Pro's and cons of different cut-away and reserve handles

[nigel99 151]

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I like the idea of a positive-grip handle. I don't like pillows on either side.

You have that nice, soft, flexible cutaway handle. I see a greater potential for snag than if it was a D-ring that stays snug against the body.

Anyone care to comment on why NOT a D-ring on both sides?

Just to split the discussion from the incidents thread.

What is the history for the pillow cutaway handle?

Back in the day the main was deployed with a ripcord, so there might have been logic to not having 3 D-ring handles on the early piggyback systems. It would make sense that you didn't want to confuse the right hand side main ripcord with the cut-away handle.

Snag hazards are obviously a consideration - you don't want to cutaway by mistake at 100 foot. But the dynamics of a cutaway have changed over the past 20 or 30 years. High WL create greater G-forces that have created the need for hard-riser inserts and other problems such as people struggling to cut-away.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[sundevil777 94]

I believe you've got it right that the pad was considered at first because it was something different than the ripcord and not likely snagged. If you search on Bill Booth's posts, I'm sure you'll find him explaining the development and rationale in some detail.

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But the dynamics of a cutaway have changed over the past 20 or 30 years. High WL create greater G-forces that have created the need for hard-riser inserts and other problems such as people struggling to cut-away.

Mini risers are also a contributor to how it has become more difficult to cutaway under such high g scenarios.

Mini 3-rings have higher cutaway forces than the std large rings. The difference is significant, and even the Aerodyne miniforce system doesn't match the low cutaway force (see attachment, I think it came from a post of Bill Booth many years ago). I don't know if the force on the chart is per side or total.

For the sake of a little less drag and weight, it takes a lot more to cutaway. Add in the very real possibility that your risers may not be made quite to the standard (mfg tolerances are more critical for mini rings) and this can also increase the required force. So, I think it is important to talk about this as one of the contributors to high cutaway forces.

My 2 cutaways with std/large 3 rings have been really easy to do with one hand, and can't understand how so few (especially heavier jumpers) choose the larger rings.

Getting back to the original thread subject, I am a big fan of handles that have a big hole in them (such as soft loop cutaway and metal reserve). I also love my low profile reserve handle, it is much less obtrusive but still extremely easy to find and use (proven in battle conditions). I would consider such a handle for my cutaway if it had a greater distinction from my reserve (see attachments). Even if my hand/arm/body/brain is injured, using such handles is much easier. Even if I'm stupid enough to use ski type gloves with that are horrible for use with soft pillows, it is not such a problem for handles with a big hole.

I find it interesting that freeflyers are so keen to not have a metal reserve handle, as they so seldom come in contact with each other.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[nigel99 151]

Quote

I believe you've got it right that the pad was considered at first because it was something different than the ripcord and not likely snagged. If you search on Bill Booth's posts, I'm sure you'll find him explaining the development and rationale in some detail.

Quote

But the dynamics of a cutaway have changed over the past 20 or 30 years. High WL create greater G-forces that have created the need for hard-riser inserts and other problems such as people struggling to cut-away.

Mini risers are also a contributor to how it has become more difficult to cutaway under such high g scenarios.

Mini 3-rings have higher cutaway forces than the std large rings. The difference is significant, and even the Aerodyne miniforce system doesn't match the low cutaway force (see attachment, I think it came from a post of Bill Booth many years ago). I don't know if the force on the chart is per side or total.

For the sake of a little less drag and weight, it takes a lot more to cutaway. Add in the very real possibility that your risers may not be made quite to the standard (mfg tolerances are more critical for mini rings) and this can also increase the required force. So, I think it is important to talk about this as one of the contributors to high cutaway forces.

My 2 cutaways with std/large 3 rings have been really easy to do with one hand, and can't understand how so few (especially heavier jumpers) choose the larger rings.

Getting back to the original thread subject, I am a big fan of handles that have a big hole in them (such as soft loop cutaway and metal reserve). I also love my low profile reserve handle, it is much less obtrusive but still extremely easy to find and use (proven in battle conditions). I would consider such a handle for my cutaway if it had a greater distinction from my reserve (see attachments). Even if my hand/arm/body/brain is injured, using such handles is much easier. Even if I'm stupid enough to use ski type gloves with that are horrible for use with soft pillows, it is not such a problem for handles with a big hole.

I find it interesting that freeflyers are so keen to not have a metal reserve handle, as they so seldom come in contact with each other.

Interesting chart. I assume that having a higher cutaway force reduces the chance of an accidental cutaway with a D ring style handle. I would worry that a fabric handle could bunch up or twist in such a way that it is difficult to use - but I've only seen the photos. What benefit do they have over a metal D ring?

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[sundevil777 94]

Quote

Quote

I believe you've got it right that the pad was considered at first because it was something different than the ripcord and not likely snagged. If you search on Bill Booth's posts, I'm sure you'll find him explaining the development and rationale in some detail.

Quote

But the dynamics of a cutaway have changed over the past 20 or 30 years. High WL create greater G-forces that have created the need for hard-riser inserts and other problems such as people struggling to cut-away.

Mini risers are also a contributor to how it has become more difficult to cutaway under such high g scenarios.

Mini 3-rings have higher cutaway forces than the std large rings. The difference is significant, and even the Aerodyne miniforce system doesn't match the low cutaway force (see attachment, I think it came from a post of Bill Booth many years ago). I don't know if the force on the chart is per side or total.

For the sake of a little less drag and weight, it takes a lot more to cutaway. Add in the very real possibility that your risers may not be made quite to the standard (mfg tolerances are more critical for mini rings) and this can also increase the required force. So, I think it is important to talk about this as one of the contributors to high cutaway forces.

