Radio instruction - can you tell them to cut away?

[stratostar 5]

Mr. Hicks, ya might wanna turn up your volume JUST a TAD! I mean if you want to cut it close dude, that's cool with me, just wanna keep ya posted!

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[peckerhead 0]

Nice recovery Mr. Hicks!

Wow, he's got a pretty good grip on that thing!

[JSBIRD 1]

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I know it's a little mealymouthed, but an alternative I've heard at a couple of DZs is "Exercise your emergency procedures."
HW

If I feel a student needs my input in this situation, that is my preferred instruction.

BASE359

"Now I've settled down,
in a quiet little town,
and forgot about everything"

[andm31 0]

First off I'm a complete newbie and I didn't have any radio during my first jumps.

During the ground training phase we spent a lot of time going over landings, landing patterns, practiced walking around (looking pretty stupid I might add
A couple of DZ's over here use radio but most don't. The thing is that I'm not that sure about the benefits of the radio. We were told to flare but we were also told that the first jump you WILL do a roll when you land, don't even think of trying to stand up, and pretty much all of us flared way to early but with a nice roll on the ground none got hurt.

When I stepped out of the plane, looked at the JM and nodded he just gave a signal and I jumped and from then on I knew I was on my own. I had to focus completely on checking, flying and landing the thing and I knew it was all up to me.

As Heather wrote earlier she was waiting for someone to tell her what to do and we don't have the same problem because you can't very well expect someone to say something without a radio, that doesn't mean that we won't hesitate about cutting away but we are all trained in what to do and should be able to do it on our own.

I think a big problem is that the radio tend to give a sense of false security ("someone will help me when the shit hits the fan"). I have a couple of instructors that have had malfunctions during their first jumps, just a couple weeks ago I saw a student first hand jump out of and the chute didn't deploy, it took him about four seconds the jumpmaster said then he cut away and pulled his reserve. We all talked about what happened that evening and the guy said that he thought about it very soberly, he noticed pretty fast that his chute didn't deploy and then he just knew he had to cut and pull his reserve.

My two cents (or öre as they ar called over here )

Blue skies!

Anders Samuelsson
www.anderssamuelsson.se

[stratostar 5]

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I think a big problem is that the radio tend to give a sense of false security

A smart instructor teaches class and don't train for the radio or even bring it up unless asked about it, at that point I always say, " I teach you do to do this on your own without any help from the ground, radios fail, battries die and you have to know how to get down on your own".

Most insturctors I know train like this.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[andm31 0]

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A smart instructor teaches class and don't train for the radio or even bring it up unless asked about it, at that point I always say, " I teach you do to do this on your own without any help from the ground, radios fail, battries die and you have to know how to get down on your own".

Most insturctors I know train like this.

Absolutely and that is great but since my field, background and proffession is people (psychology and currently working as a family counselor) I'm not that convinced that it works by just telling people that the radio is a bonus and that batteries fail and that sort of thing because most people don't think about things in that way.

For instance, we know that people always somehow evaluate the odds of something happening (like the radio dying, or the car breaking down, or ending up in some sort of accident) the problem is that we are pretty much worthless at doing it... why would otherwise people speed down the highway? Ride horses? Swoop or whatever, we underestimate things where the danger isn't that clear. (yeah I know swooping is a bad example as it, at least to me, seems awfully dangerous)
So I think, that unless you have some pretty good hands on experience of radio equipment failing you'll underestimate the odds of that happening.

Another example, during training they keep repeating to us a good skydiver doesn't get surprised when he/she has a malfunction, he/she gets surprised when he hasn't got one, which is a great thing to say. But I'm not entirely convinced that a lot of skydivers think that way, don't get me wrong I know a couple of great skydivers that do think that way.

