The REAL Blame for 9/11 (Yes, You Should Read This)

[Guest]

There are those who try to blame the current administration for "ignoring" the warnings leading up to 9/11 (that jackass Richard Clarke, for one).

There are those who try to blame the last adminstration too ("Madame Secretary" Albright is testifying today).

But the reality is that although administrations do share some of the blame, the REAL blame lies elsewhere...

Today on the BBC, a retired senior official from the Pentagon's Defense Intelligence Agency cut through the crap and told the truth.

He said (paraphrased): "The failure lies in the permanent institutions of the US government, and not in any adminstration or individual (my emphasis)."

In other words, GWB isn't entirely to blame, nor is the Clinton Administration.

It is the MANDARINS who are ultimately at fault.

In the massive bureaucracy of the federal government, there are fat careerists who saw what was going on prior to 9/11, but because each of them had their own fiefdom to protect and defend, nobody was able (or even willing) to put the pieces together. Those who sounded the alarms were ignored at best, and in some cases, punished for speaking out.

I've commented in this forum about the MANDARINS before - adminstrations come and go, but the "Mandarin Bureaucracy" goes on forever -- please see earlier threads --

here, and here.

Until THAT changes, nothing else ever will, and YOU MIGHT AS WELL VOTE FOR THE TOOTH FAIRY instead of GWB or John Kerry, because as long as the MANDARINS continue to have the real power in "our" government, YOUR VOTE IS MEANINGLESS.

You may say to yourself, "I just can't believe that - why, Mark, is my vote meaningless?" - the answer is simple - your vote will send somebody out of (or into) a political office, but the hugely expensive, gargantuan bureaucracy WILL NOT BE CHANGED BY YOUR VOTE.

"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards."

- Claire Wolfe, 101 Things to Do 'Til the Revolution

mh

ps - Once again, I'm done with the hot-button / political threads for a good while. It was fun exchanging thoughts and barbs with everyone. Many thanks to all participants...
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"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[gmanpilot 0]

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But the reality is that although administrations do share some of the blame, the REAL blame lies elsewhere...

Yes, it lies at the feet of the terrorists. Keep your eye on the ball. Sure, the G is a bloated, inefficient beaurocracy, but it is not responsible for 9/11.

_________________________________________
-There's always free cheese in a mouse trap.

[gerryfuss 0]

In any senario, big or small, there is always this sense of "who can we blame" attitude. not that I agree with the decisions made by Bush but saying "if bush had done this......", or "if bush had done that....." doesn't really get anyone anywhere. The bottom line is that terrorists acted out a horrible event on 9/11 and the blame should be kept on themand not to blame people that "maybe" could have prevented it. Just my personal opinion.

[PhillyKev 0]

I agree completely. I had the opportunity to sit down and speak with Richard Thieme last night, the Cybersecurity Czar. He consults with NSA, CIA, etc. on cyber terrorism. But he was mostly speaking about terrorism in general, what its main methods, goals and results are. He was speaking about the cultural and human revolution that's taken place since the computer age began. The changes throughout all aspects of society from hierarchical structure to dotted line networks. The government bueracracy has not changed with the times. One particulary interesting thing he said was that he was at an NSA briefing for members of congress in April, 2001. He said one of the top NSA guys was explaining the Al Queda threat and what was needed for humint resources to infiltrate, specifically dollars that needed to be allocated. The congress persons thought the sum of money was ridiculous and blew him off. Mr. Thieme said that the NSA guy, who is normally a calm, undemonstrative person pounded his fist on the table and said, "Is it going to take the World Trade Centers coming down for you people to wake up?"

[kallend 1,651]

The buck stops where?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Guest]

I think we need to call Bobby Ray Inman out of retirement, and hire James Dunnigan to be his lieutenant.

mh

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"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[rehmwa 2]

{{looks into the room. Grabs a donut. runs out}}

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[ACMESkydiver 0]

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{{looks into the room. Grabs a donut. runs out}}

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[jdhill 0]

for 9/11 it stops with the terrorists...

for the governments shortcomings in dealing with terrorism, prior to 9/11... the buck is like a hot potato, it keeps getting passed around until it drops on the floor...

Change in administrations has some impact, as do changes in Congress... it is much harder to effect change in the rank and file of the government... it is damn near impossible to fire a civil service employee... even when they are grossly incompetent, or don't play well with others... the problem is not limited to DoD or CIA... it is in all agencies, and why nothing really changes when it comes to the government.

