New Gear Questions

[davelepka 4]

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Eveyone on here is espousing the virtues of slow downsizing and then we commonly see this from the same people

It's no secret that the learning curve of almost any activity are steepest in the early stages. It's not hard to imagine that a jumper might outgrow their first wing faster than subsequent wings if they start off with a low WL.

In any case, I never suggested anything in the way of rapid downsizing, I simply stated a fact. You say you put 400 jumps on your first canopy, and I don't think I'm out of line saying that your experience is pretty far off the norm.

Even then, 400 jumps is not enough to wear out a canopy. Even if you buy a used canopy with 800 jumps on it, 400 more will not wear it out. With that in mind, I stand by what I said, the guy doesn't need to worry about longevity when buying his first canopy.

[popsjumper 2]

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So I'm looking to buy my first rig and I've read every article I could find on the subject. My research has answered most of my questions but also brought up some new ones. Here's what I've been able to piece together so far but I'd like to see if there's anything I'm missing.

Now I know that the first post will likely be "Ask your instructors/rigger." Trust me, I will before making any purchases, but I've got to stat somewhere.

That being said, here's where I'm at:

1. I'm definitely buying used. I'm not sure how long I'll be jumping my initial setup and I'd also like to learn how to clean/maintain gear on a less expensive used setup.

2. I'm looking for a container that will fit a 170-190 9 cell canopy. Most of my jumps have been on an Infinity container so I'm very partial to those. I've got a little bit of time on a Javelin and I didn't love it. I don't like the unique closing sequence. My question here is, what other containers out there are similar to Infinity in style and packing? Is Javelin the only oddball?

3. As far as a main goes, I've jumped Pulse, Spectre, Sabre. I'm comfortable with all of them but prefer the 9-cell Sabre out of the three. Are there any other canopies out there that would fly similarly to the Sabre?

4. I've got no reserve experience so I'm basically flying blind here. Anything I should be aware of in this area?

5. No experience with AADs aside from turning them on at the start of the day. I've familiarized myself with the difference models, maintenence schedules, etc.

A couple of things:
You've seen a lot of people saying smething along the lines of "you're not going to jump your first canopy long.... "

Please don't take that as gospel. While it is true that people tend to downsize as their skill levels increase, be wary that you are not doing it just because the "cool kidz" talk you into it. What canopies you will fly are totally up to you and there is no "requirement" that you downsize. You are not going to be regaled as in idiot if you don't downsize.

A lot of the razz to downsize comes from the "look at me" kids. You've already stated that you're quite comfortable with conservative canopy flight. Just know that that is perfectly OK. IMO, it's much more preferable to going smaller and smaller until you find the one that hurts you.

As far as the Javelin....nah, not a problem at all in the closing and it's far from "unique". Regardless of where the closing loop is anchored, the first pull is going to be across the bag anyway.

There are some rigs that require a specific R-L or L-R sequence. Those will have numbers on the inside of the flaps to show you the correct closing sequence. It's all about the cut of the container and it's flaps.

As far as the canopies, it's ironic that the 3 you listed are all in the same category/type and all have very similar flight characteristics. They were all intended for very nearly the same market. Other popular similar canopies would be Pilot, Sabre2, Safire.

The info you already got about reserves is good.

AADs....while technically there are 3 major ones out here, only two of those companies are still making them. Those models are: Cypres and Vigil. Cypres seems to have command of the market share for the most part.

While browsing the ads beware....you might run into a scammer. You can protect yourself by using an escrow service. Most riggers will do that for you. Some as a free service, some will charge you for the service.

It's impressive that you are doing your own research and taking things logically and with common sense.

Good luck to you in your quest.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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Anyone who tells you hybrid construction has 'longevity' issues is full of shit.

+1, thanks for summarizing it for me.

+1

Each of my reserves is older than my rigs AND my mains...combined.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Bluhdow 31]

Part of my concern with the hybrid longevity wasn't that I'd be jumping it forever, but rather that I'd be inheriting a canopy that's already well into it's usable life. That being said, it seems that many of you feel that's not quite the issue it's been made out to be and I'll look to my rigger for a final opinion.

As stated before, my goal isn't to downsize very quickly. I actually plan on taking a first BASE course when I qualify so my focus will be on landing larger canopies accurately, not landing smaller canopies more quickly.

While my container preference will likely remain with Infinity, it's a little bit of a crap shoot with respect to what's out there. I'll be looking to start piecing this thing together asap and I'll see what's out there.

Thank you everyone for your input. These forums are incredibly valuable and I look forward to continuing to use them - and maybe even one day being able to drop some wisdom from time to time. =)

In the meantime, if you're in Perris/Lake Elsinore/San Diego and know about some good gear for sale and/or want to jump give me a shout.

~Joe

Apex BASE
#1816

[pchapman 262]

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DZOs, and they wouldn't buy 1000's of Navigators if they didn't stand up to the test of time.

