to cut-away or not?

[Feeblemind 1]

I thought I would share an incident that happened to me yesterday. Knowledge is power and since I have been completing my coach requirements and assisting an AFF-I with FJC I thought someone might be able to learn from this.

Yesterday after completing my coach rating I was asked to fly camera on a RW four-way. The jump was uneventful, break off was at 4,000 and I pulled in place as this was the dive plan. I looked up it was there and square but then things changed. I pulled on the toggles to perform a control check and the left toggle was locked in place. WTF?? I yanked hard a few times but it wasn't going to budge. Altitude was above 3000 so I chose to see I could correct the issue while holding right toggle pressure to keep flying straight. I tried a variety of things to try and get the toggle unstowed, but due to my packing error there was no way this toggle was going to release. Altitude was 2400, I looked at the cut-away handle but I wanted to see if I could control the canopy and if it was safe to land. I took 3 wraps on the right toggle and I was now flying in a straight line in brakes. I pulled hard on the rear risers and I deemed I could fly and land on the rear risers. Well I am now at 2000 feet with three wraps around my right hand (boy that felt nice ). I entered the pattern and on final I yelled to the others on the ground I had an issue and was on rear risers. I prepared for my PLF, pulled hard on the rear risers at about 10 feet. made a slight turn to the right and PLF'd missing the peas by about a foot to the right.

I walked away from the landing with a bruise to my right knee, a dirty container and a hurt ego (I somehow looped my steering line through an A-line causing the problem)

I continued to jump through out the day and I continued to question whether or not I should have cut-away. I currently fly a pilot 210 and the canopy was controllable and landable. Yes I spent some time and altitude evaluating my situation, but I committed to landing the canopy prior to my decision altitude. If I would have been spinning, diving or having any other issue I would have cut-away immediately.

What I learned:
1) Be vigilant when packing.

2) When an undesirable situation occurs, keep calm, remember your Ep's and make a decision by your decision altitude.

3) Remember your training! By performing a PLF I prevented from getting broken! (thanks Eddie, Kieth and all my other mentors)


Feel free to chime in, this was ALL my fault. I packed it, I jumped it.

Fire Safety Tip: Don't fry bacon while naked

[EvilLurker 2]

Sounds like something I'd do, not that that makes it "right". Glad it worked out okay. One foot from the peas, huh? Heh..heh.

[MB38 0]

You walked away from it, so it couldn't have been a terrible decision. The biggest risk seems to lie in the mystical knot that was holding the toggle in place. If it suddenly popped itself out at 100 feet, the three wraps could've made this into a nasty turn.

But you have a better idea of how the toggle was hung up than I. I'm just guessing [jump numbers...].

I really don't know what I'm talking about.

[AFFI 0]

Personally? I would have cutaway and deployed my reserve for this one but I am rather conservative when it comes to situations on my main that could change and get worse once lower to the ground. I trust my reserve totally. Have you had a reserve ride yet? There have been a couple instances where I have discovered jumpers with a few jumps under their belts and they did not have any trust in their reserves - that being the only reason they decided to land a canopy with problems that either have or may have cost them injury or worse. How bad does bad have to be to be “forced” to use your reserve? Building trust in your reserve in important, I sure would hate to be at 100 feet with a problem that worsens and cost me bigtime when I could have decided to trust my reserve at a safe cutaway altitude.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[peckerhead 0]

Nice job!

You should never cut-away if you don't need to. Remember, the reserve is ALSO a parachute and it could ALSO malfunction. A toggle problem on your main that is identifyable is usually not that big of a deal.

If you can control it, you can land it.

It's a fine line...
You don't ever want to use your reserve if you don't need to. But, you don't want to be afraid to use it if you HAVE to.

When in doubt whip it out!

[phoenixlpr 0]

I think you made your decision and thats not questionable.

I'd rather cut it away.


I know from experience that even an uncollapsed PC render my landing to funny from soft. I'm not sure if I want to try if one brake is set, other is in unknown position and I have to play with rear risers....

[tustinr 1]

Agree with peckerhead ! I probably would have done the same as you did provided the problem was identified and I knew that toggle was NOT going to release (which apparently you did). I don't jump a small canopy with a high wing loading by the way.

Rich

---------------------------------------
Everything that happens to you in life is your teacher. The secret is to learn to sit at the feet of your life and be taught.

[LukeOliver 0]

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If you can control it, you can land it.

Someone needs to clarify "control" for this thread... bet there's already a thread which itemises "Controllability check".

Food for thought:

Being able to make the parachute fly in a straight line does not constitute control

I wouldn't have landed this one, but I'm pretty heavily loaded these days. I did once land a broken brake line on a square, but that was loaded at 0.65:1. Parachute Landing Rolls remain a worthwhile technique.