J

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[kallend 1,651]

While not totally disagreeing with Mark's position, it is within the power of the politicians to change the bureaucracy, and they certainly don't have to grow the bureaucracy.

The "mandarins" aren't responsible for the growth of the Federal Government to it's current bloated size. The pols did that, and the current administration is as bad as any in that regard.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Ron 7]

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jdhill 0]

Congress has the power to grow government, the executive does not... or at the very least they have to go along with each other...

That said... I do agree that the size of the federal government has grown to be rediculous, something that has not been stemed by either this Administration or Congress.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[ACMESkydiver 0]

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The "mandarins" aren't responsible for the growth of the Federal Government to it's current bloated size. The pols did that, and the current administration is as bad as any in that regard.

-Our government is bloated on mandarin oranges?? Oh the horror! Think of the acid reflux! Think of the trips to the bathroom after so many mandarins! Good lord we should pass a law against bloating FEDs on produce....

OMG yes I am that much of a biotch. Sorry Kallend, I'm bored waiting for the cloud ceiling to lift...

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[PhillyKev 0]

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Congress has the power to grow government, the executive does not...

These are ALL Executive Agencies.


Department of Agriculture (USDA)
Agricultural Research Service
Animal & Plant Health Inspection Service
Cooperative State Research, Education, and Extension Service
Economic Research Service
Farm Service Agency
Forest Service
National Agricultural Library
Natural Resources Conservation Service
Research, Economics & Education
Rural Development

Department of Commerce (DOC)
Bureau of the Census
Bureau of Economic Analysis (BEA)
STAT-USA Database (password may be required)
Bureau of Export Administration
FEDWorld
International Trade Administration (ITA)
National Institute of Standards & Technology (NIST)
National Marine Fisheries Service (NMFS)
National Oceanic & Atmospheric Administration (NOAA)
National Ocean Service
National Technical Information Service (NTIS)
National Telecommunications & Information Administration
National Weather Service
Patent and Trademark Office Database

Department of Defense (DOD)
American Forces Press Service
Air Force (USAF)
Air Force Research Laboratory (AFRL)
Army (USA)
Army Field Manuals (full text)
Training and Doctrine Command (TRADOC)
BosniaLINK
TaLon archive (a newsletter for the soldiers of Task Force Eagle)
DIOR Reports (full text) including "Top 100 Contractors," "100 Contractors Receiving the Largest Dollar Volume..."
Defense Contract and Audit Agency (DCAA)
Defense Finance and Accounting Service (DFAS)
Defense Information Systems Agency (DISA)
Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA)
Defense Logistics Agency (DLA)
Defense Technical Information Center (DTIC)
DTIC Web Links
DefenseLINK Locator (GILS)
Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS)
Marine Corps (USMC)
National Guard
National Security Agency (NSA)
Navy (USN)
DON CIO (Naval Information Systems Management)

Department of Education
Educational Resources Information Center (ERIC) and Other Clearinghouses
National Library of Education (NLE)
Other Federal Government Internet Educational Resources

Department of Energy
Environment, Safety and Health (ES&H)
Federal Energy Regulatory Commission
Los Alamos National Laboratory
Office of Science
Southwestern Power Administration

Department of Health and Human Services (HHS)
Administration for Children and Families
Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality (AHCRQ)
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)
Food and Drug Administration (FDA)
National Institutes of Health (NIH)
National Library of Medicine (NLM)

Department Homeland Security (DHS)
Bureau of Citizenship and Immigration Services
Customs & Border Protection
Coast Guard
Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA)
Federal Law Enforcement Training Center
Secret Service

Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD)
Government National Mortgage Association (Ginnie Mae)
Housing and Urban Development Reading Room
Office of Healthy Homes and Lead Hazard Control
Public and Indian Housing Agencies

Department of the Interior (DOI)
Bureau of Indian Affairs (Temporarily unavailable.)
Bureau of Land Management
Bureau of Reclamation
Fish and Wildlife Service
Geological Survey
Minerals Management Service
National Park Service
Office of Surface Mining

Department of Justice (DOJ)
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF)
Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA)
Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI)
Federal Bureau of Prisons
Office of Justice Programs (OJP)
United States Marshals Service (USMS)

Department of Labor (DOL)
Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS)
Mine Safety and Health Administration
Occupational Safety & Health Administration (OSHA)

