Guns & Political Correctness

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

I did not throw an insult at anyone. I merely posted a quote by Freud. Perhaps you were not mature enough to see that. Freud said it, not me. I merely pointed out his opinion.

Bullshit.

Who cares who originally said it. What matters is that it was used in the context of this thread in a derogatory manner. I may not agree with guys like JohnRich (and I find his constant use of statistics which suit his arguments annoying, hence the reason I refused to respond to his usual antics). But believe it or not, I respect him. But respect must be earned. And you have been quick to shit down anyone's neck here on DZ.COM who does not agree with your views.

I am so done with this thread and I am done with arrogant, intolerant skygods like yourself.

Bite me.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[captainpooby 0]

Quote

Quote

I did not throw an insult at anyone. I merely posted a quote by Freud. Perhaps you were not mature enough to see that. Freud said it, not me. I merely pointed out his opinion.

Bullshit.

Who cares who originally said it. What matters is that it was used in the context of this thread in a derogatory manner. I may not agree with guys like JohnRich (and I find his constant use of statistics which suit his arguments annoying, hence the reason I refused to respond to his usual antics). But believe it or not, I respect him. But respect must be earned. And you have been quick to shit down anyone's neck here on DZ.COM who does not agree with your views.

I am so done with this thread and I am done with arrogant, intolerant skygods like yourself.

Bite me.

Thats very mature of you.

Sorry you feel that I am shitting on you and others. Can you point out where I have done that?
I feel I have backed up everything I have said here. If you want to take your ball and bat and go home thats OK too.
I have said nothing on this board that isnt true and backed up by facts.
If that upsets you, I'm sorry.

[Luv2Fall 0]

Let's propose a ban on knives, rope, chain, wire, forks, ball bats, gold clubs, bricks, beer bottles, automobiles, belts, pillows, irons, archery bows, crossbows, neckties, pencils, pens, rulers, screwdrivers, razors, dumbells, boot laces, fingers, fists, elbows, knees, feet, teeth, tire irons, hammers, files, pointed handled combs, keys, plastic bags, duck tape, fishing line, certain OTC products, suspenders, large flashlights, credit cards, roadside flares, hockey sticks, cue balls, bed springs, crowbars, large rocks, dental floss, syringes with needles, steel pipes, water, shanks of any type and the list goes on.

[mnischalke 0]

NRA's release on the subject:

Quote

VIRGINIAN’S FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS RESTORED

A Virginia school district has been barred from enforcing its dress code prohibiting clothing or belongings with “messages related to weapons,” according to a ruling issued by a 3-judge panel of the Fourth Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals which encompasses Virginia, Maryland, North Carolina, South Carolina, and West Virginia.

In a unanimous decision, the court found in the case of Alan Newsom v. Albermarle County School Board that the school’s dress code is overly broad and likely unconstitutional under the First Amendment’s protection of freedom of expression. To punctuate its findings, the Appeals Court further noted that the code as written would prohibit clothing displaying the Virginia state seal, the musket-toting mascot of the county high school, and the crossed-sabers logo of the University of Virginia’s athletic teams.

The lawsuit, filed on behalf of Newsom by the NRA Civil Rights Defense Fund, charged the School Board with violating his civil rights when school officials banned Newsom from wearing an NRA logo-ed Youth Sports Shooting Camp shirt to school last year. Newsom was forced to turn the shirt inside out when a vice-principal deemed “inappropriate” a graphic on the shirt which depicts the shooting sports. Although a District Court had previously ruled against Newsom saying the youth had suffered no “irreparable harm” by the school’s action, the Appeals Court decidedly reversed the lower court in calling for the preliminary injunction against continued enforcement of the school’s dress code.

In its opinion delivered on Dec. 1, 2003, the Fourth Circuit applied Supreme Court precedent in the landmark decision of Tinker v. Des Moines School District in holding that “the dress code can be understood as reaching lawful, nonviolent, and non-threatening symbols of not only popular, but important organizations and ideals.” The court went on to state that, “Banning support for or affiliation with the myriad of organizations and institutions that include weapons (displayed in a nonviolent and non-threatening manner) in their insignia can hardly be deemed reasonably related to the maintenance of a safe or distraction-free school.”

The court noted that the “quintessential political message the school here is trying to promote - ‘Guns and Schools Don’t Mix’ - would under a reasonable interpretation, [also] be prohibited.” The court concluded by stating “it is evident that the . . . Dress Code disfavors weapons, displayed in any manner and in any context, and potentially any messages about weapons. It excludes a broad range and scope of symbols, images, and political messages that are entirely legitimate and even laudatory. Under these circumstances . . . Newsom has demonstrated a strong likelihood of success of the merits on his overbreadth claim.” The panel ruled that the District Court abused its discretion in not entering a preliminary injunction and thus vacated the lower court’s ruling.

The Fourth Circuit sent a clear message that political demagoguery in schools will not stand. As the case is brought back to the District Court for a full trial, NRA will continue to fight for equal protection under the law.

When 13-year-old Alan Newsom was threatened with suspension for wearing the NRA t-shirt, he and his parents were astonished. “Alan has a sport that he enjoys and he was singled out and made to feel like he was doing something wrong,” said Fred Newsom, the boy’s father. “[School officials] made him feel ashamed of his sport of choice.”

“It made me mad,” added Alan, who aspires to be an Olympic competitor. “I like target shooting. It’s in no way violent and they’re trying to tell me it is.”

“The school’s action amounted to political correctness run amok,” said Dan Zavadil, assistant general counsel for NRA, who filed the Newsom case. “In affirming the Tinker decision, the court ruled that public school students do not leave their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate, even when expressing an interest in the right to keep and bear arms,” he added. Zavadil, the Newsoms, and the NRA were supported in their stand in a friend-of-the-court brief filed by Virginia Attorney General Jerry Kilgore, as well as a number of groups including the Independence Institute, First Amendment Lawyers Association, and the American Civil Liberties Union. Reacting to the decision, the Attorney General’s office issued a statement, saying “We’re very pleased that the 4th Circuit has recognized a law-abiding student’s right to express himself in a way that is non-disruptive and non-offensive.”

In writing the panel’s opinion, Judge Clyde Hamilton noted that the school’s dress code (which was amended to include “weapons” after the incident) would outlaw the Great Seal of Virginia, which depicts the Roman goddess Virtus, spear and sword-armed, standing triumphantly over a fallen tyrant; the musket-armed mascot of nearby Albemarle County High School; and the crossed sabres emblematic of the University of Virginia’s Cavaliers. The Supreme Court, Hamilton concluded, “has explained that ‘loss of First Amendment freedoms, for even minimal periods of time, unquestionably constitutes irreparable injury.’”

Ironically, Alan Newsom’s school is named for Revolutionary War hero Captain Jack Jouett, who risked his life to warn Virginia’s signers of the Declaration of Independence of an impending British raid. Jouett’s action saved six Virginia patriots, including Thomas Jefferson and Patrick Henry, from capture and possible execution. For his valor, the Virginia legislature awarded Jouett a sword and a pair of pistols.

In applauding the Circuit Court’s decision, the noted Constitutional scholar David Kopel wrote:

"The obstinate and unconstitutional conduct of the school administration and the school board revealed contempt for the First and Second Amendments. The adults’ behavior was a disgrace to the memory of Jack Jouett. Young Alan Newsom, however, acted in the spirit of Jack Jouett and other great Virginians. Newsom went to NRA Camp to learn the responsible exercise of Second Amendment rights, and then he went to federal court to vindicate the First Amendment. Alan Newsom might be unpopular with some school bureaucrats right now, but they should re-read the last sentence of the Jack Jouett school’s mission statement:

'Our ultimate charge is to deepen our students’ academic, social, and civic understanding and skills so that they can be successful in high school and as independent, responsible, and contributing members of society.'

Alan Newsom’s deep civic understanding has already made him a responsible and contributing member of society, winning a major case which will help protect the rights of students for many generations to come."

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[kallend 1,647]

Quote

NRA's release on the subject:

***VIRGINIAN’S FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS RESTORED

A Virginia school district has been barred from enforcing its dress code prohibiting clothing or belongings with “messages related to weapons,” according to a ruling issued by a 3-judge panel of the Fourth Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals which encompasses Virginia, Maryland, North Carolina, South Carolina, and West Virginia.

