Stumpy 256 #51 July 13, 2005 QuoteI can't remember the last time I saw a board on a plane I can - it was holiday boogie and it was Douva, with Cielodiosa following him out. I thought it looked pretty cool!! Good luck guysNever try to eat more than you can lift Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #52 July 13, 2005 QuoteYou can have skysurfing all day long...But you don't need to hold a competition for 4 teams. It makes no sense. Explain to me why we should bother to have a competition class when only 4 teams are gonna show up? Cause I don't get it. If for no other reason, it gives a selection process of -who- will go to the World Meet. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #53 July 13, 2005 QuoteIf for no other reason, it gives a selection process of -who- will go to the World Meet. And I have said that is the ONLY good reason given so far."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,651 #54 July 13, 2005 QuoteQuote We don't do 10 way like we used to, 20 way went away, scoring rules for RW changed, Freestyle is all but dead, Style and ACC is dying...Its normal for things to change. This is nothing but another change. You are right, but I'd point out that in the last few Nationals, 10-way RW had the third largest number of participants. Only 4-way and 8-way RW had more. If an event can't generate 15 contestants from a country the size of the USA, it should go away IMO.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Douva 0 #55 July 13, 2005 Time crunch bump.I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Douva 0 #56 July 13, 2005 Anyone who doesn't think there is a social aspect to skysurfing obviously doesn't have a L.A.S.T. number. I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jmpwme 0 #57 July 13, 2005 Ron - happy to hear you think that is a good reason. It may be the only good reason as you mention, but it alone has enough strength to keep it at Nationals until IPC drops it. Same discussion as Women's 4-way. US generally opposes the classification, but we sanction a team because IPC has it as an event. Its the only argument we need. If there is ever another Mondial as in Gap, 2003, the US might well need the skysurf points to bring home the overall award. The economic issue is a bunch of nonsense. Medals are covered by entry fees and at no cost to USPA assuming there at least 3 teams. Bump of the fees for skysurf if this is an issue. FYI - there is already a rule in place which says that number of medals awarded is one less than number of teams. So, its not just show up and medal. If there are 3 teams, only gold and silver awarded. This happen to us (Boardwalk) in Lake Wales when we had to withdraw/take zeros due to injury in round 1. Also, Judges are already at Nationals for other AE events. To require a separate meet to choose the Skysurf World Meet rep would be silly and at much greater cost than using nationals as the venue - not to mention the issues surrounding how USPA sanctions the winner of this new meet. Given USPA's big brother tendencies, Nationals is clearly the way to go. Also, Ron - go easy on the skysurf vidiots, I'm one of them. Number aside, you should count video for both events. A team is a team whether it be 5,9,10, 17 or 2. Said my peace. I'm done now. Steve. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ltdiver 3 #58 July 14, 2005 Quotein the last few Nationals, 10-way RW had the third largest number of participants. Thanks to Roger and SDC... ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Douva 0 #59 July 14, 2005 The USPA board of directors convenes tomorrow, so anyone who still wants to write the board on skysurfing's behalf really needs to get their emails sent today. THANK YOU!I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freekfly 0 #60 July 14, 2005 Ok....not sure where to begin. Let's start by saying when I was the 100 jump wonder in Rhode Island and the first 2 X-Games were coming to Providence / Newport I was a kid in a candy store. After hanging out at the venue watching these *stars* of skydiving fly around, I ended up driving half of em around and hanging out in a bar in Newport after the finals and sat with all 10 or so teams and watched them rag on eachother as we all watched the big screen on prime time ESPN. Very cool experience....one I will never forget..... But we have to look at why did ESPN loose interest? Where did the SSI Pro Tour go? They didn't go away because everyone was jumping up and down supporting them..... Fast forward to last year. 2004.... I was the US Parachute Team Manager for Artistic Events. This meant that it was my responsibility to line up a team and get them down to Brazil for the World competition. Fine...no problem. There were 3 teams that competed in the previous US Nationals so it shouldn't be a problem to get at LEAST 1. Well.....I was wrong. Snyder/Gasson sited lack of interested because the USPA wouldn't support them financially. They would like to go....but were fed up with the lack of support (I'm paraphrasing here....there was more too it...but that was the main point) Johnson/Miller also declined.....Hey..Brazil is not a cheap place to get to. However Larry Heltzer was all about going. So here was my skysurf team for the US. Ok....we got one....I can take it. Turns out Larry's teammate at Nationals wasn't his full time teammate...