PhreeZone 15 #51 January 3, 2005 Want to know how DZ's lose money on fun jumpers? Which one of the two groups (Students/Fun jumpers) ask for: Swoop ponds food vendor fire pits larger packing shelters creepers creeping pads wind blades larger mowed areas first aid kits TV's and VCR's for debriefing LO slots faster airplanes larger airplanes more parking area RV hookups Gear stores vendor days bunk rooms team trailers better PA systems Those are all the reasons I have off the top of my head as to why I know of some jumpers picking DZ A over DZ B. Now if DZ B wants to keep their existing jumpers they have to make the upgrades to compete against DZ A. All that money has to come from the $2-3 per jump that the DZ makes.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #52 January 3, 2005 Quotefind that most people would not be willing to try it if they did have the safety (even if only perceived) of an experienced jumper with them. Bingo. That's what some of us crusty old curmudgeons object to. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #53 January 3, 2005 QuoteQuotefind that most people would not be willing to try it if they did have the safety (even if only perceived) of an experienced jumper with them. Bingo. That's what some of us crusty old curmudgeons object to. LOL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #54 January 3, 2005 Well, when I did my tandems, I knew I was taking a risk. I did feel like it was a little less of a risk because I was jumping with someone who had done it 7000 times and was incredibly current, simply because it removed the inexperience factor from the list of reasons why shit goes wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #55 January 3, 2005 QuoteWant to know how DZ's lose money on fun jumpers? Which one of the two groups (Students/Fun jumpers) ask for: Swoop ponds food vendor fire pits larger packing shelters creepers creeping pads wind blades larger mowed areas first aid kits TV's and VCR's for debriefing LO slots faster airplanes larger airplanes more parking area RV hookups Gear stores vendor days bunk rooms team trailers better PA systems Those are all the reasons I have off the top of my head as to why I know of some jumpers picking DZ A over DZ B. Now if DZ B wants to keep their existing jumpers they have to make the upgrades to compete against DZ A. All that money has to come from the $2-3 per jump that the DZ makes. Yea shocking that you'd ever need to more parking space to accommodate all those extra customers. Just turn them away, it's much cheaper to lose the business. Firepits, they're fucking expensive these days. You can't turn a bunk room into a profit center I mean you'd have to charge $8 an night for that! Tandems never want to see their video before leaving the DZ. etc. etc. etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #56 January 3, 2005 with regards to fire pits, if you're in a city, you have to comply with fire codes or risk a citation. The dropzone would need permits for packing shelters, bunkhouses, ponds, RV hookups, etc, not to mention the permits they already need for the planes and fuel and fuel storage and machinery for dispensing fuel and all that shit. Permits for upgrades can be costly, and many permits have to be renewed every year. They have to pay for an inspection, plus the permits, which can range from several hundred to several thousand dollars each, and all that adds up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #57 January 3, 2005 QuoteJust turn them away, it's much cheaper to lose the business. Funny you should mention this. Because in the case of one DZ it was cheaper to turn them away. On a municipal airport they were only allowed so many parking spots, they could either buy land off DZ and shuttle jumpers back and forth or they could say screw it. It really was cheaper for them to lose the customers then to accomidate them. Places like Perris have it nice that they are able to draw in a crowd all the time, weekend only DZ's have a hard time justifying building a bunk house that will cost say $10k for constuction, permits, utilities, etc to get say $75 a weekend max. At a min it will take 2.5 years to pay off, but since most DZ's close for 4-6 months the rate of return might be 6-8 years. Anyone want to bet on how many DZ's here in the US will close this in 2005? 2004 had 3-4 close I know of. Lets see how many of them that close had tandems or if they were other methods or if they were just fun jumper DZ's.