As far as reserves go... 4 chops from 4 tandems (thinking that should count as 8 somehow). So, in my experience, reserves can be relied upon to work.

But whilst I'm here, the lesson I learnt from the last two malfunctions was really simple - "Don't put up with jumping other people's tired old crap" - they were the same malfunction, on the same tired old canopy, that the owner was too cheap to fix the first time. Twice I had one last chance with two people's lives because of a clear problem which we had to "put up with for another few hundred jumps". The owner netted enough cash from rig hire between the two malfunctions to purchase, say, a small four cylinder car.

I have also retired one of my students from the sport for landing something I described in their first jump course as a "low speed malfunction, corrective action Emergency Procedures". At "A" license, you can discuss situations whilst negotiating responses with your instructors, not before
L.

[AFFI 0]

Quote

Nice job!
You should never cut-away if you don't need to. Remember, the reserve is ALSO a parachute and it could ALSO malfunction. A toggle problem on your main that is identifyable is usually not that big of a deal.
If you can control it, you can land it.
It's a fine line...
You don't ever want to use your reserve if you don't need to. But, you don't want to be afraid to use it if you HAVE to.

When in doubt whip it out!

These are contradictory statements or at the least they are not clearly defined as to “when to say when” other than to say “when in doubt”. So if you never need to cut away if you do not need to, yet you have a problem that is leaving you in doubt -which is it? How much doubt? Is 90% good enough when my life is at stake when I have a perfectly good reserve on my back that has a higher than 99% potential of opening cleanly enough to easily survive the landing? I know skydivers who got introduced to their femurs that would argue that a toggle problem as you described has the potential to be a very “big deal”. Something else to take into account is what may not be considered a “big deal” to a skydiver with thousands of jumps might be a little more difficult for a skydiver with only a few hundred jumps to properly deal with and make the correct decisions in the event of unforeseen occurrences (footnote: when I had a mere 300 jumps, in my mind I had a lot more experience than I do now with over 3300 and daily training as a USPA Solo Freefall instructor, this is a good sport to remain humble in). There is no way you could have known for a 100% FACT that the toggle may not have released low to the ground, or that the wrapped side of the canopy could not have stalled, or how it would have reacted and a dramatic wind change low to the ground - or for that matter that the reserve may have in fact malfunctioned. Malfunctioning reserves are few and far between, injured skydivers whose injuries resulted from attempting to land a main with a problem are MUCH MUCH MUCH more common than a malfunctioning reserve. There was a time in my skydiving career (described as a career as it has been my full time vocation for over 5 years) when I was much less conservative in my decision making concerning issues such as the one we are discussing. After witnessing first hand how violent bad landings can be, after witnessing first hand a friend laying in a field with bones sticking out of their body and piss and shit in their pants hearing gurgling sounds as they drown on their own blood, when all they had to do to prevent their predicament was by getting a reserve over their head has left an undeniable impression in my mind that has encouraged my current and long standing commitment to a conservative attitude when it comes to skydiving safety. This sport, although statically safe is immensely unforgiving and I believe that a lot of skydivers loose sight of how dangerous this sport really is and how easily a skydiver who has made a poor decision can get unbelievably maimed and not only killed, but killed in a fashion that is not a quick kind death but rather one that leaves the skydiver clinging to life in ICU for weeks or months before finally dying, or worse still – like my recently injured friend who will never feel or move any appendage below his neck again, but was not lucky enough (in his case) to die. Like my friend that hit the ground so violently I actually FELT the concussion hit my face the length of a football field away. Although I miss that person, although I did not wish to witness a friend die sometimes we need the sacrificial lamb to show others how dramatic the result of poor decision making can be and how extremely violent a bad landing can actually be. In skydiving there is a fine line between “Stunning Gracefulness” and “Indescribably Brutal”…

I am only sharing with you my experience and my perspective based on that which I have witnessed and have been exposed to over my course of active skydiving. I personally have not been in “doubt” for 7 years and over 2700 skydives but when the time comes when I am in doubt, I will trust my reserve…

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[Feeblemind 1]

I have read these comments carefully and I have come to the conclusion that being in the exact same situation again I would cut-away.

For those that had concerns that this toggle would become free, no friggin' way was it going to release. Me being a dumbass somehow routed the steering line through some of my "A" lines. The toggle was locked in place by my fat ass hanging under the parachute. With that said Mr. Murphy was already doing a Mr. Bill with me on this skydive, he could have brokent the line for me.

AFFI I hear what your saying LOUD and CLEAR (PM if you like) I made a decision at the time and I wanted to post it here so I as well as others could learn. Hind sight is a good learning tool, but in a sport as unforgiving as this the time of reflection could be a painful one.

Fire Safety Tip: Don't fry bacon while naked

[mattlyle 0]

I had a broken brake line and landed it on rears... even stood up the landing. But I went through the same decision process at 2500' to decide to chop it or not. Fun, huh?

