New Gear Questions

[Bluhdow 31]

So I'm looking to buy my first rig and I've read every article I could find on the subject. My research has answered most of my questions but also brought up some new ones. Here's what I've been able to piece together so far but I'd like to see if there's anything I'm missing.

Now I know that the first post will likely be "Ask your instructors/rigger." Trust me, I will before making any purchases, but I've got to stat somewhere.

That being said, here's where I'm at:

1. I'm definitely buying used. I'm not sure how long I'll be jumping my initial setup and I'd also like to learn how to clean/maintain gear on a less expensive used setup.

2. I'm looking for a container that will fit a 170-190 9 cell canopy. Most of my jumps have been on an Infinity container so I'm very partial to those. I've got a little bit of time on a Javelin and I didn't love it. I don't like the unique closing sequence. My question here is, what other containers out there are similar to Infinity in style and packing? Is Javelin the only oddball?

3. As far as a main goes, I've jumped Pulse, Spectre, Sabre. I'm comfortable with all of them but prefer the 9-cell Sabre out of the three. Are there any other canopies out there that would fly similarly to the Sabre?

4. I've got no reserve experience so I'm basically flying blind here. Anything I should be aware of in this area?

5. No experience with AADs aside from turning them on at the start of the day. I've familiarized myself with the difference models, maintenence schedules, etc.

Any purchase would go through a rigger's pre-inspection of course.

Anything else I should be taking into consideration as I browse the classifieds?

Thank you for your guidance, much appreciated!

Apex BASE
#1816

[likestojump 3]

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2. Most of my jumps have been on an Infinity container so I'm very partial to those. I've got a little bit of time on a Javelin and I didn't love it. I don't like the unique closing sequence. My question here is, what other containers out there are similar to Infinity in style and packing? Is Javelin the only oddball?

Can you explain this please ? I own both.

thanks !

[Bluhdow 31]

Well, the Infinity's closing loop is on bottom flap. You go bottom to top, top to right, right to left and close.

The Javelin had a "tounge" (for the lack of a better word and/or understanding) that had the loop on it coming from the top of the packing tray. Under the reserve. The tounge had to be pulled over the bag, then through the same sequence (bottom, top, left, right).

Maybe not all Javelins are like this. Maybe I'm not remembering the container type correctly. But I'm fairly certain it was a Javelin and this closing style threw me for a loop (pun!).

Apex BASE
#1816

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Well, the Infinity's closing loop is on bottom flap. You go bottom to top, top to right, right to left and close.

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The Javelin had a "tounge" (for the lack of a better word and/or understanding) that had the loop on it coming from the top of the packing tray. Under the reserve. The tounge had to be pulled over the bag, then through the same sequence (bottom, top, left, right).

Right.

Skydivers with averaege testosterone levels want to down-size. Those making 100-200 jumps a year with the sense to follow Brian Germain's chart (about 1.0 + .1/100 jumps. Assuming you load a 190 at 1:1 that gets you to a 170 in 100 jumps after you have your A-license and 150 in another 150 jumps) may get 6-12 months out of each canopy. Those with bad-judgment often down-size in less time. Those with the worst judgment get an unsafe canopy now which they can "grow into" so they get more life out of their first container and don't need to put too much effort into reselling gear.

With the closing loop on the flap there's much less tolerance for smaller canopies (one the grommets are touching you can't make the closing loop any shorter) than on the reserve container wall and with a new canopy every 6-12 months those guys are likely to get less life out of such a configuration.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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4. I've got no reserve experience so I'm basically flying blind here. Anything I should be aware of in this area?

Having seen a guy spiral to a "landing" under a reserve (he got knocked out on an AFF jump, was seen falling away head-low in the video, and had an AAD fire at faster than belly to earth freefall speeds) which had split into 2 and 5 cell chunks connected by its one reinforcing tape at the tail seam I wouldn't choose to buy anything that didn't have spanwise tapes across all the line attachments.

All modern designs do this - PDR, Smart, Tempos made after 2001 IIRC, the Raven R-Max. Older Precision Raven variants like the Raven, Super Raven, Micro Raven, and -M do not. Older Tempos do not.

[Bluhdow 31]

I do plan on following Germain's general guidelines. A 190 would be loaded around 1:1 for me. As my skills (presumably) advance I would expect to work down to a 170 within the same container.

I appreciate your input but I'm not completely clear on the takaway. Is it that the Javelin allows more flexibility when downsizing compared to the Infinity design?

Thanks!

Apex BASE
#1816

[sundevil777 94]

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Skydivers with averaege testosterone levels want to down-size.

That is a horrible generalization to pass on to a newbie. So very much wrong with that.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Bluhdow 31]

Don't worry about it too much. I've read the downsizing debates on these forums ad nauseum and was actually witness to a horrible swooping incident.

I'm well aware of the dangers of downsizing too quickly and intend to focus my attention on being cool in freefall, not under canopy.