The sad thing is that this school board was elected by the citizens of Albermarle Co.

Every stupid school board rule comes from a board elected by the citizens.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[PhillyKev 0]

Quote

The sad thing is that this school board was elected by the citizens of Albermarle Co.

Every stupid school board rule comes from a board elected by the citizens.

Just because a political body is composed of elected officials that doesn't mean they can violate the constitution. Yes, for most infractions the way to correct it is vote them out of office, but redress for the infringement of someone's rights shouldn't be left up to the electorate.

[kallend 1,647]

Quote

Quote

The sad thing is that this school board was elected by the citizens of Albermarle Co.

Every stupid school board rule comes from a board elected by the citizens.

Just because a political body is composed of elected officials that doesn't mean they can violate the constitution. Yes, for most infractions the way to correct it is vote them out of office, but redress for the infringement of someone's rights shouldn't be left up to the electorate.

It's easy to adopt a "us vs them" attitude about Washington DC, but school boards 'R Us. These are friends and neighbors, for the most part. What gets into people when they get a little bit of authority that suddenly common sense goes out the window?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mnischalke 0]

Quote

What gets into people when they get a little bit of authority that suddenly common sense goes out the window?

Good point. Power is intoxicating, especially to the person who's never been in a position of leadership before.

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[Kennedy 0]

while we're on the topic of new authority and people abusing it...

Washington Times editorial

Quote

Where are the armed pilots?
By Tracy W. Price

On Nov. 25, 2002, President Bush signed the Arming Pilots Against Terrorism Act. The law compelled the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) to train and arm airline pilots who volunteered for the program. One year later, many Americans believe that large numbers of airline pilots are now carrying guns. Sadly, they are wrong.

On Aug. 26, the TSA gleefully reported that far fewer airline pilots have volunteered for the armed pilot program than pilot groups estimated might volunteer. Currently, only a few thousand pilots have volunteered for the program out of about 100,000 that are eligible. The large majority of Americans who support arming airline pilots might rightfully ask: Where are the volunteers? The answer to the question is really quite simple.

The TSA has very intentionally and successfully minimized the number of volunteers through thinly veiled threats and by making the program difficult and threatening to get into.

Airline pilots practice their profession at the pleasure of the federal government. Airline Captains must hold an airline transport pilot's certificate (ATP) issued by the FAA. To gain the experience required by a major airline, a pilot must have thousands of flight hours amassed over many years. Once hired by an airline, pilots are required to demonstrate their proficiency in four-hour long sessions in flight simulators twice each year. Annually, airline pilots will receive a "line check" in which "check pilots" ride in the cockpit and evaluate the crew's performance. Several times each year, FAA examiners — without notice — show up to give pilots a check ride. Twice each year, airline captains are required to report to FAA-designated physicians for a physical and psychological exam. Medical history is evaluated and a physical exam with exacting standards is performed. FAA doctors are trained to ask probing questions, looking for any sign of psychological instability, stress or depression. Failing to meet the standard for any of these evaluations will, of course, result in immediate removal from the flying schedule and loss of any opportunity to be employed as a pilot.

Now, fresh with this backdrop of the professional life of an airline pilot, consider the armed pilot program that the TSA has constructed. Understand that the TSA is opposed to the armed pilot program. Last year, the TSA granted itself the power to revoke a pilot's ATP if it deems him to be a security threat. Pilots who volunteer for training to carry guns must complete a very detailed, 13-page application and submit to a three-hour written psychological exam probing into the most private workings of any person: his thoughts, feelings, opinions and emotions. Pilots who pass this government-sponsored psychological strip-search are then ordered to report to a government psychologist for a one-on-one "interview."

For the pilots that finally make it into training, they will have to travel at their own expense to and pay for their own room and board in Artesia, N.M. Artesia is a four-hour drive from El Paso, Texas, the nearest city.

Airline pilots evaluate the totality of the TSA's armed-pilot program and they have declined to participate in droves. Too many airline pilots view the TSA armed pilot program as a potentially career threatening fiasco that will cost each pilot who volunteers at least one week of flight pay and require him to bare his soul to an out-of-control government agency that hates the idea of armed pilots. Couple this with the breathtaking failure of many current and former military pilots with top-secret clearances to pass the TSA psychological evaluations and pilots are saying, "No, thanks."