Now it's kind of fun to purposely land on nothing but rear risers just to be prepared if it happens again. Loaded a little heavier now (the broken brake line was on like WL of 1.1) so it's a bit trickier, but it's a good skill to have I think.

[AFFI 0]

Quote

I had a broken brake line and landed it on rears... even stood up the landing. But I went through the same decision process at 2500' to decide to chop it or not. Fun, huh?.

Inquiry:
When the canopy inflated with a broken control line I suspect that it should have sent you into a turning dive much like a premature brake release would have - was this the case?

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[AFFI 0]

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Mr. Murphy was already doing a Mr. Bill with me on this skydive.

One of the COOLEST comments I have ever read! Hope you do not mind if I steal it and add it to my vocabulary?

[mattlyle 0]

Quote

Inquiry:
When the canopy inflated with a broken control line I suspect that it should have sent you into a turning dive much like a premature brake release would have - was this the case?

The canopy opened hard... much harder than normal, and when I looked up the right brake line was still stowed and the left had snapped where it's finger trapped. So I don't know if the hard opening broke it, or the hard opening was caused by it.

But I don't remember the turn being that bad to be honest... I realized almost immediately what was going on and released the other brake to stop the spin and then started seeing if I could steer and land the canopy and then make decisons about cutting away.

I've since had premature brake releases on newer, smaller canopies and they are pretty crazy spins almost immediately, but on only a 1.1 WL it wasn't that bad. On the new canopy it would have been a nice fun spinner....

[AFFI 0]

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I realized almost immediately what was going on and released the other brake to stop the spin reply]

Ok, Thanks. It is just that I teach my students that it would make sense that a broken control line would react pretty much like a premature brake relaese - just wanted to ensure I am delivering correct information...

Thanks...

• Quote

[mattlyle 0]

Yup. It was on a Lotus 190, loaded around 1.1, so a fairly docile canopy. It was in a spin, but a pretty slow spin. I recently had a premature brake fire on opening on a Crossfire2 139 which was way more violent... spun up 5/6 times and took me over 1500 feet to fix it. If I would have seen it was a snapped brake line, I would have chopped it immediately. But on that Lotus which handled wonderfully, I was confident I could land it safely (maybe not gracefully, but not the point!) so I made the decision to not cut it away.

It's all a confidence thing. I think the person just needs to do what feels right to them, not always what they've been told. They just need to make a rational decision, trust their decision and go with it. I was confident I could land it, so I did. I would hesitate telling anyone what to do in this situation... if the person is freaked out about landing a minor malfunction, they should cut away. I felt I had a handle on the situation and proceeded down that road.

[nicknitro71 0]

Cuttingaway is fun...that would have been a great excuse to do it. In a situation like that I don't have to cutaway because I think I could land it safely but I would just for the fun of it. How's that for politically incorrect?

Memento Audere Semper

903

[goose491 0]

I'd say job well done.

You noticed the problem, did a controllability check, decided it was flyable/landable all before the hard deck (what's your harddeck btw?)

You prepared for the landing and landed without major injury.

Nice job, why cutaway a flyable/landable canopy? Well as one already pointed out, the one major concern is if the knot came undone at say 100ft and turned your compensation input into a screw-ya-into-tha-ground input , but only you have all the facts as far as that one is concerned.

No regrets.

Nick

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[AFFI 0]

Quote

I'd say job well done.
You noticed the problem, did a controllability check, decided it was flyable/landable all before the hard deck (what's your harddeck btw?)
You prepared for the landing and landed without major injury.
Nice job, why cutaway a flyable/landable canopy? Well as one already pointed out, the one major concern is if the knot came undone at say 100ft and turned your compensation input into a screw-ya-into-tha-ground input , but only you have all the facts as far as that one is concerned.
No regrets.
Nick

I would agree to the nice job part due to the fact of landing without serious injury. The knot coming loose was not the only concern, there is no way you could have known for a 100% FACT that the toggle may not have released low to the ground, or that the wrapped side of the canopy could not have stalled, or how it would have reacted and a dramatic wind change low to the ground I.E. downdrafts and the such. Just because a canopy passes the check at a safe altitude does not mean it will continue to be fully controllable all the way to the ground. The way I read the opening string in this thread there was doubt, how much can only be known by the skydiver under that canopy at that moment, but doubt none the less, otherwise there would be no reason to shout out to friends on the ground that there was potential trouble afoot.

Perhaps I am overconfident in my reserve which by the way is a PD reserve which was packed and re-packed by the most experienced and attention to detail paying rigger I have ever had the pleasure of meeting. I trust my reserve totally, there is no doubt in my mind that I have any other reason to not trust it – that being said I agree, why cutaway a perfectly safe to land main canopy, if in FACT it is SAFE to land and I have landed a canopy with a problem a time or two. I guess we are talking about the lesser of two evils (if you would want to call a brand new PD reserve an evil), and we are talking about judgment. They say good judgment comes from bad decision making but in skydiving how many bad decisions are we allowed making?

