TheMonkey 0 #1 December 31, 2002 a buddy just called me and read me this quote Clancy's book Shadow Warriors -- Inside the Special Forces: "Unlike american chutes which burst open the moment the static line went tight could easily malfunction, british chutes didn't deploy until the suspension lines went taught - a much safer system. On the other hand americans carried a small reserve chute on their chest, brits did not if their chutes failed that was it." WWII time frame, rounds, jumping from approx 800 ft. -- does this mean they were simply packing americans neck breakers? or with immediate deployment does that mean they were not packing in a d-bag? not stowing lines? or is clancy just yanking my crank here and sensationalizing facts to astound whuffos??? (i just got the quote, so do not really know the context in which it was written) --------------------- Never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #2 December 31, 2002 Rounds have no D-bags . The british were probally using an early diaper or sleeve system which would control the openings a lot better then the normal free packed system that was common on military static line gear before that. Sport diapers did'nt appear until the 60's in common usage so I'm going for more of a sleeve device to control inflation. Hmm... looks like I need to hit my PMM's a bit deeper again Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 186 #3 December 31, 2002 Quote Rounds have no D-bags . The british were probally using an early diaper or sleeve system which would control the openings a lot better then the normal free packed system that was common on military static line gear before that. Sport diapers did'nt appear until the 60's in common usage so I'm going for more of a sleeve device to control inflation. My PC and my Sierra (packed in Wonderhogs) have D-bags, as did my T-10. My 7-TU is sleeved. My conicals are all diapered. My 28' bellywart uses a quarter bag typical of a B-5 type container. The '70s vintage military rigs I jumped, both US and British, were D-bagged. The standard pack job of a C-9 canopy into a B-4/B-12, as well as most anybody's bellywart, is an unreefed canopy with lines stowed in the pack tray. I don't have a copy of Poynter at work, but I wouldn't be surprised if the author got a few facts garbled. I'll look it up when I get home. Blue skies, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #4 December 31, 2002 Clancy is correct when referring to World War 2 vintage static-line rigs. The US Army (and most other armies) used Type I, canopy-first deployment, which is not very reliable. I canopy first deployment, the static-line opens the container then drags the canopy out by its apex. The canopy snivels for awhile, then starts to inflate. It is usually partially inflated long before the lines have finished unstowing from the cotton loops (or more recently rubber bands) that hold them in the pack tray. Since the canopy is already partially inflated, line stretch includes a nasty jolt. Only the static-line and the remnants of a piece of break cord (later Velcro) trail behind the airplane. This nasty jolt, combined with the unpredictable inflation leads to a high malfunction rate. Since canopy first deployment has such a dismal malfunction rate, American, German, Italian, Japanese, etc. paratroopers were forced to wear chest-mounted reserves, doubling the cost of sending them to war. Early in the Second World War, a British firm called GQ (eventually part of GQ Security and most recently amalgamated with Para-Flite and Irvin) invented the direct bag, which softened openings and vastly improved reliability. When a direct bag reaches the end of the static-line, it lifts the deployment bag our of the pack tray. Lines unstow from cotton sleeves (or later rubber bands) on the d-bag. Lines are tight and symmetrical before the bag opens. This vastly reduces opening shock and reduces the confusion when air hits the canopy. After everyone is gone, jumpmasters have to reel a huge jumble of static-lines and d-bags back into the plane so they can shut the door. Since direct bag is so much more reliable, the financially strapped British paratroopers were not issued reserves. Remember that most combat jumps are made so low that reserves are useless. Later British inventions such as anti-inversion nets further reduced the malfunction rate to almost zero, relegating reserves to a purely psychological function. I would cheerfully jump a modern (heck even a 1980s-vintage netted T-10) from 500 feet without a reserve. I am not clear when sleeves were introduced. I have seen sleeves on several Russian ejection seats and heard that they were introduced to sport jumping during the 1950s by the French. Sleeves are nothing more than really long d-bags. The quarter bag was introduced during the 1950s by the United States Air Force. Hank Asquito is credited with inventing the diaper (Types 2, 3 and 4) in the 1970s. If you want to know about recent developments in military static-lines, attend the 2003 PIA Symposium. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheMonkey 0 #5 December 31, 2002 laughing, i think that covered it! thanx --------------------- Never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #6 January 1, 2003 Damn Rob......Nice history piece. One quick question....what can you tell me about that crazy lookin Brit S/L canopy with the weight suspended in the middle? I saw a crazy SOB get out at about 200Ft with one of those rigs..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #7 January 1, 2003 Quote Damn Rob......Nice history piece. One quick question....what can you tell me about that crazy lookin Brit S/L canopy with the weight suspended in the middle? I saw a crazy SOB get out at about 200Ft with one of those rigs.....> That is the British Army's current issue static-line rig. The thing you see suspended in the middle is a Webb chute, little more than a soft pilotchute, but it radically changes the opening characteristics of a round parachute. The Webb chute was invented circa 1980 by an engineer named Webb who worked for Irvin Industries of Canada. We first saw Webb chutes on the AIM canopy destined for the CF-18 fighter plane's ejection seat. A Webb chute makes round canopy openings far more predictable. Instead of the old "snivel, snivel, snap" opening, a Webb chute spreads the skirt NOW, sort of like a low budget spreader gun. Since canopies equipped with Webb chutes open so fast, you need some way of reefing them at higher airspeeds. Irvin solved this problem by installing the world's largest Spandex cat-eye on the AIM. Butler's BAT slider equipped canopies solve the opening shock problem by combining the Webb chute with a slider. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