To justify their intrusive tactics, the TSA says, "We need to make sure that each pilot we allow to fly armed can use the gun to kill terrorists and then be calm enough to land safely." In other words, We think that you'd be better off dead. Obviously, pilots won't volunteer for the program in the first place unless they are willing to use a gun. Moreover, if a pilot is "screened out" of the program by the TSA psychological soothsayers and terrorists attack his cockpit, the outcome is very certain: He, all of his passengers and possibly many thousands on the ground will soon be dead. A logical armed-pilot program would not be looking for ways to screen pilots out; it would be looking for ways to encourage more volunteers.

We have endured almost two years of TSA searches of law-abiding citizens, yet recent news reports show that al Qaeda operatives remain interested in targeting airliners. Nothing the TSA has done thus far has sufficiently deterred al Qaeda. Embarrassed by a college student who easily snuck knives on board airliners, the TSA now plans to use technology that will "see through" each passenger's clothing and present them naked to the government screeners.

Further violation of our rights is not the answer, but hardening the target is the answer. Congress should take all discretion about which pilots get into the armed-pilot program away from the TSA, just as 36 states have done with "Shall Issue" concealed carry laws.

Capt. Tracy W. Price flies Boeing 737s for a major airline and is the former chairman of the Airline Pilots' Security Alliance.

So men and women holding who held top secret security clearances, who pilot immense missiles everyday are declared unfit to carry a firearm? Yep, bureaucracy makes a lot of sense.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Kennedy 0]

And another tidbit:

Quote

OHIO . . . Governor Bob Taft claims that a lack of disclosure of the names of concealed permit holders is reason enough for him to veto legislation that has been 20 years in the making. In a 25-8 Senate vote and a 70-27 vote in the House, before adjourning for the year, the legislature passed a bill allowing Ohioans with proper training to get a permit from their county sheriff. Even with the ability for reporters to search individual permit holders by name, Taft says he won't sign a bill that doesn't disclose names and all personal information about permit holders to anyone who asks. House Speaker Larry Householder, R-Glenford, explained to The Dayton Daily News, "If you look at the true intent of concealed carry, it is that criminals do not know who is carrying and so when you go out and do full disclosure you really are breaking the intent of the bill."

So he wants to keep his crime rate as is(RTC is known to lower it), and won't sign without disclosure (read: telling the criminals where they can find guns).

Another one who must be thinking "Don't confuse me with the facts, I've made up my mind."

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[billvon 2,427]

>So men and women holding who held top secret security clearances,
> who pilot immense missiles everyday are declared unfit to carry a
> firearm? Yep, bureaucracy makes a lot of sense.

Who declared them unfit? As far as I know, whether or not a pilot can carry a gun is ultimately up to the company that employs them. Pilots have to follow all sorts of rules that are more restrictive than the FAR's, because when you're an employee, the boss sets the rules. Just because an airline has a policy that they do not ever plan a flight without at least 100 minutes fuel reserve does not mean the pilot has been declared unfit to manage his aircraft's fuel.

[Kennedy 0]

Quote

Who declared them unfit? As far as I know, whether or not a pilot can carry a gun is ultimately up to the company that employs them.

The federal government said it's not up to the airlines anymore. That what the FFDO program is all about. That puts the decision in the hands of the TSA. The problem is bureaucrats at the TSA have done everything they can to hinder the process.

edit: relevant TSA website It's called (for short) Arming Pilots Against Terrorism Act.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[gmanpilot 0]

Quote

Where are the armed pilots?
By Tracy W. Price
Capt. Tracy W. Price flies Boeing 737s for a major airline and is the former chairman of the Airline Pilots' Security Alliance.

See, now that's why pilots should stick to keeping the shiny side up, and journalists should stick to the reporting. That has got to be one of the most jacked-up, misreported, factually incorrect articles I have ever read. There is almost nothing in it that is accurate, and it would take too much time rebutting the whole thing.

The truth is this: Congress wanted the FFDO program cause it's sexy and gets votes. The TSA is a customer service agency. The airlines drive the TSA. The airlines do not support the FFDO program. The airlines set the agenda, period.

