Re: [flyana3] MILF BOOGIE

[JeffSkydiver 0]

My 2 cents:

It is inappropriate. Not just for the way it refers to women, but for the whole idea and the profanity. I don't have to be a woman to be offended at this.

I take my family to the DZ. The DZ isn't a frat house or a biker bar or an afterhours club or a hunting cabin or a poker game or a pool hall. It's a place where people go who like to skydive and their guests and spectators.

I do not want to hear the F word myself, and especially do not want the F bombs around my family. At the DZ there often are older folks and families just watching. Skydivers standing around or walking by talking in F bombs and other profanity is just not right.

When I hear it and know my kids or wife or others are around, I say something to the skydiver. He/she has always said "oops" I'm really sorry.

Skydiving is exciting and in expressing ourselves it's easy to lose control of the tongue in the heat of real good story. But we must try.

What people say to each other outside of others' hearing is their own business. I'm not the profanity police. But when they litter the auditory zone of others, then it becomes the business of those others.

All that being said, it is shameful that a DZ would allow the use of or the IMPLIED use of profanity in naming its events.

We shouldn't have to explain what the term means to our children or our mother - nor lie and pretend it means "fly."

To those who cannot seem to express themselves in more acceptable language and those who cannot name an event without using or implying profanity, I say, GROW UP!

Just my 2 cents.

jt

*

Let's all do this safe enough that we can still do this in our 90's.

[GTAVercetti 0]

Here is an excerpt from why you should not bring children to my DZ:

"Socially, a drop zone is like a bar where people jump instead of drink. We sometimes use general language filled with references to concepts and events that children might not be ready for. We talk about anything frankly without censorship. Without a parent immediately present to explain, a kid is in danger of misunderstanding the context or the content."

And personally, fuck is just a word. As the great George Carlin said, "There are no bad words, only bad intentions."

Just because someone decided long ago that it was a bad word does not mean that I have to abide by that.

Even so, if I am in a place where children are expected, I will temper my language. My DZ, however, is not such a place.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[ianmdrennan 2]

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Even so, if I am in a place where children are expected, I will temper my language. My DZ, however, is not such a place.

A-FUCKING-men

Performance Designs Factory Team

[JeffSkydiver 0]

Where did you get that excerpt from? Whatever the source, it does not nor cannot prescribe what the social climate is or should be for every dropzone. I am sure it is not a BSR on dz etiquette.

You refer to "your" dropzone. You have a right to run your dz anyway you want.

If you and I are customers at someone else's dropzone, then we are not at "your" dropzone.

The same social rules apply. Talk about anything you want using any language you desire. When however you are in public, then you have a responsiblity to act with decency. It's called maturity.

I am a skydiver so I have every right to be at a dz at the dzo's discretion and every right to bring my family. That makes me and them the "public."

If you own a dz and do not want me or my family there, because you know we will be offended by the language you use, just let me know.

Until then, you do not own the dz and you cannot unilaterally decide that I and my family are out of place or unwelcome there and that we must put up with profanity and rudeness just because you have decided that a dz is an inappropriate place for decent people and their families.

One step further, at the dz that I do not own but make nearly all my skydives, the owner regularly brings his son and has always welcomed families with children. Are you saying he is doing it all wrong?

If you try, eventually you will be able to build a vocabulary strong enough that you will be able to express yourself just as or even more vividly without resort to profanity.

"F" is just a word. It's a word that our society deems profane. If you choose to use it, go ahead. If you are in public, you will be offending people and polluting the environment of a child.

Skydiving attracts all sorts of people. Many however are young, rebellious alpha males who must go against the grain of civilized society, break rules and otherwise be the bad boys. For most it's a passing phase.

I wish you well,

jt

*

Let's all do this safe enough that we can still do this in our 90's.

[brierebecca 0]

Okay, I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree with you, even though this forum is supposed to be all about sensitivity to the issue at hand. I'm not saying it's wrong to be offended by the MILF title. People get offended by lots of different things, it's part of being an individual. I also don't have children, so no way am I going to pass judgment on how someone who IS a mother SHOULD feel about being styled as a MILF.

However, this thread has taken on a different character, and it's been really interesting to watch it unfold.

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The same social rules apply. Talk about anything you want using any language you desire. When however you are in public, then you have a responsiblity to act with decency. It's called maturity.