Apex BASE
#1816

[Squeak 17]

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I do plan on following Germain's general guidelines. A 190 would be loaded around 1:1 for me. As my skills (presumably) advance I would expect to work down to a 170 within the same container.

I appreciate your input but I'm not completely clear on the takaway. Is it that the Javelin allows more flexibility when downsizing compared to the Infinity design?

Thanks!

i little more but not a great deal.
I would not worry to much about the closing sequence, what ever rig you get you will get used to closing it very quickly. COMFORT and FIT are very important. All modern rigs are a variation on a theme, and any (modern) rig from the major manufacturers will see you well.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[Bluhdow 31]

What's the cutoff year for "modern?"

I know there are freefly issues with older rigs unless they've since been modified. What would be the hurdle DOM for me to get over?

Thanks!

Apex BASE
#1816

[Squeak 17]

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What's the cutoff year for "modern?"

I know there are freefly issues with older rigs unless they've since been modified. What would be the hurdle DOM for me to get over?

Thanks!

I personally would stick within 10 years, (yes there are perfectly fine rigs older i know). and make certain it is checked out by a qualified rigger before purchase.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[sundevil777 94]

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...focus my attention on being cool in freefall, not under canopy.

Coming in for a ridiculously soft, easy landing is very cool. Being able to do that even when you are making an off-landing in someone's yard or whatever is very cool.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Bluhdow 31]

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...focus my attention on being cool in freefall, not under canopy.

Coming in for a ridiculously soft, easy landing is very cool. Being able to do that even when you are making an off-landing in someone's yard or whatever is very cool.

Haha, then I stand corrected. I will be cool in freefall AND landing softly on my feet under canopy beneath a reasonable wing.

Apex BASE
#1816

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Skydivers with averaege testosterone levels want to down-size.

That is a horrible generalization to pass on to a newbie. So very much wrong with that.

It's reality.

I'd much rather see some one get a rig that can accomodate what's likely to happen than get a less tolerant rig, be short on funds so they don't buy a smaller rig when they run out of closing loop, and have their smaller main fall out in the plane (seen that in person, it's a little scary) or on their way out (seeing a main fall out in the plane is scary because I've seen pictures of skydiver sized holes in the side of planes and "exciting" videos with plane + main entanglements).

Lots of us start out with the impression that we'll never jump small parachutes, "hook turn" (that's crazy!) or BASE jump (that's even more insane) and later find out that we were wrong. Preparation for something that's likely (but really not necessary) is a fine idea especially when it doesn't cost any more.

I'd also much rather see some one get a rig with a safe sized main now that'll accomodate two sizes smaller than a parachute one or more sizes smaller than conservative because the rig they want will only go one size smaller or a rig that starts out on the small size which has them delegating to packers who won't be quite as attentive to things like frayed steering lines as an owner packing their own rig.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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What's the cutoff year for "modern?"

It's a function of design. People were making Cypres ready rigs without velcro and reserves with span-wise reinforcing tapes in 1996. People were also still making older designs.

[sundevil777 94]

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Skydivers with averaege testosterone levels want to down-size.

That is a horrible generalization to pass on to a newbie. So very much wrong with that.

It's reality.

I'd much rather see some one get a rig that can accomodate what's likely to happen than get a less tolerant rig, be short on funds so they don't buy a smaller rig when they run out of closing loop, and have their smaller main fall out in the plane (seen that in person, it's a little scary) or on their way out (seeing a main fall out in the plane is scary because I've seen pictures of skydiver sized holes in the side of planes and "exciting" videos with plane + main entanglements).

Lots of us start out with the impression that we'll never jump small parachutes, "hook turn" (that's crazy!) or BASE jump (that's even more insane) and later find out that we were wrong. Preparation for something that's likely (but really not necessary) is a fine idea especially when it doesn't cost any more.

I'd also much rather see some one get a rig with a safe sized main now that'll accomodate two sizes smaller than a parachute one or more sizes smaller than conservative because the rig they want will only go one size smaller or a rig that starts out on the small size which has them delegating to packers who won't be quite as attentive to things like frayed steering lines as an owner packing their own rig.

The Javelin may accommodate a larger range of main canopy sizes, due to the main closing loop being attached as it is. That accommodation comes at a price, as it screws up the geometry upon which the main closing flap depends. The Infinity has an extremely secure main flap closure, much more consistent than could be had with the Javelin style of main closing loop attachment location.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[bofh 0]

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The Javelin had a "tounge" (for the lack of a better word and/or understanding) that had the loop on it coming from the top of the packing tray. Under the reserve. The tounge had to be pulled over the bag, then through the same sequence (bottom, top, left, right).

All Javelins are like that. Most Wings are almost like that too - the tongue is fixed at the top too, but there is an option to fit the loop on the bottom flap. Its one more hole to pull the loop through, but on the other hand you can fit a larger span of canopies in the container and still have enough force on the loop/pin. I rather fit a larger range of canopies.