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NightJumper 0 #58 January 3, 2005 QuoteWhen I see a dropzone that fits this description, it makes me question what Ted Strong and Bill Booth were thinking when they created this jump method. Well, the obvious answer is that they created a product to meet a demand, otherwise it would have died away. I always find it entertaining to listen to people that try to slam those who have vision, wisdom and success of the same. QuoteWhy on earth would anyone think it would be a good idea to slap two bodies together under a single harness?When you say anybody who are you talking about? Do you mean the millions of people that have done tandems? Or is it the FAA, military etc.?QuoteWhere is the logic?You tell me since your opinion seems to conflict with about every expert on the subject. Do you really think that you are wiser than all of those people combined? NOT! QuoteIt looks ridiculous on video and the landings look frightening to say the least.According to whom? QuoteThe drogue chute exists only as band-aid to fix the problems of hard openings due to faster than normal freefall speeds.Again, not only is this not true but I find it amazing that you actually believe that you know more than everyone else. QuoteMaybe this should have been the first clue that this type of skydiving wasn’t such a great idea.Damn, am I glad that the industry and the end users ignored this "clue".QuoteIf tandems were outlawed because of their flawed concept, how do you think it would change the industry? Wow, good thing we are going with reality on this one and we will never know! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyangel2 2 #59 January 3, 2005 QuoteWhen I see a dropzone that fits this description, it makes me question what Ted Strong and Bill Booth were thinking when they created this jump method. So Mike could take Cara (sp?) on a tandemMay your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #60 January 3, 2005 Quote Anyone want to bet on how many DZ's here in the US will close this in 2005? 2004 had 3-4 close I know of. Lets see how many of them that close had tandems or if they were other methods or if they were just fun jumper DZ's. Well it ain't paying customers that's putting them out of business. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NightJumper 0 #61 January 3, 2005 QuoteSo Mike could take Cara (sp?) on a tandem(sp) is correct I guess that about takes any argument out of this thread! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyangel2 2 #62 January 3, 2005 QuoteI guess that about takes any argument out of this thread! Yup, cause it's all about you sweetie. Though I'd gladly go up and do a tandem with you any day.May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #63 January 3, 2005 You should really get out more. You know, get a life. Sparky What is that I smell, are you cooking food under that bridge?My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymama 35 #64 January 3, 2005 QuoteSo Mike could take Cara (sp?) on a tandem I think Mary hit the nail on the head. Bill and Ted initiated this whole scheme to use humans as guinea pigs just so they could pave the way for skydiving dogs! She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man, because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpwally 0 #65 January 3, 2005 Hey Kbone,,,Show us how to do it right,,,get a acctg firm to sit down and do a business plan for ya,,open a DZ if its just that EZ....and all doctors are millionare's too ,right? christ......will this shit ever end? wallysmile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #66 January 3, 2005 Quotewe all had to pay a considerable amount of money for both gear and training, we've earned that cheaper jump ticket. We've "earned" a cheaper jump ticket? WTF? What else have you "earned?" The right to not be grounded if you have a CYPRES fire? The right to exit a plane when you want? Hey, you spent a lot of money, right? You haven't earned a damned thing except your license. If you don't like the way a DZ operates, don't use it. Better yet, scrape together some cash and open your own for the fun jumpers. Oh, you haven't "earned" that yet? Until you open your own DZ (where the rules are what you make them) suck it up. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #67 January 3, 2005 QuoteAs a DZ owner, you should never be concerned with the bottom line. It's not about the money. It is about love for the sport. If that's the philosophy, then a DZ owner won't be a DZ owner for very long. There's this remarkable thing that tends to hit people pretty hard. It's called "reality." When the DZO says, "I'd like to keep this DZ open. Unfortunately, I'll have to close it in two months because I'll be broke" THAT is the bottom line. Christ. Why the hell can't some people understand that? My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #68 January 3, 2005 QuoteQuoteAs a DZ owner, you should never be concerned with the bottom line. It's not about the money. It is about love for the sport. If that's the philosophy, then a DZ owner won't be a DZ owner for very long. There's this remarkable thing that tends to hit people pretty hard. It's called "reality." When the DZO says, "I'd like to keep this DZ open. Unfortunately, I'll have to close it in two months because I'll be broke" THAT is the bottom line. Christ. Why the hell can't some people understand that? FWIW I agree with everything your saying, I also see you've changed your avatar from a birthday cake to cash. Is this thread the reason? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lawrocket 3 #69 January 3, 2005 QuoteI also see you've changed your avatar from a birthday cake to cash. Is this thread the reason? First, it was my son's t-sirt, not a birthday cake. And this thread is only part of the reason for changing it. It's also a "money shot" instead of a glamor shot. See that thread. And you can ask folks on here, it's me making fun of my career. I think folks' favorite so far was Jim Carrey's "LIAR LIAR" avatar... My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #70 January 3, 2005 You're welcome to go back to jumping 182's and paying the now inflated price of $45 per jump ticket. I doubt you've thought out the economics of running a DZ these days.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites flyangel2 2 #71 January 3, 2005 QuoteI think folks' favorite so far was Jim Carrey's "LIAR LIAR" avatar... I'm slow, but now I got it with the Jim Carey's avatarMay your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #72 January 3, 2005 QuoteOne thing I do think is a problem however is the extortionate price of a tandem jump for people wanting to participate in the sport. It has always seemed pretty expensive to me. Why can't we have equitable pricing for all? Why must we suffer these claims that fun jumping is supplemented by tandem jumpers? (The obvious interpretation is they've been overcharging tandem customers for years, if the claim is true) That is a CHOICE that DZO's make, not me, I don't set your prices. I show up and pay for my jumps and I believe it is possible to operate a DZ at a profit at the rates I pay, I've waited often enough for a full load for one of my fun jumps when no tandems were around so the load could make money for the DZ. I pay for my jump tickets, and I paid for my training (and continue to do so) and usually I pay for pack jobs. I'm not supplemented by anyone, there's competition for fun jumpers where I am and I make my decision on where to jump on several criteria not just price. If we are supplemented by tandem jumpers (a somewhat dubious claim, although fewer loads would go up without them), that's a situation that has been allowed to develop for years by DZOs. In reality I think DZ's make a profit off fun jumpers but make more margin off tandems and they've made improvements to equipment & facilities around that business. It they wanted to maintain similar profits without tandem jumpers they'd have to charge a bit more, but they may not be able to in some places with competition, it's just a different business with different margins. Blaming fun jumpers because we don't produce the same profit margin as the tandem cash cow is a silly argument. The new profitable windfall of tandem business is not an excuse to blame fun jumping for lower margins. DZ's that have become tandem factories are simply pursuing the higher margin business exclusively but possibly missing out on profit, but their life is probably a lot easier for it. That's their right, I think it's contemtible because they require TIs etc and they generally evolve from the larger sport. It's not unreasonable to say that tandem factories are supplemented in many ways by a healthy larger sport and its years in development. I'll agree that a larger margin is made on AFF students and Tandem students. It should be so, it's part of charging what the market will be able to sustain. Fun jumpers won't pay much over $20 a jump ticket. Period. What you're probably not factoring in to the thoughts above is the costs involved in tandem student operations. If you think of it as 2 slots and a jump master fee, then yes it might seem over priced, but you're forgetting the $8000 to $12000 rig, a pair of $200 jumpsuits, pair of $200 altimeters, goggles, the ground staff, equipment for the school, ect. Think about how much your of an investment your DZ's student equipment is. My old home DZ had 9 Sigma Tandem rigs....they're worth about $12,000 EACH, 8 student rigs, about $5000 each, and maintinence on that gear is expensive...... My current DZ has quite a bit more equipment than that....---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #73 January 3, 2005 QuoteI don't think student rates are high, AFF is a lot of training & supervision and the expensive jumps take two highly qualified AFFIs. Quality training & getting into the sport is the overriding goal. The profit margin is just about the same.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #74 January 3, 2005 QuoteDamn, I can't believe I got sucked into this thread. While I know you don't want to suport a know troll, I AM glad you did. Not enough of the people who REALLY know how small the profits in this industry are, are speaking up.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #75 January 3, 2005 QuoteAs a DZ owner, you should never be concerned with the bottom line. It's not about the money. It is about love for the sport. Right. And you're giving up everything you own to be a DZO tomorrow. Shut up.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. 