If you talk to people on the radio you have built in an expectation of just that happening and switching from 1) somone will help me and guide me over the radio to 2) I'll have to sort this thing out on my own will most probably happen it's just a matter of how long it will take to switch from one mode to another and sometimes time just isn't on our side

in the end I believe that radio can be a good aid but if we are going to use it we should practice using it a lot on the ground and also practice with scenarios where the radio fails when we are training with it on the ground. So that when the student is spinning and needs to switch from listening mode to I have to sort this out my self-mode it won't take too long of a time.

(of course by practicing it on the ground we also raise the expectation levels of it working so it's a tricky balance)

Blue skies!

Anders Samuelsson
www.anderssamuelsson.se

[billvon 2,409]

>A smart instructor teaches class and don't train for the radio or even
>bring it up unless asked about it . . .

I don't avoid talking about radios. Students do what they are trained to do, and if you don't train them to properly respond to a radio they may not. It's not like they're going to forget they have the things in their ears.

[stratostar 5]

We use a parasim in our training and I want the student to know from the start to do it on their own from the first jump. This was started because the radios were shit and failed 50% of the time or more. I have had not problem with students landing in the main LZ and getting soft landings with out any radio help at all, I see no reason to fix something that is not broken.

Students spend their class time learning how to fly a prarchute, instead of thinking someone will be there to hold their hand via radio, if trained right they don't need no stinking radio! It's like relying on an RSL or AAD it's there to a do a job, but may fail. When the radio do work (we have nice new ones now) they follow the directions just fine.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[billvon 2,409]

>if trained right they don't need no stinking radio!

I agree. It's a backup, just like an AAD or an RSL.

>It's like relying on an RSL or AAD it's there to a do a job, but may fail.

Also correct. But I assume you do not neglect to tell them that they have an AAD or an RSL! Not knowing how such things work can cause them serious problems.

[stratostar 5]

I tell them about when one it get's put the chest strap or if asked about it in class, I explain they will be trained how to do without and then I move on, beause it is a waste of time to dwell on it. The time spent in the parasim takes the class room CC and moves it in to real time and a virtual jump world and canopy control, we have had great success in using this training tool and have landed many students on the main LZ with no help via radio, because they did over & over in real time. I would rather spend my time traching them how to do it on their own and do it safe in class room and in the sim, then teaching someone to listen to a radio and build a false sence of security that they don't have to learn what the hell to do because "we'll be talking them down". Seen more then one person not take serious canopy control because they were told they have a radio and not to worrie someone will be talking them down.

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But I assume you do not neglect to tell them that they have an AAD or an RSL!

Your correct.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Floats18 0]

Where were you hiding the parasim when you were teaching me how to skydive, jackass?

That summer we had a guy try and run down the VOR in the middle of the corn... had another try and take out an electric power supply... and another drug the blue javelin across the runway. If I recall the dude who went for the VOR said he heard his instructor right well and thought he did a great job!

HEY MAN, IF YOU WANT TO BURN IT DOWN LOW ITS COOL WITH ME!!

--- and give them wings so they may fly free forever

DiverDriver in Training

[stratostar 5]

We had to keep it hid from you and the rest of the Prudue U dillholes, cuz you guys can't keep from tearing up equipment or even follow basic instructions,

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That summer we had a guy try and run down the VOR in the middle of the corn... had another try and take out an electric power supply... and another drug the blue javelin across the runway. If I recall the dude who went for the VOR said he heard his instructor right well and thought he did a great job!

See what I mean, why do you think we had your fellow retards from Prudue U training the rest of the retards like you......

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Floats18 0]

Dumbass Redneck

Tell my little bro I said HEY

--- and give them wings so they may fly free forever

DiverDriver in Training

[stratostar 5]

How did you get to be such a smartass, oh yet runs in the family..... Now shut up already!

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[riggerrob 558]

I am with Strato star on this one.

I teach the entire lecture on canopy control, before mentioning radios.
If students don't expect to hear a radio, they listen better and retain more.

I don't mention RSLs.

AADs tend to get ignored or described as "jump counters."
If so smart-aleck student has already heard of AADs, I remind them that "AADs will not save your life during all types of malfunctions, so plan on pulling your own release handle and following through with your reserve ripcord."