_________________________________________
-There's always free cheese in a mouse trap.

[Kennedy 0]

Quote

See, now that's why pilots should stick to keeping the shiny side up, and journalists should stick to the reporting.

Right, all skydivers have absolute faith in journalists.

Quote

There is almost nothing in it that is accurate, and it would take too much time rebutting the whole thing.

The truth is this: Congress wanted the FFDO program cause it's sexy and gets votes. The TSA is a customer service agency. The airlines drive the TSA. The airlines do not support the FFDO program. The airlines set the agenda, period.

So you dispute that firearms on airliners are a good thing? You dispute that the TSA is in fact a government agency subject to the legislation of congress? You dispute that the TSA has gone out of its way to make arming pilots difficult/impossible? If it's not too much of your precious time, what exactly do you dispute?

Quote

customer service agency

Tell that to an eighty year old medal of honor winner next time the putz with the wand makes him sit down and take off hits shoes four times. If they're customer service, whoever hired them is, in the words of captainpooby, a fucktard. They make me not want to fly, not the other way around.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[gmanpilot 0]

Quote

If it's not too much of your precious time, what exactly do you dispute?

I'm not disputing anything bro. The TSA is a fucked up agency, but that article is the most biased piece of drivel I have seen in a long time. If the TSA is doing, or not doing something, it's because the airlines wish it so, that is the reality.

FWIW, the FFDO, IMHO is a nightmare of a program. If I were an airline pilot, I would not volunteer either. Nobody is going to back the FFDO when the shit goes bad, as will surely happen. Scenario: FFDO swings by his local stop-N-rob for a gallon of milk on his way home from work. Punk holds up the place while FFDO is inside. FFDO kills the punk with his TSA issued weapon while wearing his airline uniform.(this WILL happen) FFDO is fucked, and he can kiss his $250,000/yr salary bye bye, cause the government, the airline, and the union will all be lining up to hang him out to dry. Count on it.

_________________________________________
-There's always free cheese in a mouse trap.

[mnischalke 0]

Wow. That would be a truly fucked up world we'd be living in. I would assume the FFDO would only draw and fire his firearm if he felt an imminant threat to his life or the lives of others. I would further assume that as a highly trained individual in shoot/no-shoot scenarios, like any other law enforcement person, he would be quickly found to have taken the proper course of action in shooting the "punk." When the gov't, airline and union hang him out to dry, I would seriously consider the world fucked, especially if the NRA didn't rush to his aid. It would be further fucked if dozens of blood-thirsty tort lawyers didn't follow.

Sorry, but something about your scenario just doesn't smell right.

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[billvon 2,427]

>Tell that to an eighty year old medal of honor winner next time the
> putz with the wand makes him sit down and take off hits shoes four
> times. If they're customer service, whoever hired them is, in the
> words of captainpooby, a fucktard. They make me not want to fly,
> not the other way around.

Exactly. Why can't they concentrate on the arabs and the blacks?

If any security program is to work, they have to search EVERYONE. The lady with the car seat - because car seats can (and have) been used to carry explosives. The 80 year old gentleman, because his eyesight's not so good, and he's a little hard of hearing, and someone could have gotten to his bags without him noticing. The 25 year old US military guy, because they become terrorists too on occasion and kill hundreds of people.

If you leave a gap in security, it will be exploited. Or you can be OK with the gap and live with a (slightly) increased chance of another 9/11. Can't have it both ways. This sort of security isn't anything new - I flew on El Al back in 93 and their security was tougher than the TSA is now. But then again, they've been living 9/11 for 30 years.

[Kennedy 0]

El Al has been serious since day one. TSA is a joke, but comparing them the Iraeli security shows just what a pathetic effort they give and what a pathetic effect they produce.

It's the same "I don't give a shit, I'm union" attitude that has made American Security as much an oxymoron as Central Intelligence Agency. I don't mind being stopped and going through a little hassle, but when they do it to me every time I fly (I'm a frequent flyer gold member FCS) it kind of pisses me off. Just look at the highschool kid that made a fool out of all of them. I say give him a job, they say felony indictment. Go figure. A bureaucrat looking out for his job, not doing it. Who'd have ever imagined that.

If there is any reason to search one person again, then in my mind, there is reason to check EVERYONE again. No profiling, not random BS, just good old fashioned leg work.