If you put the pullup cord through the loop before starting to pack or bag and either hold the pullup cord up or stick it under the reserve pilot cap, its just as easy putting the bag in the container.

[Remster 24]

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The Javelin had a "tounge" (for the lack of a better word and/or understanding) that had the loop on it coming from the top of the packing tray. Under the reserve. The tounge had to be pulled over the bag, then through the same sequence (bottom, top, left, right).

All Javelins are like that. Most Wings are almost like that too - the tongue is fixed at the top too, but there is an option to fit the loop on the bottom flap. Its one more hole to pull the loop through, but on the other hand you can fit a larger span of canopies in the container and still have enough force on the loop/pin. I rather fit a larger range of canopies.

If you put the pullup cord through the loop before starting to pack or bag and either hold the pullup cord up or stick it under the reserve pilot cap, its just as easy putting the bag in the container.

I would say, if that's the standard Infinity setup, it's more the oddball then the other way around.

I know several rigs offer that as an option (the loop attached to the bottom flap), but most rigs I come accross have the closing loop attached to an attachment point in the tray.

PS: nothing wrong with being an oddball!

Remster

[Bluhdow 31]

Thank you everyone for your input on the container - very much appreciated.

Any thoughts on main canopy selection? As I mentioned above I really like the Sabre and prefer it over both the Pulse and Spectre.

Anything else out there worth checking out that will fly similary to the Sabre?

The main reasons I like it more are:

1. Preference for 9 cell over 7 cell.
2. I have a slight aversion to the hybrid construction of the Pulse. It's not a deal breaker, but it's on my mind.

Thank you again!

Apex BASE
#1816

[likestojump 3]

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I have a slight aversion to the hybrid construction of the Pulse. It's not a deal breaker, but it's on my mind.

Why ?

your other popular contenders are the Pilot and the Safire2, although the Pilot is made with F111 ribs, so you may consider that hybrid as well.

[Bluhdow 31]

The hybrid style has gotten some mixed reviews from what I've seen. As with anything, some people love it and others do not.

My experience with it has been fine, but from what I can tell the point of debate has to do with it's longevity. Once again, it's not a deal breaker but this is just something that's on my mind.

I'll talk to my rigger about the Pilot and Safire2 as well. I'm sure he'll also have thoughts on the Pulse.

Thank you for your input.

Apex BASE
#1816

[likestojump 3]

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The hybrid style has gotten some mixed reviews from what I've seen. As with anything, some people love it and others do not.

My experience with it has been fine, but from what I can tell the point of debate has to do with it's longevity. Once again, it's not a deal breaker but this is just something that's on my mind.

I'll talk to my rigger about the Pilot and Safire2 as well. I'm sure he'll also have thoughts on the Pulse.

Thank you for your input.

Thank you for willing to provide your reasons for your decision. It's refreshing to have someone have THEIR OWN reasons as opposed to "so and so has told me so".

Just another data point for you to consider : You won't be hanging on to your first couple of canopies for too long, but at the same time you will still be very new at packing, so a hybrid (be it Pulse, or something else) is a very good combination of rock solid performance and much easier packing. Don't cheat yourself :) When I sell gear I am always excited to source a Silhouette (the most common hybrid out there) in the persons beginner rig, because I know they will be laughing at all the newbs at their DZ who got brand new slippery ZP canopies.

[davelepka 4]

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My experience with it has been fine, but from what I can tell the point of debate has to do with it's longevity

First and foremost, you're not going to jump your first canopy long enough to worry about longevity.

Beyond that, keep in mind that Navigator student canopies are built with Hybrid construction, and those canopies are jumped regularly for years on end with little problems.

Also, consider that canopies used to be built entirely from F-111, and there was never a problem with canopies not holding together because of it. True, they would lose performance based on the porosity going up, but a hybrid canopy takes care of that with the Z-po components that maintain the performance.

Anyone who tells you hybrid construction has 'longevity' issues is full of shit. Nobody has more experience with high use canopies than DZOs, and they wouldn't buy 1000's of Navigators if they didn't stand up to the test of time.

[LouDiamond 1]

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Anyone who tells you hybrid construction has 'longevity' issues is full of shit.

+1, thanks for summarizing it for me.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[Squeak 17]

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My experience with it has been fine, but from what I can tell the point of debate has to do with it's longevity

First and foremost, you're not going to jump your first canopy long enough to worry about longevity.

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this is the 2nd post in this thread stating this.
Eveyone on here is espousing the virtues of slow downsizing and then we commonly see this from the same people

Your 1st canopy should not be your starting point to race to the next.
Your 1st canopy should be the one where you dial in all your initial skills, get your accuracies (if needed) and sort your shit as fully as possible. BEFORE downsizing






I did over 400 jumps on my 1st canopy, 800 (so far on my 2nd)

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?