[frazeebd 0]

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I don't mention RSLs.

AADs tend to get ignored or described as "jump counters."

As a brandy new skydiver and recent student, I don't pretend to know the stresses you instructor types are under, especially dealing with the many different types of people and temperaments that come through the training pipeline. In fact I've quoted myself many times saying that you wouldn't find ME riding shotgun along a first jump student, with no idea whether or not he is going to totally freak right after exit...

That being said, I can't condone the above mentality... I do understand the need for forceful reinforcement of the DECISION - CUTAWAY - RESERVE RIPCORD mentality... as one of my jumpmasters likes to say, skydiving is the ultimate experiment in self-reliance... but to intentionally omit pertinent information regarding the equipment that will be strapped to a person's back, when he will be alone during his journey back to earth is a mistake that could cause more damage that its worth.

For example, I was very much a fan of the training program at skydive elsinore... I will forever recommend my instructor there to anyone who values my opinion. My only real critique on the program is that certain information got left out of the program (specifically things like cloud cover requirements and the specifics to the operation of the RSL)... it wasn't intentional I am certain, however it just got left out... and then on level 2, the instructor did a review but didn't cover those things... then on level 3, that instructor likely assumed those things were covered in level 1 and did cursory checks on things... and so on and so forth, until I was way into my solo jumps (like jump 19 or so?) and was talking about my upcoming license jump when I was asked about something I didn't know and should have...

How many students have been affected by this type of thing? Has it caused any injuries? Who knows... but then again, can anyone say for certain that a student is alive and kicking today because his instructor told him an AAD was a jump counter?

We did more emergency procedure drills than I care to remember during my school, and I understand why. To that extent, the bottom line was before my first jump, when my instructor looked straight at every student in the class and asked a direct question, to which he required a firm answer, which was,
"Can you do this to save you're own life?"

This is obviously a highly opinionated topic with good arguments all around, but I am a firm believer that a solid understanding of all safety equipment and safety procedures is exreme sports 101, and to deceive or misinform on this subject is inexcusable.

Thank you for you're time.

[stratostar 5]

It will be interesting to hear your thoughts after you get an instructors rating and have trained many many large classes of FJC's.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[frazeebd 0]

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It will be interesting to hear your thoughts after you get an instructors rating and have trained many many large classes of FJC's.

Well you have me cornered there

BUT, there are many activities and places in the world that require discipline, self-reliance, and prompt, correct action to prevent catastrophe... and unlike skydiving, some of those activities I am intimately familiar with, especially from an instructor standpoint.

I merely wish to say that the instructor who taught my school managed to cover the purpose of the AAD and RSL, yet still got it into our thick, novice shaped skulls that the reserve ripcord is the only correct answer. I would hate to believe that someone had withheld information from me in an effort to protect me from myself.
But let me turn this around a bit to a consctructive direction then... have you ever had feedback about it? Have any students come up to you later and mentioned that they a) wished you hadn't kept info from them or b) were glad you did?

[stratostar 5]

The only info I don't cover unless asked is the radio, and yes I have had students VERY thankful I trained them to do on their own, this info has been said to me in person as well as the survey's that the DZO has handed out for the last 5 years.

However I have been considering reducing the amount of info I provide to a FJC about the RSL, after having a number of students confused about it. Mostly the release part. We have a indepth training tape followed by live review of the whole system. 90% of students understand, it's the 10% that slow down the class.

So I tend to understand (maybe) why RR said this, but he can speak for him self.

Now me I can see just covering the basic of it's function (rsl pulls ripcord cable if you cutaway, as long as it is hooked up right, don't count on it to save you!) and leaving the "advanced functions" for "continude education" meaning those who return to do progression. This would cutdown on brain overload of a FJC student. It's kind of like learning how a carb works or learning how a carb works & how to rebuild one.