I am a skydiver so I have every right to be at a dz at the dzo's discretion and every right to bring my family. That makes me and them the "public."
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when you say this, you seem to be saying that using certain profanities and acting certain ways are in some way hazardous to society, and the way you act within it. You have every right to feel this way, but it doesn't mean that you can control the actions of others, and the rights they feel that they have. It also doesn't mean that you can expect people to act differently than they would otherwise. While some actions are against the law, it is not illegal to use profanity in everyday language, or to act in ways that you (personally) think are "immature." In fact, I would argue that saying and acting how we wish are part of the most sacred rights that we possess, and they're constitutionally protected. If you are offended by these actions or words, either for yourself or for your children, my suggestion would be to find some other place to jump (although it seems that your dropzone is very satisfactory to you).

I have heard dropzones described as adult playgrounds, and I find a lot of truth in that. We run around like kids, we use profanity, we host underwear parties, and the sexual innuendo is rampant. And, personally, I find nothing wrong with that. In fact, to me it makes my weekends more fun. And I, for one, would be really offended if my DZO asked me to stop squeezing my teammate's boobies and clean up my language. Not that he ever would
It's not wrong to feel the way you do, but it is wrong to expect others to feel the same way, and temper their actions because you or your kids are around. Personally, if I were concerned that my children would be exposed to certain things at a DZ, my course of action would be to not take them there, rather than expect the skydivers there to be on their best behavior.

mua!

Brie

"Ive seen you hump air, hump the floor of the plane, and hump legs. You now have a new nickname: "Black Humper of Death"--yardhippie

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[davelepka 4]

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"F" is just a word. It's a word that our society deems profane.

Thats where you lost your argument. The term 'our society' sinks your ship. Maybe your society has deemed it such, but on a DZ where the majority of jumpers tolerate the usage, that society is accepting of the usage.

Futhermore, 'our society' cannot be used in reference to America in general. The usage is rampant in movie theaters, on television shows, in auto shops, and high school locker rooms nationwide. Of course those are private institutions, so thats OK. What do you think a DZ is? I have yet to go to a 'public' DZ, as in owned and funded by local government using taxpayer dollars, and having to adhere to the 'values' of those taxpayers.

If someone were blasting profane language from a loudspeaker while driving past a playground, yeah, that sucks, and should be stopped. At the DZ? I don't think so.

[JeffSkydiver 0]

Brie,

I do not disagree with you at all, believe it or not.

I agree that none of us have the right to force others to conform to what we think is decent or correct behavior. That cuts both ways.

That's why we have private property rights. It's the DZO's call - it's their property.

If your DZO wants an environment that I find offensive, it's my responsibility to go elsewhere.

If another DZO wants an environment that others would find too restrictive on profanity etc., it's the skydiver's responsibility to go elsewhere.

My main point is DZ's are not automatically and in every case, just by the fact that it is a DZ, a place where profanity and sexual play are free to prevail.

It's not up to skydive customers, me or anyone else, to say here is what must or must not occur here. It is up to the DZO.

A skydiver at a DZ, just because he or she is a skydiver, does not have the automatic right to go to any DZ he or she chooses and use language inappropriate to families.

That said, no one I have ever encountered has felt intruded upon by curbing their language around children or little old ladies. When politely asked to do so, I have never met resistence when I have very courteously asked someone to adjust their language around my family. I mean, it's much more inconvenient for an entire family to get up and leave in the middle of a meal in a restaurant than it is for one young man to stop loudly saying "F" every other word at the next table for the next 20 minutes or so while we finish a meal. No one has ever refused or appeared offended.

There is always a difference between what is legal vs. what is right or wrong, or appropriate or innapropriate. Legality alone is not the judge of decency. For instance, there is no law against intentionally sneezing on someone else's food at a restaurant, but it just aint right. There is no law against backing your butt up to someone's ear while they are eating and blowing a fart - but it just aint right. (funny perhaps).

We have sunk into moral relativism: "there is no objective right and wrong; everyone is free to choose what they want." The flaw in that argument remains the same. By choosing to use profanity in public loud enough to be heard by children, one has forced his or her view of right and wrong on the listener and deprived the listener of the very right the speaker hold sacred.

oh well.

DZ's are all a little bit different - thank God.

jt

*

Let's all do this safe enough that we can still do this in our 90's.