I would never advocate suggesting to any skydiver of any experience level that they land a main when doubt in their ability to safely land is in question. But then again, I just treat others based on what I myself would do and I for one want to make it home tonight and kiss my dinner and eat my wife…

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[goose491 0]

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I would never advocate suggesting to any skydiver of any experience level that they land a main when doubt in their ability to safely land is in question.

I'm not sure if you think that's what I was suggesting, but for the record, it was not.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[billvon 2,435]

>why cutaway a perfectly safe to land main canopy, if in FACT it is SAFE to land . . .

I don't think the issue in question is whether you should cut away a canopy that is in fact safe to land. Nor is the question should you cut away a canopy that cannot be landed safely. The question is - what do you do if you're not 100% sure, when your canopy falls between those two extremes?

And I think the only reasonable answer is "it depends." If you open your parachute and it feels funny - turns a little bit more in one direction - what's wrong with it? Has it just blown an upper seam that you can't see, and it's getting worse and worse? Or are you just sitting in the harness funny? In most cases, people who open and notice that their canopy seems to have acquired a built-in turn are going to land it unless there are other problems. And indeed, experience has shown that some canopies _do_ have built-in turns, and minor problems like changing line trim or unevenly weighted harnesses can cause turns as well.

So you have to weigh the odds of landing your main safely against the small chance of a reserve mal. Reserves can malfunction even if properly assembled, maintained, packed and operated. Does the main have a minor problem that does not affect its controllability much, and it isn't getting worse? Then it might make sense to land it. What if it _is_ getting worse? Then it might be a better idea to not wait until 500 feet to see how bad it gets. As always, this decision is up to the individual jumper. And it's not always a slam dunk, because no two openings, jumps, minor or major malfunctions, or reserve deployments are quite the same.

[Feeblemind 1]

Quote

Quote

Mr. Murphy was already doing a Mr. Bill with me on this skydive.

One of the COOLEST comments I have ever read! Hope you do not mind if I steal it and add it to my vocabulary?

Yes feel free to use at will.

I am pleased this topic has generated such positive comments and opinions on how to deal with this type of situation. I spent the morning with a friend who happens to be a AFFI and master rigger. He very politely chewed my ass and sited NUMEROUS things that could have complicated my attempt to land this canopy. They ranged from the toggle to releasing while on final, someone crossing in front of me on fnal, a puff of cross wind, the right side of the canopy stalling during rear riser flare etc etc. etc. All of these changes could have made the outcome most undesirable. Needless to say should I have this type of mal again its gonna cost me a ew bucks for a re-pack.


Phil

Fire Safety Tip: Don't fry bacon while naked

[skyzures 0]

hmm, I'm highly inexperienced (approaching my 100th jump, yeah, getting the beers soon...) hence forgive me for the stupid question. My intuitive response to the initial post was, use the knife to cut the stuck toggle, leave the other one and land with the back risers. Surprisingly this option never came up in this discussion. I suppose there's a good reason for not doing so, and I'll be more than happy to know it :)

[phoenixlpr 0]

Quote

My intuitive response to the initial post was, use the knife to cut the stuck toggle, leave the other one and land with the back risers.

IMHO slice and dice won't help you. Your canopy would be in full flight, but you can not flare with brakes.

[AFFI 0]

Quote

I don't think the issue in question is whether you should cut away a canopy that is in fact safe to land. Nor is the question should you cut away a canopy that cannot be landed safely. The question is - what do you do if you're not 100% sure, when your canopy falls between those two extremes?
And I think the only reasonable answer is "it depends." If you open your parachute and it feels funny - turns a little bit more in one direction - what's wrong with it? Has it just blown an upper seam that you can't see, and it's getting worse and worse? Or are you just sitting in the harness funny? In most cases, people who open and notice that their canopy seems to have acquired a built-in turn are going to land it unless there are other problems. And indeed, experience has shown that some canopies _do_ have built-in turns, and minor problems like changing line trim or unevenly weighted harnesses can cause turns as well.
So you have to weigh the odds of landing your main safely against the small chance of a reserve mal. Reserves can malfunction even if properly assembled, maintained, packed and operated. Does the main have a minor problem that does not affect its controllability much, and it isn't getting worse? Then it might make sense to land it. What if it _is_ getting worse? Then it might be a better idea to not wait until 500 feet to see how bad it gets. As always, this decision is up to the individual jumper. And it's not always a slam dunk, because no two openings, jumps, minor or major malfunctions, or reserve deployments are quite the same.

Thanks for the great insight Bill, as always your knowledge contributes to making me a better informed skydiver...you said so well what I was trying too...

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…