(replaced at the '03 nationals due to an injury so an alternate filmed) so I started jumping through hoops to find a way to swap out a camera flier.....after pushing and pushing and going head to head with Larry Bagley and others we got it approved. We won the fight. Then less than a month prior we find out his teammate can't go because of work. Again we start searching for alternates including myself.....but it fell apart and none of it worked out. End of the story....there was NO representation from the US at the 2004 World competition for skysurfing. We tried...... we tried hard. Larry and his team after pushing so hard couldn't make the final commitment. The reason I'm telling you all this story is that skysurfing, even prior to this fiasco was already on the chopping block. By having the lack of commitment from the skysurfing community at a world level mind you.....the USPA comp committee basically has had enough. And after jumping through all of the hoops that we did.....submitting waivers and exceptions to help them make it happen......they dropped the ball and never went. Larry....I like ya and all.....but please correct me if I'm wrong. Also.....let's look at the last few years of World comps.... 2004....No US teams present 2003....2 US teams present 2002....1 US team present This is not exactly a strong showing for the US. With all of this said......disciplines come and go. Freeflying (thought once to be a fad) was added to the US Nationals a few years ago and has taken off. This year they are adding a pilot 2 way CRW.....and it will be proposed at the meeting in the next few days that VRW4Way be proposed and brought on as another pilot discipline, just like 2 way CRW. My point to this is that if there is an interest in the community....and people start their own competition and there is support for it....then the USPA will listen and hear the skydivers and acknowledge them by adding that discipline at least as a pilot. When was the last skysurf competition outside of the nationals and world level? 4 way has the NSL and regional versions.....and to someone elses point.....why have a competition with 4 people for 3 places. Like they said...that's not a competition...that's an exhibition. I vote scratch Skysurfing from the Nationals. However, at the same time I wish you the best of luck lighting that fire under peoples asses and getting them out their on a board. If you do....and people start showing up with boards again and little competitions start to sprout up.....guess what.....the community and the USPA will recognize that and will support that discipline to let it make a come back. But I gotta be honest with you...right now.....skysurfing is FAR from making a come back. Sacrifice it on the chopping block and we, as a community, will welcome it back if the interest is there down the road. Does that make sense? Hopefully at least one person understands where I'm coming from. -Brian___________________________ www.brianbuckland.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mailin 0 #61 July 14, 2005 Hi Brian, I understand where you're coming from - very valid points, but you bring up one in particular here worth highlighting: QuoteSnyder/Gasson sited lack of interested because the USPA wouldn't support them financially. They would like to go....but were fed up with the lack of support This is what I highligted in my correspondance with the members of the competition committee. I don't have much expereince with the USPA at all - so please correct me if I'm wrong. But I don't see them trying anything to fix this problem. When was the last time you saw good mention of skysurfing in their magazine? I went back the last 7 issues and didn't see one photo or mention ANYWHERE. Those that participate in it currently also have some work to do - they should be more proactive. Get some camps up for training people - advertise them! Get out there and show people what your doing. Show pictures, get the word out! When you start showing more interest in yourself then others will to. I don't want to see it go -yet. I want to see an honest to god attempt at ressurecting it before its killed. Seriously, I went to those same XGames as Brian - its what hooked me too. I want to try it, but if it leaves from competition then the talent that teaches it will to, and thats a big loss to the community. JenArianna Frances Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freekfly 0 #62 July 14, 2005 Actually....I guess what I meant when I said support was monetary. There is a US team fund that helps competitors out a little. Right now it only helps the 1st place teams, but at least it's something. And as for the USPA doing something more about support.....they are trying. This past year compeitors got more than they ever had from previous years. Hopefully that will continue. It's tough to compare....but if you look at France....their lead teams submit budget for a years worth of training. The US is far...far from that. Also....as for not seeing pictures in Parachutist......or Skydiving for that matter. The editors print what people submit....obviously filtered a bit, but they also shoot for what is popular and what people are actually doing in the sport. What is the next new thing? That sells magazines. As for you.....don't worry....when you're ready to put on a board.....there will be someone there who will help ya out. -b___________________________ www.brianbuckland.