While this only something I have been thinking about, not doing, I teach per the sims and ISP, but may in the future revise how and what I teach about RSL's in the FJC class in the next season,????, the season is winding down here so I may take the winter to talk to others I's as I travel this winter.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[billvon 2,409]

> It will be interesting to hear your thoughts after you get an instructors
>rating and have trained many many large classes of FJC's.

I've trained around 1500 students and I definitely cover RSL's and AAD's. I feel that it's better that they understand what their gear will do, even if it makes them think odd things. In addition, I would want to know (as a student) how such things work - so it seems fair to cover it when I am teaching students who might very well be like me.

A third aspect is that their AAD could well kill them, if they deploy their main at 700 feet. If that happens because I told them what to do and they screwed up, I can live with that. If that happens because I neglected to tell them how the AAD works - that's a bit harder to live with.

But that's just me.

[stratostar 5]

I don't leave out AAD's or RSL's for the record. However as I said I might agree with riggerrob's point of view, that IDK yet he has not posted his point of view, ie why he said that yet.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Ether 0]

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...certain information got left out of the program (specifically things like cloud cover requirements and the specifics to the operation of the RSL)... it wasn't intentional I am certain, however it just got left out... and then on level 2, the instructor did a review but didn't cover those things... then on level 3, that instructor likely assumed those things were covered in level 1 and did cursory checks on things... and so on and so forth, until I was way into my solo jumps (like jump 19 or so?) and was talking about my upcoming license jump when I was asked about something I didn't know and should have...

I experienced the same thing, which I attributed to switching instructors several times during my progression (based on who was not busy doing tandems, as well as some instructors moving to another DZ for the summer). I took this as an opportunity to take charge of my own education.. ask lots of questions about gear, procedures, lurk during various rigging procedures, read as much as I could.. Definitely someone in my place who expected to be spoon-fed everything would have come up deficient, but I didn't feel I was missing out.

I should note however that emergency procedures were NOT omitted. But I do agree that to dump too much information on a student too soon can lead to information overload and the most vital knowledge being lost.

Looking for newbie rig, all components...

[riggerrob 558]

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I don't leave out AAD's or RSL's for the record. However as I said I might agree with riggerrob's point of view, that IDK yet he has not posted his point of view, ie why he said that yet.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Part of the reason - that I avoid telling FJC students about AADs and radios - is to avoid over-loading them.
IOW I "dumb down" the FJC to "must know" information.

Also, I do not want them depending upon imperfect equipment.
Radios were miserably unreliable when I started instructing - back in 1982 - so only fools trusted radios.

Similarly, RSLs do not pull ripcords EVERY time.
Even Bill Booth will tell you that the Swedish Snap shackle is the weak link in every RSL design. I have seen stainless steel Swedish Snap Shackles accidentally dis-connected during dozens of tandem jumps ... something about them snagging on the side of my Pro-Tec helmet.

In conclusion, when my student suffers a malfunction, the ONLY thing I want going through his mind is "Look red, grab red, look silver, grab silver, pull red, pull silver, arch some more."

[stratostar 5]

Thanks for adding your input, we are then on the same page K.I.S.S. (keep it simple stupid) As I posted above, the more detailed info belongs in the progression, just not on jump one.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[andm31 0]

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Now me I can see just covering the basic of it's function (rsl pulls ripcord cable if you cutaway, as long as it is hooked up right, don't count on it to save you!) and leaving the "advanced functions" for "continude education" meaning those who return to do progression. This would cutdown on brain overload of a FJC student. It's kind of like learning how a carb works or learning how a carb works & how to rebuild one.

Our instructors spoke a lot about when to disconnect the RSL, how it works and such but they never actually showed us how to disconnect it! Ok, it's not rocket science but still, I had no idea of how to do it and had never done it before going up and doing any of my training jumps, in fact it was after I was done and had my license that my attention shifted to it and I figured out how to disconnect it...

Man if I had taught my classes as a teacher the way my skydiving training was handled... but I guess we still learned the basics, maybe because falling towards immenent death will make you pretty attentive!

Blue skies!

Anders Samuelsson
www.anderssamuelsson.se