Oh yeah, and screeners that speak english would be nice, too.

(ps - lets not forget the ceramic 'letter openner' that a bunch of people carry on. lots more effective than boxcutters and no metal.)

I heard a good idea today: when cops fly intrastate flights, let them go armed if they so choose. If it were me, I'd offer it as overtime.


edit: Bill, this is getting scary. We've agreed several times and it's 0130 Tuesday morning. What's going on?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[kallend 1,647]

Quote

El Al has been serious since day one. TSA is a joke, but comparing them the Iraeli security shows just what a pathetic effort they give and what a pathetic effect they produce.

It's the same "I don't give a shit, I'm union" attitude that has made American Security as much an oxymoron as Central Intelligence Agency. I don't mind being stopped and going through a little hassle, but when they do it to me every time I fly (I'm a frequent flyer gold member FCS) it kind of pisses me off. Just look at the highschool kid that made a fool out of all of them. I say give him a job, they say felony indictment. Go figure. A bureaucrat looking out for his job, not doing it. Who'd have ever imagined that.

If there is any reason to search one person again, then in my mind, there is reason to check EVERYONE again. No profiling, not random BS, just good old fashioned leg work.

Oh yeah, and screeners that speak english would be nice, too.

(ps - lets not forget the ceramic 'letter openner' that a bunch of people carry on. lots more effective than boxcutters and no metal.)

I heard a good idea today: when cops fly intrastate flights, let them go armed if they so choose. If it were me, I'd offer it as overtime.


edit: Bill, this is getting scary. We've agreed several times and it's 0130 Tuesday morning. What's going on?

Ceramic letter openers are the least of your worries if the bad guys get really good engineering support behind them. The TSA measures intimidate regular travelers and may discourage amateur trouble makers, but a completely non-metallic firearm that looks like, say, a candy bar is quite within the bounds of possibility. As is all kinds of chemical and electronic stuff that could be made to look totally benign.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Kennedy 0]

Quote

Ceramic letter openers are the least of your worries if the bad guys get really good engineering support behind them. The TSA measures intimidate regular travelers and may discourage amateur trouble makers, but a completely non-metallic firearm that looks like, say, a candy bar is quite within the bounds of possibility. As is all kinds of chemical and electronic stuff that could be made to look totally benign.

I own a 'letter opener' that looks suspiciously like a diving knife. It is both sharp and strong. That is a worry.

But just because congress wastes time outlawing plastic guns, that doesn't make them a possibility.

Now, I can out into a hardware store, come back to any tool shed, and in a total of about an hour make a zip gun for you, but it wouldn't be plastic. I've seen 'firearms' built inside fake cell phones, video cameras, and more, but they all have metal chambers and barrels.

To my knowledge, nothing available is strong enough or can take enough heat to act as chamber or barrel other than metal. For many calibers, other than steel.

Remember, the chamber has to be more resistant than forcing the bullet out of the casing and down the barrel. And the combustion (not explosion) that occurs when firing a bullet is not exactly cool to the touch.

Can't argue with you about bio chem agents as able to be concealed, but wouldn't it make more sense to let the agent out before boarding a plane? That way it would affect/infect more people going to more places, instead of being localized inside the cabin.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[kallend 1,647]

Quote

Quote

Ceramic letter openers are the least of your worries if the bad guys get really good engineering support behind them. The TSA measures intimidate regular travelers and may discourage amateur trouble makers, but a completely non-metallic firearm that looks like, say, a candy bar is quite within the bounds of possibility. As is all kinds of chemical and electronic stuff that could be made to look totally benign.

I own a 'letter opener' that looks suspiciously like a diving knife. It is both sharp and strong. That is a worry.

But just because congress wastes time outlawing plastic guns, that doesn't make them a possibility.

Now, I can out into a hardware store, come back to any tool shed, and in a total of about an hour make a zip gun for you, but it wouldn't be plastic. I've seen 'firearms' built inside fake cell phones, video cameras, and more, but they all have metal chambers and barrels.

To my knowledge, nothing available is strong enough or can take enough heat to act as chamber or barrel other than metal. For many calibers, other than steel.

Remember, the chamber has to be more resistant than forcing the bullet out of the casing and down the barrel. And the combustion (not explosion) that occurs when firing a bullet is not exactly cool to the touch.

There are some plastics that would probably work for single shot weapons, however, that's not the route I'd explore.

There are some remarkable composite ceramics available now. Take more heat than any steel, very strong. This is not your mother's best china. Marginal toughness but for limited duty could be reinforced by winding with boron or silicon carbide fibers. I'll bet they exist somewhere, it's just a matter of engineering, nothing that violates the laws of physics or chemistry.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Kennedy 0]

Quote

Quote

plastic gun

There are some plastics that would probably work for single shot weapons, however, that's not the route I'd explore.

There are some remarkable composite ceramics available now. Take more heat than any steel, very strong. This is not your mother's best china. Marginal toughness but for limited duty could be reinforced by winding with boron or silicon carbide fibers. I'll bet they exist somewhere, it's just a matter of engineering, nothing that violates the laws of physics or chemistry.

I figured the stuff was out there, but it's more cost effective to just get some good old fashioned home grown C4 and plant it somewhere nasty.

BTW, if you happen to invent one, expect a visit from DIA, or another alphabet soup agency. They'll want one, I'm sure.

Just a thought: what about the cartridges? Brass casings and lead/metal bullets. Ten to twelve of those might set of the metal detectors. (heck, I've been known to set them off with zero metal on my body)

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[kallend 1,647]

Quote

Quote

Quote

plastic gun

There are some plastics that would probably work for single shot weapons, however, that's not the route I'd explore.

There are some remarkable composite ceramics available now. Take more heat than any steel, very strong. This is not your mother's best china. Marginal toughness but for limited duty could be reinforced by winding with boron or silicon carbide fibers. I'll bet they exist somewhere, it's just a matter of engineering, nothing that violates the laws of physics or chemistry.

I figured the stuff was out there, but it's more cost effective to just get some good old fashioned home grown C4 and plant it somewhere nasty.

BTW, if you happen to invent one, expect a visit from DIA, or another alphabet soup agency. They'll want one, I'm sure.

Just a thought: what about the cartridges? Brass casings and lead/metal bullets. Ten to twelve of those might set of the metal detectors. (heck, I've been known to set them off with zero metal on my body)

Ceramic bullets (hard nose or fragmenting, your choice) with polymer driving ring, cases like shotgun shells.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Kennedy 0]

Quote

Quote

I figured the stuff was out there, but it's more cost effective to just get some good old fashioned home grown C4 and plant it somewhere nasty.

BTW, if you happen to invent one, expect a visit from DIA, or another alphabet soup agency. They'll want one, I'm sure.

Just a thought: what about the cartridges? Brass casings and lead/metal bullets. Ten to twelve of those might set of the metal detectors. (heck, I've been known to set them off with zero metal on my body)

Ceramic bullets (hard nose or fragmenting, your choice) with polymer driving ring, cases like shotgun shells.

You're right. After I posted I thought about it for a while, and cartridges would probably be easier than the chamber/barrel switch. What do you mean by polymer drive ring? You mean to seal the gas and take on spin from the barrel?

So do you think they are already out there for governments and the like?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[captainpooby 0]

You could buy this and reverse engineer it out of plastic/ceramic.
It's a real gun but if you google it you will get mostly gaming sites.

It has useless short range ballistics. Its not effective untill the round builds velocity.

Gyrojet Pistol

Notes: : This unique weapon was the result of experiments with "rocket rounds." The Gyrojet fires electrically-ignited, jet-stabilized, rocket-powered bullets. The pistol is made from a light aluminum alloy (Zamac) stamping, and has only one moving part (to feed rounds from the magazine). The Gyrojet can be fired underwater. It has excellent accuracy and long range, but the large one-piece rounds have poor penetration. Since the main propelling charge does not ignite until the round has left the barrel, recoil is only 1/5 that of a similar-caliber weapon. Ammunition for this weapon is horribly expensive. It is believed that this weapon has not been used in combat since its testing in Vietnam; it was extremely low-maintenance, but the ammunition was just too expensive and lacking in performance.

Weapon
Ammunition
Weight
Magazines
Price

Gyrojet
12mm Gyrojet
0.46 kg
7
$486

Gyrojet
13mm Gyrojet
0.48 kg
6
$599