[GTAVercetti 0]

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Where did you get that excerpt from?

Off of my home DZ's website

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The same social rules apply. Talk about anything you want using any language you desire. When however you are in public, then you have a responsiblity to act with decency. It's called maturity.

I would really like to know what maturity has to do with the use of the word fuck. I think it would be much more immature if I were to say "Frank is a stupid poopiehead who drinks his own pee-pee" and yet there is not a single swear word in that sentence.

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One step further, at the dz that I do not own but make nearly all my skydives, the owner regularly brings his son and has always welcomed families with children. Are you saying he is doing it all wrong?

No, it is not wrong. However, the DZ's I have been to and the pictures I have seen of other DZ's tell me that we, as skydivers, often like to lay the numbers naked, look at boobies, drink beer, run around naked, and talk about sex. Your's is different. There is nothing wrong with that. You will notice that in my post I clearly stated MY DZ, not yours.

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If you try, eventually you will be able to build a vocabulary strong enough that you will be able to express yourself just as or even more vividly without resort to profanity.

I have a very good ability to express my self quite vividly with swear words or without.

The Father at the church where I used to go would tell us how we did not need to swear. How in other countries people did not swear but though of more colorful ways to insult people. Like saying "That guy is a yellow bellied toad" instead of "That guy is a dick". But tell me how the meaning behind either sentence is any different if they are both meant as insults? If I yell in an loud and angry way WITHOUT swearing around a child, is that child less enclined to be tramautized than if I had used a profane word while doing it?

In any case, this has digressed into a very interesting thread.
Quick response to the most recent post by Jeff. If you were to ask me to stop, I certainly would. That is respect for other people and I am fine with that.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[ianmdrennan 2]

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Until then, you do not own the dz and you cannot unilaterally decide that I and my family are out of place or unwelcome there and that we must put up with profanity and rudeness just because you have decided that a dz is an inappropriate place for decent people and their families.

No one said you weren't welcome, just that you have to accept it's primarily an adult environment. Think of it like taking your child to an R rated movie - you don't have to, but if you chose to then that's your problem - not the movies.

A dz is in public, in public there is no law saying I can't run around dropping the F bomb whenever I or anyone else feels like it. It's also a pretty large place where you can simply move away from the offending conversation.

Seriously don't expect people to bend around your whim or definition of what you do or don't think acceptable is. If the owner has issue with it, it's entirely within their right to address it. If they don't address it then they're ok with it so deal with it. If no laws are being broken the issue, is quite simply, yours and no one elses.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[JeffSkydiver 0]

Dave,

I agree. DZ's are privately owned as opposed to being government institutions.

That has nothing to do however with whether the DZ is open to the "public."

"Public places" means open to the public; the term has nothing to do with ownership.

Take Walmart for instance or any other store: the stockholders own the store, not the government, but they are "public places" ie., open to the public.

At the DZ I regularly go to, the restaurant is open to the public, so is the spectator area and the store etc. Those are public places - skydivers and nonskydivers alike. The DZO's office, manifest etc are not open to the public.



No one can force my family to watch inappropriate movies etc. Using profane language in "public places" on the DZ or not, is forcing profanity upon them.

I honestly believe what skydivers say or do on the plane, boarding area, packing area, training rooms etc etc. hey have a nut. Say it all.

In the "public" areas of the DZ, restaurant, etc., where the public includes (with the open arms of the DZO) non skydivers and families, then I think what you would or would not shout out of a loud speaker next to an elementary school is a real good guide to appropriateness.

Best to you,

jt

*

Let's all do this safe enough that we can still do this in our 90's.

[JeffSkydiver 0]

Ian,

I only disagree with your assertion that DZs are automatically R rated places.

It's up to the DZO. If the DZO wants an R rated environment, fine, I have no problem with that.

But that does not make every DZ R rated.

I'm just sensitive on this because of the examples. I've seen entire extended families go to the DZ because one of them is doing a tandem. Do we have to say it's just like the whole family decided to go to an R rated movie? How would they know that before this, their first venture onto a DZ?

Do you really mind not dropping F bombs within earshot of grandma and grandpa waiting for their grandson to make his tandem? With their other younger grandchildren beside them?

Do you really believe "too bad for them... their on my turf now?"

Curious,

jt

*

Let's all do this safe enough that we can still do this in our 90's.