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lawrocket 3 #69 January 3, 2005 QuoteI also see you've changed your avatar from a birthday cake to cash. Is this thread the reason? First, it was my son's t-sirt, not a birthday cake. And this thread is only part of the reason for changing it. It's also a "money shot" instead of a glamor shot. See that thread. And you can ask folks on here, it's me making fun of my career. I think folks' favorite so far was Jim Carrey's "LIAR LIAR" avatar... My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #70 January 3, 2005 You're welcome to go back to jumping 182's and paying the now inflated price of $45 per jump ticket. I doubt you've thought out the economics of running a DZ these days.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyangel2 2 #71 January 3, 2005 QuoteI think folks' favorite so far was Jim Carrey's "LIAR LIAR" avatar... I'm slow, but now I got it with the Jim Carey's avatarMay your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #72 January 3, 2005 QuoteOne thing I do think is a problem however is the extortionate price of a tandem jump for people wanting to participate in the sport. It has always seemed pretty expensive to me. Why can't we have equitable pricing for all? Why must we suffer these claims that fun jumping is supplemented by tandem jumpers? (The obvious interpretation is they've been overcharging tandem customers for years, if the claim is true) That is a CHOICE that DZO's make, not me, I don't set your prices. I show up and pay for my jumps and I believe it is possible to operate a DZ at a profit at the rates I pay, I've waited often enough for a full load for one of my fun jumps when no tandems were around so the load could make money for the DZ. I pay for my jump tickets, and I paid for my training (and continue to do so) and usually I pay for pack jobs. I'm not supplemented by anyone, there's competition for fun jumpers where I am and I make my decision on where to jump on several criteria not just price. If we are supplemented by tandem jumpers (a somewhat dubious claim, although fewer loads would go up without them), that's a situation that has been allowed to develop for years by DZOs. In reality I think DZ's make a profit off fun jumpers but make more margin off tandems and they've made improvements to equipment & facilities around that business. It they wanted to maintain similar profits without tandem jumpers they'd have to charge a bit more, but they may not be able to in some places with competition, it's just a different business with different margins. Blaming fun jumpers because we don't produce the same profit margin as the tandem cash cow is a silly argument. The new profitable windfall of tandem business is not an excuse to blame fun jumping for lower margins. DZ's that have become tandem factories are simply pursuing the higher margin business exclusively but possibly missing out on profit, but their life is probably a lot easier for it. That's their right, I think it's contemtible because they require TIs etc and they generally evolve from the larger sport. It's not unreasonable to say that tandem factories are supplemented in many ways by a healthy larger sport and its years in development. I'll agree that a larger margin is made on AFF students and Tandem students. It should be so, it's part of charging what the market will be able to sustain. Fun jumpers won't pay much over $20 a jump ticket. Period. What you're probably not factoring in to the thoughts above is the costs involved in tandem student operations. If you think of it as 2 slots and a jump master fee, then yes it might seem over priced, but you're forgetting the $8000 to $12000 rig, a pair of $200 jumpsuits, pair of $200 altimeters, goggles, the ground staff, equipment for the school, ect. Think about how much your of an investment your DZ's student equipment is. My old home DZ had 9 Sigma Tandem rigs....they're worth about $12,000 EACH, 8 student rigs, about $5000 each, and maintinence on that gear is expensive...... My current DZ has quite a bit more equipment than that....---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #73 January 3, 2005 QuoteI don't think student rates are high, AFF is a lot of training & supervision and the expensive jumps take two highly qualified AFFIs. Quality training & getting into the sport is the overriding goal. The profit margin is just about the same.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #74 January 3, 2005 QuoteDamn, I can't believe I got sucked into this thread. While I know you don't want to suport a know troll, I AM glad you did. Not enough of the people who REALLY know how small the profits in this industry are, are speaking up.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #75 January 3, 2005 QuoteAs a DZ owner, you should never be concerned with the bottom line. It's not about the money. It is about love for the sport. Right. And you're giving up everything you own to be a DZO tomorrow. Shut up.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
