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I am a rotten liberal, and being that means I don't believe in double standards!

I thought that being a "rotten liberal" you DID believe in double standards.

It all depends on what side of the fence your standing on, since both sides can cry foul on each other on many things.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[billvon 2,435]

>Freedom of action true. It is a matter of civilizational maturity
> wheather you choose to exercise certain actions, like limiting the
> freedom of expression.

Again, are you therefore OK with my carbon-tax posters on your lawn?

>who owns the internet?

No one. You can say whatever you want on it, and open whatever site you want on it. However, Sangiro owns _this_ particular site on the Internet, and therefore _he_, not you, gets to say (or allow) whatever he wants.

It's like a road. Roads are open to the public, but that doesn't give me the right to sit on your car with a megaphone and broadcast my political opinions.

>If you decide to open a forum on the web, does it not become a
> public forum?

Only if the owner chooses to make it so.

[jraf 0]

There are many ways of utilizing the web. Forums are one of them. A forum is a making your web site public (hence the name forum: lat. place of discussion). When you make a place public, you can anticipate that you will see some oppinions that you won't like. If you can't accept it, don't make the place public.

These are my principles. My family has supported the freedom of speach for quite a few centuries (yes, centuries). Comparing this place to a living room or a carpet is quite infantile.

Actually I have never called up a local radio station, so no, I have not thrown a fit. Once again a different idea.

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[billvon 2,435]

>I am a rotten liberal, and being that means I don't believe in double standards!


"Rotten liberals" support a great many double standards. They support affirmative action, which uses different standards for minority and mainstream students. They support housing incentives, which uses different standards for qualification for loans based on income. Much of their political approach uses double standards to effectively "level the playing field."

[KawiZX900 0]

didn't sly and the famiily stone cover this one already"

Accelerate hard to get them looking, then slam on the fronts and rollright beside the car, hanging the back wheel at eye level for a few seconds. Guaranteed reaction- Dave Sonsky

[TomAiello 25]

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I do well remember the ACLU supporting (perhaps not without reservations) the freedom of speach of Neo-Nazis

The Skokie demonstration that you are thinking of happened in 1977. I believe the ACLU of 1977 was a significantly different organization from the ACLU of today.

My personal "Skokie" (that's ACLU insider slang for a critical event which tests a persons beliefs deeply and makes them re-consider their commitment to the ACLU) came during the 90's. I believe the ACLU should return to their (purely) free-speech ideals. By adulterating their commitment to free speech in favor of the other (non civil liberties related) planks of their political agenda, they have lost sight of their original vision.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[jraf 0]

If you would care to elaborate what you want to achieve through carbon tax I would be ready to discuss it. I am frustrated that I have to drive a 4 liter V8 instead of the 2.5 liter turbo diesel that propells my truck much better.

As I said I would be open for discussion. That is what democracy is all about - free exchange of oppinions. Among civilized people, if you have a valid argument you might convince me. I may let you put that poster in my fron yard. Should I pre-determine the outcome of a discussion, the discussion is a waste of time. But that is not what a civilized person would do, is it? Democracy is not about shouting at each other. It's an art of listening and argumentation. Only a helpless person brings a gun to a discussion.

I have no arguments, but I don't like what you say so I will shoot you - bit funny is it not?

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[billvon 2,435]

>If you would care to elaborate what you want to achieve through
> carbon tax I would be ready to discuss it. . . .I _may_ let you put
>that poster in my fron yard

Ah, but see, the issue is not reasonable discussion. The issue is that you have decided that you might not allow my political views on your lawn i.e. you will "censor" them if you disagree. So does Sangiro, when things are posted on something that belongs to him (this website.) He's pretty good about not doing that much, I think, but there are some absolute rules (like jokes about pedophilia) which, if you break, you _will_ get censored.

>Democracy is not about shouting at each other. It's an art of
> listening and argumentation.

Democracy is a system of government, not a form of debate. In any case this is not a democracy.

[jraf 0]

Liberal - supporting liberties. The Nazis called themselves National Sociallists but after the Night of the Long Knifes (1935) the social part of the movement was shot or sent to concentration camps. What you describe as liberals are people who call themselves that.

I don't support affirmative action - it hurts the black cause. I am absolutely opposed to discrimination though. Subsidized housing - a noble social idea gone astray, but I like the idea. Supporting the underprivileged is not a double standard, it's a noble idea, caring for my less fortunate brothers is my social responsibility. That is what makes us a civilized nation.

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[wildblue 4]

Well, at least you're passing the time today and giving me a good chuckle, so I'll continue....

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There are many ways of utilizing the web. Forums are one of them.

Yes, thank you for the education on the "Internet" Perhaps tomorrow we'll get into how the internet was started, and who controlled what was said on it back then.

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A forum is a making your web site public

No. Again, I can make a private forum, and only let in who I want to let in. Just because I create a forum on the internet, does not mean everyone has a right to read and post to it.

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Actually I have never called up a local radio station, so no, I have not thrown a fit. Once again a different idea.

No. Not a different idea. Aren't radio waves public? No one really "owns" radio waves, right? So, if you're broadcasting something that everyone can listen to, doesn't that make it public? Shouldn't then, by your logic, you be able to make the radio station play what you want to hear?

it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality

[happythoughts 0]

The problem with the support of the Skokie issue was this. The Neo-Nazis wanted to parade through a town with a large Jewish population. The ACLU went to bat for the Nazis. There were people who didn't like the ACLU defending people on the other side of an issue. The ACLU lost a lot of funding. They haven't made that mistake since. Free speech is one thing, but losing money is another.

[cgross 1]

I can't quite agree with all that. Supporting the underprivledged holier than thou Crap is BS. You know what, at one time or another we were all underprivledged, and we had to fight to get where we are today. Stop giving hand out to "underprivledged" people. It breeds laziness, and does nothing for the better good. Instead make the underprivledged proud, and give them something to fight for.

[jraf 0]

Show me which rules I brake and I will bow my head to your argument.

I might - yes an unfortunate figure of speach, then again it is the matter of a public forum and a private front yard. If I decided to open my front yard to the public oppinion and name it Speakers Corner I would not criticize people for expressing oppinions I don't like. I hope you appreciate the comparison. And get me right I do agree on the pedophilia ban.

Democracy - a democratic government is based on the free flow of ideas and discussion vide: US Congress. If you look at the genesis of democracy, it was based on discussion. Ancient Greek history will not change for us. By voting, you are entering a discussion. You are also free to enter the discussion as a candidate and make your oppinions public.

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[AggieDave 6]

This is NOT a public forum, just because its free doesn't mean that its public. You still have to sign a membership to post, in electronically signing that membership you are binding yourself to the rules laid out by the owner of the forum. Clear and simple.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."