smears 0 #1 January 27, 2009 My dz has recently switched from spring loaded pilot chutes to throw outs on the student rigs. We're having a hard time figuring out what to use for PRCP's though. Those of ya'll that use the S/L or IAD progression, what do you use? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydived19006 4 #2 January 27, 2009 For IAD Practice Pilot Chute Throws (PPCT) we use newspaper. I think I use one sheet wadded into a tight ball, then a couple folded around, and taped off at the base of the ball. Think of a doll head, with dress. Very cheep, and depending on the tape all biodegradable.Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #3 January 27, 2009 Not an instructor, yadda yadda, but (honest question): Why would you use a dummy ripcord with a BOC?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smears 0 #4 January 27, 2009 I'd answer you're question, but I don't understand what you're asking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smears 0 #5 January 27, 2009 Thanks :). I think we'll try that this weekend. We were cutting an empty toilet paper roll in half and putting a few paper towels around it to stuff into the BOC. Seemed like an ok idea on the ground, but as soon as the students sat down in the 182, the tp roll would flatten Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,371 #6 January 27, 2009 QuoteNot an instructor, yadda yadda, but (honest question): Why would you use a dummy ripcord with a BOC? I think they mean practice pulls for a BOC, and how to simulate that properly since a ripcord would be in the wrong place. And how to do it with something cheap, easy and won't be too messy since you are going to lose all of them. What do you use to teach someone to throw it away??"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smears 0 #7 January 27, 2009 What makes you think the ripcord is in the wrong place? Our student rigs have a ripcord housing attached to the bottom of the container, then a BOC Pouch on top of that (sounds confusing without a pic, but they were ordered that way.) Yes, we're going to loose all of them, but that is better in my opinion than having a first jump student w/ a spring loaded PC over the nose. The PC over the nose was happening a lot (plus a pain to pack), which was our motivation to switch to throw outs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,371 #8 January 27, 2009 Quote What makes you think the ripcord is in the wrong place? Our student rigs have a ripcord housing attached to the bottom of the container, then a BOC Pouch on top of that (sounds confusing without a pic, but they were ordered that way.) Yes, we're going to loose all of them, but that is better in my opinion than having a first jump student w/ a spring loaded PC over the nose. The PC over the nose was happening a lot (plus a pain to pack), which was our motivation to switch to throw outs. Because the student rigs at my DZ that are ripcord have the handle on the right hip, while the throwouts are BOC. (Sweethogs and Wings respectively). I was just trying to answer the question as I understood it. He had said honest question, and you said you didn't understand it. Not being smart-ass, or rude or anythingI was NOT questioning your motives for switching (yes those spring-loaded PCs are a royal pain to pack) And thanks for asking the original question. I had never thought about what to use to teach someone to throw it away."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peek 20 #9 January 27, 2009 Quote...but that is better in my opinion than having a first jump student w/ a spring loaded PC over the nose. The PC over the nose was happening a lot ... May I change the subject for a moment? How often does that happen, and what are you finding results when that takes place? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #10 January 27, 2009 We still do a fair amount of jumps with springloaded pilotchutes, it's only very seldom that they have the pilotchute over the nose thing and when they do, heck it's a big canopy it's usually absolutely fine. If it happens so often at your DZ there may be something off in the setup somewhere? ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #11 January 27, 2009 If you guys use WDIs you will find that WDI paper makes a good dummy pc toss paper; very easy to see. Riggerrob made us up dedicated TPCT thingies that were a parapack dildo with a proper pvc pc handle on one end and a short length (maybe 18") of bungee on the other. At the end of the bungee was about 2" of a stiff fabric. On the right legstrap he sewed a short loop of ribbon to install a rubber band. We then wrapped the rubber band around the stiff material on the end of the bungee. The student throws the dildo away like a pc and it dangles from the leg strap for the descent, If the dummy entangles with anything during deployment the connection to the rig easily releases. Works well for the jump as well as for training. If you do not have to re-stow the pc each time your JMs will make the students do more practice reps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smears 0 #12 January 27, 2009 I don't have an exact percentage, but it happened often enough that we decided to look at other options. Sometimes a pc over the nose wouldn't affect the canopy at all. Sometimes it would be over the nose and off to the side causing the canopy to be in a constant slow turn unless the student countered it with a toggle. I personally have dealt with both while some friends and I were doing pre-reqs for the s/l instructor class. Not a big deal for an experienced jumper, but it is for a student. Something might be wrong with the setup, but that's the way they came from the factory. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gato 0 #13 January 27, 2009 Quote Something might be wrong with the setup, but that's the way they came from the factory. If that's happening pretty often, could that be a packing issue? I learned via static line, and the only time I had a PC issue was on one of my last 30-second delays, where it flopped down below the tail and wrapped the bridle around the #5 D line. Scared me a little, but after a control check, I realized the main was ok. I remember packing a static line rig, and the nose gets a completely different treatment (Folded over once) from a freefall rig, where you might leave it hanging or roll both sides inward with the center cell stuffed between them. Just curious.T.I.N.S. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teason 0 #14 January 28, 2009 We stopped putting paper in BOCs years ago. I found that the paper caused the student to focus on the pull and not the body position. Now before everyone gets all "but they have to focus on pulling" and "life survival skills" the goal at this stage is to teach stability through the pull sequence, not tell them they "just died" when they land with the paper and erode their confidence! Also, with BOCs, the moment the bag comes out the container means that the paper is NOT where a pull is supposed to be! The paper tends to be an unfair test and breeds anxiety into the student. I first became an IAD instructor in the days of leg pulls. Paper back then actually proved to the student how easy it can be to find the handle. The introduction of BOC made the paper pull a poor and even counterproductive task. In many cases, the only way to help a student who keeps twisting and focus on the paper above all else was to make them leave the paper on the ground and have them focus on stability through the pull sequence. I've trained practice pulls without paper for several years now and I've found that practice pulls without paper enforces the kinestetic skill, creates more positive successes on tasks and extra pull practice on the ground gives the confidence of knowing where the handle is! Originally I felt weird about not using paper because "it's what we've always done" but it has improved how well first freefalls go!I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #15 January 28, 2009 QuoteQuoteNot an instructor, yadda yadda, but (honest question): Why would you use a dummy ripcord with a BOC? I think they mean practice pulls for a BOC, and how to simulate that properly since a ripcord would be in the wrong place. And how to do it with something cheap, easy and won't be too messy since you are going to lose all of them. What do you use to teach someone to throw it away?? I suppose I should have been more clear - my apologies. AFF teaches a practice TOUCH - why can't you just do that?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #16 January 28, 2009 Mike, They are talking about S/L or IAD. Not AFF. There's no time to do practice touches. So, they have them actually pull something right off the bat out the door. It's easy to see that something gets pulled properly. Hard to tell if something gets "touched" properly. Disposable dummy throw-outs are good for that. But for S/L or IAD, it does, as as has already been mentioned, create other problems when the student focus is on pulling something rather than body position. AFF students have the time to do PRCPs while focusing on body position to prepare for the actual pull.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #17 January 28, 2009 Just out of curiosity...you guys have no AFFIs at Flying Tigers?My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peek 20 #18 January 28, 2009 QuoteWe stopped putting paper in BOCs years ago. I found that the paper caused the student to focus on the pull and not the body position. Very interesting to hear about the success you are having with that! What do you tell them to touch? Do you have them practice on thew ground with a handle so they know where it _would_ be? QuoteAlso, with BOCs, the moment the bag comes out the container means that the paper is NOT where a pull is supposed to be! Yep, in some case this is true with ripcords too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #19 January 28, 2009 Quote Mike, They are talking about S/L or IAD. Not AFF. There's no time to do practice touches. So, they have them actually pull something right off the bat out the door. It's easy to see that something gets pulled properly. Hard to tell if something gets "touched" properly. Disposable dummy throw-outs are good for that. But for S/L or IAD, it does, as as has already been mentioned, create other problems when the student focus is on pulling something rather than body position. AFF students have the time to do PRCPs while focusing on body position to prepare for the actual pull. I started on S/L, in my skydiving life. No dummy r/c, just doing the pulling motion. "Arch, look, reach, pull"Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smears 0 #20 January 28, 2009 The DZO is an AFFI and we have 2 other guys we can call if we need them. Most of our students are (poor) college kids. It's easier for them to afford a $200 fjc and $50 for jumps for 2-24, than over $300 for a fjc course and $200 for the next few jumps. Plus, we have a C-182, in the time it would take to get 1 AFF student to 10,500, we can dump out 3 students at 3,500 and have them back on the ground. Not to change the subject to AFF vs. S/L though Thanks for the help everyone, I think we'll try some of these ideas Sunday. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Heatmiser 0 #21 January 28, 2009 We use a piece of webbing approx 3 feet in length, with a 12 to 18 inch piece of bright orange vinyl with a handle on it just like our student pilot chutes. the webbing attaches to the leg strap, it has a velcro breakaway area in the middle of the webbing in the event of entanglement, but we don't lose them. The round bright orange vinyl is easy for the instructors to see. Sorry if this is clear as mud.What you say is reflective of your knowledge...HOW ya say it is reflective of your experience. Airtwardo Someone's going to be spanked! Hopefully, it will be me. Skymama Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites