TSO

[parafredo 0]

Just a simple poll...Did any rigger, anywhere around the world got ever catch a non-approved reserve canopy in a TSO'ed harness ?

[JerryBaumchen 1,068]

Hi para,

In a sort of way, yes. I have a long-time friend & Master Rigger ( who will stay un-named ) who put a Pioneer Hornet into his reserve container.

I have found round reserves that had been patched by non-rigger owners with a variety of materials.

Do those count?

JerryBaumchen

PS) Eventually you will see it all. Rather like the old adage about an unlimited number of monkeys, and unlimited number of typewriters &: VOILA, the Bible.

[pchapman 262]

[Edit: The original poster is Canadian so this might be obvious to him -- this is a general response to the question.]

In Canada no TSO is required except for demo jumps. For some reason the gov't never got around to creating a lot of rules on such things.

So there have been a few manufacturers over the years who have built non TSO'd reserves. It was more common in the 70s and 80s, and I'm not sure anyone is building any reserves now.

Those canopies did end up in both TSO'd and non TSO'd harnesses.

[parafredo 0]

I found a non approved canopy in a Mirage G3, it was a 911.. a old Raven used as a main, I believe it had at least 500 jumps on it! packed like a main as well... I found home made slinks on a reserve,,,

[parafredo 0]

So, in Canada, we are able to jump any kind of weird reserve into any TSO harness. What about the manufacturer rules? I would like to find this written article about this issue in Canada. That would be the only country to go against the manufacturer rules....

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[parafredo 0]

Thank god transport Canada does not permit to replace any airplane parts to canadian tire bolts....

[pchapman 262]

But did the harness manufacturer ever write anything down about having to use a TSO'd reserve? Likely not. So then it wouldn't be against any manufacturer's rules. (Also, some US rigs are used in Europe, with reserves that might be approved locally but don't have a US TSO or even the equivalent.)

The homemade reserve slinks could be of good or bad quality.... but I could see a lot of riggers (including you or me) not being convinced that the system is "safe enough", whatever that means. Especially since alternatives that are well proven (like real reserve Slinks) are easily available.

Doesn't mean that we as riggers have to choose to pack it though.

[parafredo 0]

Well, Mirage told me to remove any non approved reserve parachute and send me a written note. I just do not understand why canadian goes over FAA rules. Anyway, I will never permit somebody to jump an equipment that is not approved or tested to save his life from a perfectly approved airplane.

[masterrig 1]

Yes. Years ago, I had a guy bring me a 'complete' rig, everything un-packed and shoved into a cardboard box. I pulled everything out of the box to take a look at things. The reserve and main were both connected to the container. Both canopies as well as all the lines were filthy. The reserve was attached to the main risers and the main was attached to the reserve risers. All labels were in their correct places on the equipment. Obviously, many jumps had been put on both canopies. After about 30-minutes of looking it all over, I told the guy I would not pack it and I advised him not to buy it. Over the course of 3-years, I saw that mess two more times. I told the last guy who brought it to me to just scrap it and that I never wated to see it again... EVER!


Chuck

[riggerrob 561]

Transport Canada has been trying to avoid the whole concept of TSOing skydiving equipment because the fatality rate has been so low for so many years ...
Over the years, only a handful of Canadian companies (Flying High, Rogersport, Westway, etc.) have applied for TSOs, but none of them are still active. Flying High is the only TSO holder still active, but they surrendered their TSO a couple of years ago because they did not want to submit all the paperwork requested by Transport Canada.

[parafredo 0]

Well, I do understand that even if you have a TSO, you are not safe enough and you still risk your life anyway. BUT,,, that does not mean to avoid all the cost and paperwork to make sure you did everything possible to be safe as possible. I believe Transport Canada should follow the same rules as FAA , as they always did anyway, why put skydiving activity away from thieir business... If you do not put any rules, you are just telling me that TC tolerate any kind of shit into skydiving equipment, as long as there is no fatality.... I just do not get it!!

[Beatnik 2]

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If you do not put any rules, you are just telling me that TC tolerate any kind of shit into skydiving equipment, as long as there is no fatality.... I just do not get it!!

I wouldn't believe Rob's theory of why Transport Canada doesn't regulate skydiving gear. I believe there are many reasons for it and anyone who has done a lot of work with transport Canada can probably tell you a few of them.

As for Transport Canada following what the FAA does, I don't think that you completely understand what you are saying there. That doesn't only apply to skydiving but also in aviation. Throwing a suggestion out like that won't stop at one point.

As to TSOs. There has been tons of gear without TSOs that has been completely safe to use. Just because there is a TSO doesn't mean that it doesn't have "any kind of shit" as you put it. There has been some TSO gear that is not worth anything. Having a TSO just means you passed some tests. Not having one doesn't mean it is crap either.

[parafredo 0]

Well. I will just jump my sorcerer BASE rig next season, at all time in Quebec... it just does make sense until the next ourt case with fatality . Sorry to say, if you have no budjet to certified a parachute equipment, just don't do it !

[Beatnik 2]

I think you are taking things out of context completely. There is gear all over the world that is not TSO'd should it all be band because you feel that the TSO is the be all end all for making gear safe?

I would like you to find me a court case in Canada that they said the cause was from non TSO'd gear.

Other country's use other forms of testing. Just because it wasn't under the FAA's TSO process must make it bad then. Or what about the military gear that is built like a truck that isn't TSO'd, it must be bad too under your thinking. Its gone through way more testing but who cares it doesn't carry a TSO so according to you it is crap.

This argument is ridiculous. Do what ever you want but there is no way you will convince me that Transport Canada should follow the FAA or this theory of yours that TSO'd gear is the saving grace to parachute equipment.

[pchapman 262]

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Well. I will just jump my sorcerer BASE rig next season, at all time in Quebec...

So as a BASE jumper you'll trust your non-TSO'd rigs and canopies, but not trust non-TSO'd skydiving equipment?

Where would BASE be if not for jumpers with sewing machines in their basements?

Not having to pass TSO tests did help the small Canadian industry in the early years, making the sport more accessible.

It also allows riggers more freedom to maneuver without worrying about what the authorities will do. For example, I've seen (TSO'd) rigs modified for accuracy with the harness rings and chest strap relocated.

In general I think the TSO isn't a big deal on harnesses, because it is relatively easy to see whether a harness is built to the same standards as other rigs. If a company is doing something new and unseen in the market, then one would be more sceptical without proof of strength.

As far as TSO'd reserves go, there you have more of a point. Taking personal responsibility, I might prefer not jump a ParaFab 911 reserve, or a Parachutes Canada reserve. There were rumours that Parafab wanted to TSO the 911, but it didn't do well in the TSO tests so the idea was dropped. The Canadian Aerosports / Parachutes Canada reserves were a little odd in design. Probably OK but I don't know enough about them. On the other hand, I'd jump a Niagara Parachutes Baby Cobra reserve (a version with a diaper), because I knew tons of people had them in Ontario in the 70s and 80s and they seemed to work and I've seen their construction.

As for TC not regulating, they've been bugged enough by coroner's inquests and family members and media after fatalities. That's also a reason for the whole NPA 99-149 proposed regulations mess. But they haven't proposed TSO standards. So I'd agree with Riggerob, if his idea is that fatalities due to substandard construction have been very rare, but there must be some other historical reason that they just didn't regulate it back in the early days. Even pilot emergency rigs don't have to be certified in Canada, which is surprising, but has essentially zero effect on safety.


I realize that your talking about TSO's doesn't mean you think it is the only standard worldwide -- just that you are talking about some sort of certification, and a TSO is the one that is well known on this continent. So I'd say Beatnik can back off a little on that area. But he's right with his observation that a TSO doesn't mean everything is great.

You don't have to listen to what Mirage tells you about a non certified reserve. They just want to cover their own asses. You do have the freedom pack or not pack that rig according to your best judgment.

[parafredo 0]

Well, you got my point. I would put my Mojo as reserve because i jumped it and it is just perfect. My point is, CSPA or TC should make a list of what they approve . simple as that. We should have something to follow to avoid any doubt. I know FAA is not always and will be right about certifications but someone have to draw a line. Manufacturers cover their back, FAA as well, but I believe TC should tell CSPA to follow some kind of certification list. Why they request to be TSO on demo jump?.. I am not against any manufacturer but we should have some kind of foundation.

[Beatnik 2]

CSPA while they issue the rating they are a sport association. They don't have the ability to govern it. I used to be director I know that all too well. And if you start asking Transport Canada to start regulating things, they will start regulating things and they will do what makes sense to them not what makes sense to us. Transport Canada should not do anything with our sport more than they have. If you start asking Transport Canada to do things it will only get worse. That is what happened when a dropzone owner asked them to regulate planes because he felt it would be better for his business, then they started to want to regulate everything.

IMO all that should be done is the TSC should mandate what is allowed. But I doubt you will get them to agree with the TSO thing since one member has been building gear of his own for years and another one works for a company that builds military gear that doesn't need TSOs.

[parafredo 0]

Well, sounds to politic to me, I know what your saying. Noboby wants to take decisions or if they do so, they do it wrong... Sounds like Quebec governement....they talk , they spend and nothing happens!

[riggerrob 561]

Be careful what you ask for.
Transport Canada will probably just photo-copy some old FAA document that lists Safety-Fliers and Safety-Stars and Pioneer K-20s as certified reserves!

Hah!
Hah!