Does this make this unairworthy

[chuck.johnson3 0]

I was told that this is a reserve riser type8 (rear left). How could this have happened the RES. Has anyone ever seen this before? The RES. Has 0 RES. Rides. Also something doesnt seem right in this picture but I cant put my finger on it.

STAY SAFE! Have Fun!

[councilman24 36]

easy

A rig with velcro for an RSL without the RSL installed and without the velcro covered. The hook velcro chews up the webbing. Yes I've seen it before and yes I'd consider this unairworthy.

What you may think is wrong is that the webbing doesn't have the yellow code threads along the edges. Type 8 doesn't have it. The front riser which is the same piece of webbing as the main lift web (in a harness without chest rings) and is probably Type 7 with the yellow code threads.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[diablopilot 2]

The big ass kink in the breakaway cable is pretty disturbing too....

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[d100965 0]

And who on earth flys a blue tarten coloured reserve?

[lilchief 0]

How deep would you say it has to be in order to differentiate between minor wear and critical damage?

I've seen this on many of the Atom student gear, but it has only been top surface damage, not down an inside the type 8 webbing over the shoulder.

"Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return." - Da Vinci
www.lilchief.no

[councilman24 36]

ANY velcro damage probably weakens the webbing.

We could stop the discussion right there and say that ANY decrease is to much. Not unreasonable for a reserve riser. But probably not practical.

In 1991 or 1993 at the PIA symposium a then employee of Relative Workshop, whose name I know but can't remember, presented a fairly good study of various types of damage. Velcro, cuts, sun hmmm I think. AFAIK that study was never 'published' anywhere. I took photos of all of his exhibits with the data on them in order to have a "copy". I haven't seen them in awhile.

IIRC, and I may not, the a sample similar to the worst velcro damage seen on a chest strap in the 'olden' days had a 30% loss in strength. Edge damage is much worse than damage in the middle.

I reject harnesses with damage from someone putting Rapide links on that some other riggers pack.

To me, I don't think 'deep' is the right description. If it's 'deep' at all I'd call it bad. If it looks like a snag rather than fuzz I'd say it's too bad. ESPECIALLY if even one large thread is broken. This is a zero failure item. And I'm very conservative. But with the crap I've seen jumped over the years I might be too conservative. Of course, we weren't exceeding the deployment speed limits regularly.

I won't have time in the near future but at some point I'll try to find those photos and scan them. The photos of the damage are needed to understand the data.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[Jiggs 0]

Interesting post

One of my rigs - an old NJ has the exact same thing on one of the reserve risers.

- I have heard mixed things on this with some riggers saying that it is okay (my rigger is in the former camp), versus others saying that they would not accept it as airworthy or at least get it checked out.

I must say that I know virtually nothing about the consturction of the reserve risers (and never having had a rig with an RSL) I would like some more information on the possible effects on riser strength. I thought that scruffing of the hook of the velcro would not alter the structural integrity of the riser?

Is there a way to test or check the riser (without stress testing it to the breaking point?)

Would this mean a trip back to the factory (e.g. equivalent of some harness work to get this sorted?)

Cheers,

Griggsy

(BTW I have had a terminal reserve ride on this container)

"Don't blame malice for what stupidity can explain."

"In our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart and in our despair, against our will comes wisdom" - Aeschylus

[councilman24 36]

Quote

Interesting post

One of my rigs - an old NJ has the exact same thing on one of the reserve risers.

- I have heard mixed things on this with some riggers saying that it is okay (my rigger is in the former camp), versus others saying that they would not accept it as airworthy or at least get it checked out.

I must say that I know virtually nothing about the consturction of the reserve risers (and never having had a rig with an RSL) I would like some more information on the possible effects on riser strength. I thought that scruffing of the hook of the velcro would not alter the structural integrity of the riser?

"Scruffing" of the reserve riser by hook velcro, based on the data I saw in the early 90's, would definately weaken the webbing. Enough to care? That's the question. Remember ANY fuzz means broken fibers in the webbing.

Quote

Is there a way to test or check the riser (without stress testing it to the breaking point?)

Not really. You could pull it to some % of rated strength tensile. But testing equipment would probably make it awkward to do on a harness rather than free piece of webbing and many would argue the testing would weaken it more. That's why I take a conservative view. There is no practical way to test it. And the data from the early 90's documented the loss in strength from various damage. That testing really made me more conservative. The good news is that we don't blow up harnesses for the most part. The two more recent Javelins that failed, last I knew, were still unexplained. Of cut damage at the site of failure may not be observable after the failure.

Quote

Would this mean a trip back to the factory (e.g. equivalent of some harness work to get this sorted?)

Yep, factory or harness work capable master rigger in the U.S, equivent in other countries. Reserve risers are sewn into and an integral part of the harness. In most traditional designs (no rings) the front reserve riser (on old rigs for round reserves from the 70's and 80's sometimes the ONLY riser) is actually the same piece of webbing as the main lift web/leg strap, type 7 or type 13 (Racer). The rear riser is sewn into junction at the main riser attachment, capewell or three ring or other, and is usually type 8. On some newer designs (rings mainly I think) both front and rear risers are type 7. In either case replacing a reserve riser envolves taking the harness apart on that side, replacing the webbing and restiching it. Or, sometimes it may make more since to get a whole new harness installed at the factory.

I've refused to pack three or four harnesses that had cut damage in the middle of the reserve riser from installing a french link. Putting #5 stainless, common size, on type 7 webbing takes some care and french links usually have a very sharp edge at the end of the threads. Other riggers have chose to pack some of these rigs, other owners have chosen to have it fixed.

If it's minor surface fuzz I'd probably let it go. If its major fuzz, like some old chest straps, snagging or cutting I'd probably not pack it.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[Jiggs 0]

Thanks for the feedback, quite interesting stuff.

I might post a photo when I get home. With my reserve risers the damage is far less than the one pictured, basically is about a centimetre in from the edge and is not continous. (Just a few small tufts)

Anyway thanks for the knowledge!

Cheers,

DG

"Don't blame malice for what stupidity can explain."

"In our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart and in our despair, against our will comes wisdom" - Aeschylus