Velcroless Reserve Risers?

[Blink 0]

Hey guys, after searching for a while, I haven't been able to find an answer to my question.

Why are reserve risers not yet velcroless? Can we not make a secure enough toggle keeper? I'm just wondering because a friend of mine had to send his reserve to get new brakelines due to the hook velcro chewing the lines.

Thanks,

Blink

[pchapman 262]

Quote

I'm just wondering because a friend of mine had to send his reserve to get new brakelines due to the hook velcro chewing the lines.

You mean because he didn't stow his brake lines after landing after a mal? I've seen that happen -- soft PD brake lines all fuzzed up after just one jump and then carelessly dumped in the gear bag without replacing the toggles. Or did the line catch the velcro some other way?

At least one major company got rid of the velcro. The Wings rig, right? Other companies just don't seem to have bothered when the old way is simple and usually works, even if velcroless has advantages.

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

Hey guys, after searching for a while, I haven't been able to find an answer to my question.

Why are reserve risers not yet velcroless? Can we not make a secure enough toggle keeper? I'm just wondering because a friend of mine had to send his reserve to get new brakelines due to the hook velcro chewing the lines.

Thanks,

Blink

Before the rush to Velcro-less risers on mains you almost never heard of a “brake fire” on deployment. There are a couple of reasons in my opinion but that is another topic. The fact is a brake fire on a low reserve deployment would ruin your day. Plus I doubt they would make it through the TSO testing process.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[chutingstar 1]

Quote

Hey guys, after searching for a while, I haven't been able to find an answer to my question.

Why are reserve risers not yet velcroless? Can we not make a secure enough toggle keeper? I'm just wondering because a friend of mine had to send his reserve to get new brakelines due to the hook velcro chewing the lines.

Thanks,

Blink

The new Javelin's have velcroless reserve toggles. Some photos here:

http://www.chutingstar.com/archives/00000129.html

Wings technically has no velcro on its reserve toggles, but it still has a velcro cover for the brake-toggle lines and covering the top of the toggle.

Mike

ChutingStar.com

[riggerpaul 1]

Quote

Quote

I'm just wondering because a friend of mine had to send his reserve to get new brakelines due to the hook velcro chewing the lines.

At least one major company got rid of the velcro. The Wings rig, right? Other companies just don't seem to have bothered when the old way is simple and usually works, even if velcroless has advantages.

True, the Wings does not use velcro on the toggle itself.

But they didn't quite get rig of all the velcro.

The keepers for spare brake line are still velcro. The hook side of this velcro does not necessarily get exposed during a deployment.

But I have seen people mess with it and leave some exposed after a reserve ride.

So even a Wings is not totally free from the risk of velcro damage to the reserve lines.

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

Mike,

Like Chuting said, the new Jav's do have Velcor-less toggles on their reserve risers. So, eveidently, it did make it through the TSO process.

Also, I too have had to send PD Reserves back for a reline after lines have come in contact with Velcro; either on the reserve risers or freebag pocket. I don't know what it is about the lines PD uses on their reserves (un-waxed ??), but you get that stuff within' 10' of Velcro and it will jump across the room and attach itself to it. I hate it, so, less and less Velcro is a good thing, IMO.

Howerver, like everything else... there's Pro's and Con's to everything.

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

Like Chuting said, the new Jav's do have Velcor-less toggles on their reserve risers. So, eveidently, it did make it through the TSO process.

Not necessarily. Many times a manufacturer will simply make a change and document the change as "Minor", not requiring any additional testing.

Sometimes these "Minor" changes result in a rig that looks nothing like the previous generations.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

Quote

Quote

Like Chuting said, the new Jav's do have Velcor-less toggles on their reserve risers. So, evidently, it did make it through the TSO process.

Not necessarily. Many times a manufacturer will simply make a change and document the change as "Minor", not requiring any additional testing.

Sometimes these "Minor" changes result in a rig that looks nothing like the previous generations.

DB,

Yes, I knew that when I said that. Anyway, technically this is allowed within the TSO process, correct? Thus, all arguments aside, the system is still TSO'ed.

[diablopilot 2]

Yes, the hypothetical item in question would be TSO'd.

It may or may not have been involved in TSO testing.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

Quote

It may or may not have been involved in TSO testing.

Ah! Yes... and there in lies the crux of the matter. Now if we want to argue whether or not mfgr's should or shouldn't be allowed to make "minor" changes to a rig without having to go back and retest the system to maintain the TSO... that's a different thread.


OBTW... I've had break fires with mains / main risers that had Velcro style toggles AND with mains / main risers with Velco-less style toggles. So, I don't think one can argue one or the other is clearly superior. Pro's and Con's to everything, grasshopper, Pro's and Con's to everything...

[Blink 0]

Re brake fires.
Has anyone ever had a brake fire on Type8 (is that correct?) risers? I personally find it hard to believe that the slider can come down with enough force to go over the larger risers, continue down, and push the toggle out?

Just a thought.

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

I think I've had just as many break fires on Type 8 risers as with Type 17 risers.

I've even had the dreaded dual break fire on a rig / main that had Type 8 risers with Velcro toggles.

I agree with you that the slider coming down hard & Type 17 risers where the slider can more easily continue down the risers could cause a break fire... but that's not the only way they happen.

[Blink 0]

Really? I didn't know (I've never heard of it until now) that it happened.

Would you (or anyone else) mind explaining other scenerios which might cause brake fires?

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

Quote

Would you (or anyone else) mind explaining other scenerios which might cause brake fires?

Improperly stowed breaks... i.e. toggle through the cat's eye above the guide ring on the riser, but stowed in the keeper.

Excessively worn out Velcro on Velcro style toggles.

Too large a cat's eye in the steering line.

Jumper reaching for risers on opening knocks loose one or both toggles.



Improperly stowed excess steering line after stowing the breaks while packing.

[Blink 0]

I've personally packed my rig once with the brake through the cat's eye above the guide ring, resulting in a ripped keeper and brake fire. (velcro toggles)

So I'm wondering, are we anymore ahead using velcro then velcroless? It seems like if it is bad enough to release a brake on Type8 velcroless, it'd probably do the same to velcro.

Blink

[Blink 0]

Quote

You mean because he didn't stow his brake lines after landing after a mal?

Actually, some guy sold him the reserve, and the rigger caught it whle being inspected/packed.

This is what made me think of the velcroless risers, and I had thought I saw them before, I guess it must have been on the Chuting Star website.

Blink

[erdnarob 1]

On a Vector III reserve risers, if the fuzz and hook parts of the velcro are well matched, suspension lines and extra steering lines will have no contact with the hook part of the velcro. OTOH you don't even have to undo the velcro to release the brakes. Getting rid of the velcro and using 2 channels to stow the extra length of steering line on a reserve can lead to problem like it's the case for main in some rare occasions. Velcro properly used seems to be safer and the fact it is installed on a reserve is what we should have...safety.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[riggerrob 558]

The primary reason we see so few Velcro-less toggles on reserves (Wings and new Javelins) is that parachute manufacturers are conservative.
Velcro worked great for main toggles for many decades and they are reluctant to mess with success. consider that Velcro - inside reserve containers - usually out-lasts the rest of the harness. I have never had to replace Velcro inside a reserve container.

Yes, the un-coated Spectra (Microline) suspension lines on PD and Swift Plus reserves are far more vulnerable to Velcro damage.

I still believe that the leading cause of main "brake fires" is sloppy packing. I have stopped dozens of people from closing rigs until they re-set cat's-eyes BELOW the steel ring. I even suffered a "brake fire" myself, but blamed it on sloppy packing.