[skymama 35]

This thread was off topic in the Women's Forum. Please continue to discuss it here.

She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon

[ianmdrennan 2]

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I only disagree with your assertion that DZs are automatically R rated places.

It's up to the DZO. If the DZO wants an R rated environment, fine, I have no problem with that.

I agree that it's the DZO's call, my experiences have always been that DZ's are R rated. I'm sure there are those out there that aren't but I'd bet they're few and far between.

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Do you really mind not dropping F bombs within earshot of grandma and grandpa waiting for their grandson to make his tandem? With their other younger grandchildren beside them?

Nope, I don't feel bad 1 little bit. BUT like you said, if someone asks me to tone it down, I'll happily do it. It's not my goal to upset people so I'll respect their wishes if I can but at the same time I'm not ashamed one little bit of the actions and language I use. It's like smokers - I'd appreciate it if they didn't smoke around me (and I'll ask them not to) but if they don't want to do so they're under no law (yet) that requires them to do so, so I'll simple step away.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[blueskyserenity 0]

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My 2 cents:

It is inappropriate. Not just for the way it refers to women, but for the whole idea and the profanity. I don't have to be a woman to be offended at this.

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And as a woman and mom I'm NOT offended by this.

Will I take my children, mother or co-workers along if this MILF decides to go to that boogie? That's a great big "HELL NO!".

I have 3 modes (in general). Work mode, mommy mode, and mari mode. When Mari's out to play...anything goes, yes, even dirty words (sometimes quite filthy, actually). Definately not the case otherwise.

Everyone has control of their actions. And I do think, in general, people are conscious of their behavior and if politely asked to 'chill' they will. But honestly, as a parent with small children, I remove them from the situation if I think they shouldn't be exposed to it. I assess situations immediately. If I'm not feeling it the first few minutes. I'm out of there.

Back to the whole MILF idea, every man for himself, to each his own, and as a MILF, I am truly not offended in the least bit.

I like coconuts. You can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun!

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[Zenister 0]

a DZ is a place where adults come to play.. bring your kids if you wish, but be aware they are very likely to see and hear some thing you'd rather they not...

Too fucking bad please, say something to me about how i express myself verbally (or even read the back of a few shirts around the DZ) and i'm going to laugh at you, and then apologize to your kids for the fact that YOU exposed them to our enviroment...

having your kids out there does nothing to contribute to the skydiving experience, and very little to contribute financially to the DZ at all...

haha found my previous post on the same topic...http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=565563#565563

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I agree other peoples kids are wonderful, but keep the out of my lines...

personally i prefer a less 'family' environment, I hate getting 'glares' from parents because i come down amped from a jump and use words they dont want their little ones to hear..

if you bring them, control them yourself (or make arrangements with someone who will) and remember this is dropzone, an activity primarily for adults, so expect adult situations or just wrap your spawns head in duct tape so they wont observe anything you dont like

some DZ's have a very family environment (of course you have to think about the activity that created that as well) and that can be a nice thing, but once the beer light is on they usually vanish.... but you should remember the dropzone doesnt exist for your kids (they cant jump at most) so their considerations are secondary.. as i'll take my business elsewhere if a DZ attempted to impose such morality to our activity.. and most skydivers i know would as well

this isnt disneyland....so dont expect any apologies, you certainly wont get one from me...because we are enjoying ourselves, and YOU brought your kids to our playground...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[SkiD_PL8 0]

This is from personal experience at my old DZ. Our FJC instructor regularly brought his I believe 1 allmost 2 year old son out and he would hang out and play with the skydivers. He was supervised at all times and was great fun to have around. This came at the price of having to watch our language. Some people liked it some did not, I for one did not mind. I do feel that at the DZ's I have visited the atmosphere is more adult oriented however I am sure there are some where that is not the case. A DZO can call a boogie anything he wants though you will just have to live with that.

Greenie in training.

[turtlespeed 212]

It is indeed rare that I find something in Bonfire that surprises me.

This did.

I have not, to my reccolection, read anything quite as judgemental or condescending coming from a skydiver, without it being pure irony and sarcasm.

This guy CAN NOT BE SERIOUS.

If so,

I truly feel sorry for anyone that you have any influence over the way they learn or think.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Slappie 9]

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This thread was off topic in the Women's Forum. Please continue to discuss it here.

Waahhooo! Thanks skymama a serious discussion we can watch. Looks like a knock down drag out here. Got a Shiner Bock to share? I buy you fly if not


Wonder if we can hijack this one?

"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them."

[diablopilot 2]

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Just my 2 cents.

Get over it. A DZ is:

a) an adult play ground. Please leave both your dogs and kids at home. Dogs are slightly more welcome. Adults who go to the DZ for their release from life's stresses should not have to feel restricted in their behaviors, simply because you don't want to find a babysitter. The DZ is a dangerous place with the potential for death, and injury. Just perfect for impresionable youth, huh?

b) almost always privately owned. They can name whatever boogie whatever they like. Don't like it? Don't go! Didn't see a whole bunch of people getting all worked up about "American Pie, or for that matter mainstream media these days.

Stop telling me what I should do, listen to, or think.

Just my buck fitty........

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Slappie 9]

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Just my 2 cents.

Get over it. A DZ is:

a) an adult play ground. Please leave both your dogs and kids at home. Dogs are slightly more welcome. Adults who got to the DZ for there release from life's stresses should not have to feel restricted in their behaviors, simply because you don't want to find a babysitter. The DZ is a dangerous place with the potential for death, and injury. Just perfect for impresionable youth, huh?

b) almost always privately owned. They can name whatever boogie whatever they like. Don't like it? Don't go! Didn't see a whole bunch of people getting all worked up about "American Pie, or for that matter mainstream media these days.

Stop telling me what I should do, listen to, or think.

Just my buck fitty........

Fuckin`a right brother!

The DZ is no place for children or the easily offended. Specially if I'm on Jagerbombs and brewskis. You're going to find yourself extremely offended and shit.

Have to edit.. I don't drink & jump.. I was refering to when the beer light came on. You'll still be offended.

"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them."

[superman0710 0]

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This thread was off topic in the Women's Forum. Please continue to discuss it here.

i <3 skymama :o

as for the thread. i use 'fuck' as a comma, it's almost punctuation to me.


i'm supposed to hurl myself out of a plane and come down and say "tee-hee, that was fun!"

WRONG


FUCK YEAH! is the appropriate response.

[Zenister 0]

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Do you really mind not dropping F bombs within earshot of grandma and grandpa waiting for their grandson to make his tandem? With their other younger grandchildren beside them?

nope not at all. Words only have the power you give them.. but then i'm guessing you havent been around to many 'fresh' tandems either

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daughter: so me'maw how was it?
grandma(fresh from her first tandem): oh my god! that was FUCKING incredible... proceeds to kiss everyone in reach, even the skydivers she doesnt know and were not on her jump

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[BillyVance 34]

I don't mean to hijack the thread, but would this shitstorm have been averted if the DZ in question had called it a MILK boogie 'Mothers I'd Like to Kiss' and held it on Mother's Day weekend??? And instead of beer, offer milk after the beer light goes on... [Sly]

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[WrongWay 0]

9 dropzones out of 10 are not places for children if you don't want them hearing the words fuck, shit, or chickenfucker.

Skydiving is (mostly) for people 18 and over. Those who jump younger are generally teenagers when they start jumping, and already know enough to know that the dz is pretty much the equivalent of a bar, and they know what to expect.

Don't get me wrong, I love kids, and when there are kids at the dz you'll generally see me playing catch with them or frisbee or something of that nature between loads. But still, it's not a good environment for them, and in some cases, it can be a danger to us (ie. if someone's kid runs out into the landing area).

If you bring your kid to the DZ, do not expect a daycare center. Do not expect everyone to tone down their behavior just because you chose to introduce them to that environment. I'll watch my mouth around them, but not everyone will.

It's very noble to speak out and say that you don't agree with a term someone is using to describe a boogie and give reasons why. But if you don't like it, don't take your family, it's as simple as that. If you bring your kids along and they go home that night with a new vocabulary, it's not our fault for being dirty talking skydivers, it's your fault for being dumb enough to bring them there.

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[AggieDave 6]

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offer milk after the beer light goes on...

Naw, White Russians, so it looks sort of like milk but is better for you then milk.

As for the language?

Its a fucking DZ!

If there are kids about I watch my language, if I have a student, I watch my language, BUT eitherway its an adult playground. Where else would you go in which you have to be 18 to play and it not be an adult playground with adult situations and language?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."