My 2 cutaways with std/large 3 rings have been really easy to do with one hand, and can't understand how so few (especially heavier jumpers) choose the larger rings.

Getting back to the original thread subject, I am a big fan of handles that have a big hole in them (such as soft loop cutaway and metal reserve). I also love my low profile reserve handle, it is much less obtrusive but still extremely easy to find and use (proven in battle conditions). I would consider such a handle for my cutaway if it had a greater distinction from my reserve (see attachments). Even if my hand/arm/body/brain is injured, using such handles is much easier. Even if I'm stupid enough to use ski type gloves with that are horrible for use with soft pillows, it is not such a problem for handles with a big hole.

I find it interesting that freeflyers are so keen to not have a metal reserve handle, as they so seldom come in contact with each other.

Interesting chart. I assume that having a higher cutaway force reduces the chance of an accidental cutaway with a D ring style handle. I would worry that a fabric handle could bunch up or twist in such a way that it is difficult to use - but I've only seen the photos. What benefit do they have over a metal D ring?

Of course it is nice to have the handles feel different to avoid using the wrong one.

As you imply, the weight of a metal handle has been thought of as a potential problem in that it might activate from being blown around by wind (when the 3-ring white loop isn't loaded) or from opening shock. The reserve pin has a more consistent load/tension on it and so it isn't as vulnerable to moving due to a loose handle.

If you see someone that has a loop handle, ask them to let you check it out, I think you will be surprised at how they can stay in place well - not too flimsy/not too rigid. I think each rig mfg makes their own, if they offer that option, so I can only say that the Infinity soft handle is very nice.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[airtwardo 6]

Interesting chart. I assume that having a higher cutaway force reduces the chance of an accidental cutaway with a D ring style handle. I would worry that a fabric handle could bunch up or twist in such a way that it is difficult to use - but I've only seen the photos. What benefit do they have over a metal D ring?

[sundevil777 94]

It probably is worth saying for those that haven't checked out a soft loop handle in person - the cutaway cable is within the loop, so that gives it a level of flexibility/rigidity. It might be easy to assume that the handle is just fabric. Some of the loop handles also have other stiffener materials in addition to the loop.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[nigel99 151]

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Interesting chart. I assume that having a higher cutaway force reduces the chance of an accidental cutaway with a D ring style handle. I would worry that a fabric handle could bunch up or twist in such a way that it is difficult to use - but I've only seen the photos. What benefit do they have over a metal D ring?

I don't think the higher cutaway force is designed in there on purpose, it's more of a negative influence from the mini-risers.

Fabric loop handles are on most tandems these days, they don't seem to bunch up or get twisted, what they do is give ya a large easy to see, grasp and operate handle.

My 'newest' rig (two years old) came with a fabric loop cut-away handle, but I changed it out to one of those pillows with the finger pockets...only because jumping demos, my hands are moving around quite a bit deploying chest mounted smoke, pyro or flags.

Didn't want to hook the larger loop accidentally.

The joys of internet communication.

I didn't mean to imply that the higher cutaway force was an intentional design parameter. I am aware that it is a negative and was trying to note a possible "unintentional benefit" with regards to snagging.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[JerryBaumchen 1,075]

Hi Jim,

A question for you:

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one of those pillows with the finger pockets

You've had enough cutaways to know; do you think that you would/could actually get your fingers into that finger pocket.

Just asking . . .

JerryBaumchen

[labrys 0]

I have a cloth loop handle and am very comfortable with it. As others have said, they aren't floppy and don't tend to bunch up. I suppose it is slightly more likely to fold under the main lift web than a pillow, but its also easy to hook fingers through it to reduce the chance it will slip out of a gloved, cold, or injured hand. By its nature, the "peel" part of the cutaway happens almost naturally with grasping the loop.

As far as using a regular reserve handle on the right side....I guess I would rather have different tools with different feels for the 2 jobs. The loop lays flat and isn't as rigid or heavy as a metal ring too.

Owned by Remi #?

[airtwardo 6]

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Hi Jim,

A question for you:

Quote

one of those pillows with the finger pockets

You've had enough cutaways to know; do you think that you would/could actually get your fingers into that finger pocket.

Just asking . . .

JerryBaumchen

I wouldn't bet the ranch on it Jerry, I have hands like catchers mitts AND I wear gloves every jump.

I played with it in the hanging harness when I went with that set-up and to be honest, a couple of fingers did go into the little pocket most of the time just grabbing the handle, but what I did like is the fact it's shaped different than the old-style straight twinkie and tappers down inboard so it lays flat and is too big to tuck under..on me anyway.

Seemed easier to grab, and being wider than long felt like I had some 'mechanical' advantage regarding peeling the fuzz.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[popsjumper 2]

I'm seeing comments form experienced people that worry me.

"I would consider such a handle for my cutaway if it had a greater distinction from my reserve...."

"Of course it is nice to have the handles feel different to avoid using the wrong one."

"I guess I would rather have different tools with different feels for the 2 jobs."


I'm having trouble understanding why "feel" and "different tool" is important to a jumper that knows cutaway location and reserve deployment location like the back of their hand.

The only reason I can think of right now is in the case of a very violent mal where the harness gets twisted so radically that you would have to "feel" that you had the reserve deployment handle in your hand when you should be "feeling" the cutaway handle. Is that correct?


Also,
I assume that this comment relates to a dislodged cutaway handle?

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the weight of a metal handle has been thought of as a potential problem in that it might activate from...

1) being blown around by wind (when the 3-ring white loop isn't loaded) or

2) from opening shock.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239