No complaints with you pointing that out. But I'd say that that won't cover all aspects of the situation. A Navigator will still be better than an ancient baffed out F-111 style Manta. But that's not what we want to compare: We may want to know whether or not a medium sized or less hybrid canopy maintains performance as long as a similar size all ZP canopy.

I don't know the answers though, so for all I know you're right that hybrid canopies in general have been fine for longevity -- not just physically, but in performance, which counts at higher wing loadings.

[popsjumper 2]

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As stated before, my goal isn't to downsize very quickly.....my focus will be on landing larger canopies accurately, not landing smaller canopies more quickly.

You, my new-found friend, warm my heart!
Kinda like you fed a stray dog.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[KellyF 16]

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Skydivers with averaege testosterone levels want to down-size.

That is a horrible generalization to pass on to a newbie. So very much wrong with that.

It's reality.

I'd much rather see some one get a rig that can accomodate what's likely to happen than get a less tolerant rig, be short on funds so they don't buy a smaller rig when they run out of closing loop, and have their smaller main fall out in the plane (seen that in person, it's a little scary) or on their way out (seeing a main fall out in the plane is scary because I've seen pictures of skydiver sized holes in the side of planes and "exciting" videos with plane + main entanglements).

I'd also much rather see some one get a rig with a safe sized main now that'll accomodate two sizes smaller than a parachute one or more sizes smaller than conservative because the rig they want will only go one size smaller or a rig that starts out on the small size which has them delegating to packers who won't be quite as attentive to things like frayed steering lines as an owner packing their own rig.

The reason we locate the closing loop on the bottom flap instead of a tab at the base of the reserve container is for the security of the main pin cover flap. Tuck tabs require specific geometry to function properly, and locating the closing loop on the bottom flap ensures that the hinge point on the pin cover and the edge of the main top flap that it has to line up with are always in alignment. If you have the closing loop attached at the base of the reserve container, that allows the main top flap to "float" up or down based on the length of the closing loop, messing up the critical alignment of the hinge and edge of the flap.

So yes, you can downsize more with the loop anchored near the reserve container, at the expense of pin protection, so I wouldn't say that one style is "safer" than the other when it comes to putting smaller canopies in them than they were designed for.

One other thing to think about when it comes to downsizing- people will be a lot more likely to downsize if all they have to buy is a new canopy. If they have to buy a new canopy AND harness, maybe they won't be downsizing quite so quickly, presumably becoming a better canopy pilot with their current (larger) canopy

[DaVinciflies 0]

Thanks Kelly. That makes sense now.

[pchapman 262]

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If they have to buy a new canopy AND harness, maybe they won't be downsizing quite so quickly, presumably becoming a better canopy pilot with their current (larger) canopy

Nothing wrong with that, but of course it can go the other way too:
If it is really expensive to downsize in ideal, teensy little steps, people will be more likely to downsize in one giant step, to get the rig they'll 'grow into' and be able to hang onto for years...

[Bluhdow 31]

Thank you Kelly. It's great to be able to get info like this straight from the source!

Apex BASE
#1816

[bofh 0]

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The reason we locate the closing loop on the bottom flap instead of a tab at the base of the reserve container is for the security of the main pin cover flap.

Isn't that a matter of how the cover flap is designed? Ie Wings style main protection doesn't seem to suffer as the canopy gets smaller (at least within reasonable limits) while Javelin containers often have to be modified when the canopy gets smaller.

[popsjumper 2]

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Javelin containers often have to be modified when the canopy gets smaller.

Never heard this before. Got more detail?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[sundevil777 94]

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Javelin containers often have to be modified when the canopy gets smaller.

Never heard this before. Got more detail?

I think it might be that as was mentioned before, the fit of the main closing flap is affected by the closing loop length when the closing loop is attached to the bottom of the tray/reserve wall. Modifications to improve the security of the flap might be desired to improve a badly fitting main cover flap.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[KellyF 16]

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The reason we locate the closing loop on the bottom flap instead of a tab at the base of the reserve container is for the security of the main pin cover flap.

Isn't that a matter of how the cover flap is designed? Ie Wings style main protection doesn't seem to suffer as the canopy gets smaller (at least within reasonable limits)....

That is correct. Our pin cover and the "up-tuck" style covers work for the same reason, it's just not as apparent with ours. With the "up-tuck" style, the stiffened pin cover is always going to be longer than the distance between the hinge and the pocket, so it makes sense that it would stay tucked in when you look at it. The main downside to that style of pin cover is that it takes very little effort to open it should something get underneath it.

[popsjumper 2]

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Javelin containers often have to be modified when the canopy gets smaller.

Never heard this before. Got more detail?

I think it might be that as was mentioned before, the fit of the main closing flap is affected by the closing loop length when the closing loop is attached to the bottom of the tray/reserve wall. Modifications to improve the security of the flap might be desired to improve a badly fitting main cover flap.

So what I am reading is that one is putting a canopy in the container smaller than what the container was designed to hold...is that correct?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239