Department of State (DOS)
Department of State Library

Department of Transportation (DOT)
Bureau of Transportation Statistics
Federal Aviation Administration (FAA)
National Transportation Library (a digital library)

Department of the Treasury
Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau (TTB)
Bureau of Engraving and Printing
Bureau of Public Debt
Executive Office for Asset Forfeiture
Financial Crimes Enforcement Network
Financial Management Service (FMS)
Internal Revenue Service (IRS)
Office of the Comptroller of the Currency
Office of Thrift Supervision (OTS)
U.S. Mint

Department of Veterans Affairs


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INDEPENDENT AGENCIES

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Advisory Council on Historic Preservation (ACHP)

American Battle Monuments Commission
Central Intelligence Agency (CIA)
Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC)
Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC)
Corporation for National Service

Environmental Protection Agency (EPA)
Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC)
Farm Credit Administration (FCA)
Federal Communications Commission (FCC)
Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC)
Federal Election Commission (FEC)
Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC)
Federal Labor Relations Authority (FLRA)
Federal Maritime Commission
Federal Reserve System, Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System
Federal Retirement Thrift Investment Board (FRTIB)
Federal Trade Commission (FTC)
General Services Administration (GSA)
Federal Consumer Information Center (Pueblo, CO)
Institute of Museum and Library Services (IMLS)
International Boundary and Water Commission
International Broadcasting Bureau (IBB)
Merit Systems Protection Board (MSPB)
National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA)
National Archives and Records Administration (NARA)
National Capital Planning Commission (NCPC)
National Commission on Libraries and Information Science (NCLIS)
National Council on Disability
National Credit Union Administration (NCUA)
National Endowment for the Arts (NEA)
National Endowment for the Humanities (NEH)
National Indian Gaming Commission (NIGC)
National Mediation Board (NMB)
National Railroad Passenger Corporation (AMTRAK)
National Science Foundation (NSF)
National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB)
Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC)
US Nuclear Waste Technical Review Board (NWTRB)
Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA)
Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight (OFHEO)
Office of Personnel Management (OPM)
Office of Special Counsel (OSC)
Overseas Private Investment Corporation (OPIC)
Peace Corps
Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation
Postal Rate Commission
Railroad Retirement Board (RRB)
Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC)
Selective Service System (SSS)
Small Business Administration (SBA)
Social Security Administration (SSA)
Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA)
Thrift Savings Plan (TSP)
United States Agency for International Development (USAID)
United States Arms Control and Disarmament Agency (ACDA)
United States International Trade Commission (USITC)
Dataweb (Import/export data)
United States Office of Government Ethics (OGE).
United States Postal Service (USPS)

United States Trade and Development Agency
Voice of America (VOA)


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BOARDS, COMMISSIONS, AND COMMITTEES

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Advisory Committee on Human Radiation Experiments
Federal Laboratory Consortium for Technology Transfer (FLC)
White House Commission on Aviation Safety and Security (Report)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

QUASI-OFFICIAL AGENCIES

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Radio Free Asia
Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty
Smithsonian Institution (SI)

[jdhill 0]

Thanks for a listing of the executive branch... but you miss the point... none of these agencies are or departments were created by, empowered by or funded by the executive branch... that is done by the legislative branch through various laws and appropriations.

To say that any one administration has grown government is an untrue statement, as they cannot do it without congress.

J

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[PhillyKev 0]

Yes, congress approves the budget that pres creates. But the pres has and will create and empower agencies and seek congressional approval for that. To say that the executive does not is incorrect.

Example - Dept. of Homeland Security was created by the pres and their duties, responsibilities and powers defined by him. Congress approved it, but he still created it.

[jdhill 0]

Had congress not approved, or the funds for it, it would not exist... it is empowered by a law, passed by both houses of congress, then signed by the president, not by the president alone... both branches have to agree... checks and balances.

And to say that congress approves the budget that the pres creates is not entirely a true statement either... congress plugs in all kinds of BS that the Executive branch has not asked for, or does not want... the pres can either sign it or veto it... again, both branches must agree... checks and balances

J

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[PhillyKev 0]

I agree with your last two posts. I just didn't agree with your statement that "congress has the power to grow government, the executive does not." They both do.

[jdhill 0]

I'll go along with that

J

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[Duckwater 0]

I might be over simplifying this but I blame the assholes that hijacked those planes and their asshole friends that helped plan and finance it. And thats all the blame I have.