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jmpwme 0 #63 July 14, 2005 Brian - Please make it clear why Johnson/Miller declined. Following a landing accident at the 2003 World Championships, which we attended, Kathee had neck surgery that forced her retirement from the sport. If anybody wants the facts behind that accident email me, suffice it to say, it was the result of trying to be a good competitor in a high profile meet. The extent of this injury became apparent at the 2003 Natinoals in round one where she became temporarily paralyzed from the chest down on her first trick out the door. If we could have gone, we would have gone, and trust me, we wanted to go more than anything. The hardest thing either of us has done in this sport was decline the invitation to brazil. Post retirement, we have continued to support the event as best as possible, as have craig and tanya. Also, lets not use stats to shade the issues. At the 2003 world championships, there was 1 freefly team, 2 skysurf teams, and ZERO freestyle from the US, yet, I don't hear any crys to eliminate those for lack of support. I know, its not apples and apples, but these remain important facts. Brian - I understand your viewpoint and we all recognize how hard you worked as team manager in Brazil - it was much appreciated as was Kevin's work in 2003, but please put all of the facts on the table. Steve. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jmpwme 0 #64 July 14, 2005 Most recent high profile skysurf picture was parachutist cover in Sept. or Oct. 2003. Great shot, but I'm biased. As to the funds issue - First womens and First men's teams are entitled to their fair share of USPA Team Trust fund money. Keebe's issues that year went well beyond those cited above, but those are best explained by Keith. FYI - last I heard, he was on the East Coast. ANother good coach. Steve Boardwalk. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Douva 0 #65 July 14, 2005 Let me just start by saying that ESPN’s decision to drop skysurfing didn’t have anything to do with skysurfing’s support from the skydiving community--ESPN dropped skysurfing because you can’t market skydiving gear to fourteen-year-old boys. And before you start spouting that “lack of commitment from the skysurfing community” garbage, maybe you’d better step back and look at the differences between skysurfing teams and teams in other disciplines. Look at the number of RW teams with corporate or drop zone sponsorship. There isn’t a single U.S. skysurfing team with full sponsorship. When Arizona Airspeed and the Golden Knights qualify for Worlds, the team members aren’t expected to write personal checks for their airfare, lodging, and entry fees. Us “uncommitted” skysurfers have jobs and lives that don’t revolve around skydiving. We’re doing the best we can, and we earnestly want to be competitive at an international level, but we’re not made of money, and we can’t tell the parts of our lives that earn the income to “f**k off” every time we want to compete in a world event. I’m sorry you had a bad experience trying to get a U.S. skysurfing team to the 2004 World Meet, but I think it’s shortsighted to assume that incident indicates a lack of commitment from the skysurfing community. EDITED TO ADD: Just so that it's clear, I don't want anyone to think I'm knocking the Knights or Airspeed or any of the RW teams. They've earned their success, and I have a great deal of respect for them. I just want people to recognize that one of the reasons RW makes a better showing than AE at Worlds each year is that RW's long track record earns it a lot of financial backing. Skysurfing doesn't have that luxury.I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Douva 0 #66 July 14, 2005 QuoteAlso....as for not seeing pictures in Parachutist......or Skydiving for that matter. The editors print what people submit....obviously filtered a bit, but they also shoot for what is popular and what people are actually doing in the sport. What is the next new thing? That sells magazines. I'm confused--Are you saying that aren't printing skysurfing photos because nobody is submitting skysurfing photos, or are they not submitting skysurfing photos because it's not new and trendy? As for selling magazines, when was the last time anybody saw Parachutist at a news stand?I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freekfly 0 #67 July 14, 2005 Sorry Steve....I didn't mention the reason for declining because I honestly couldn't remember. In fact I wasn't sure if was told that was the reason or just heard it later. Either way it sucks when people get hurt and can't attend. Just ask Alchemy this past year in Brazil. And true.....#'s aren't always the best way to judge. And yes....it was VERY frustrating working hard to make rules that didn't exist, work within and over the the USPA's infrastructure that they've outline.....and then all for not. So yeah...you could say that I was a little jaded. But at the same point.....I just don't see the people that I used to see....I don't see pictures in magazines because people aren't submitting the because people aren't taking them. It is a dying art form. Years ago there was ALWAYS a skysurfer leaving the plane first at whatever dz I went to....I haven't seen one at any dz in a few years now....(with the exception of Brazil)....and that says a lot.... -b___________________________ www.brianbuckland.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freekfly 0 #68 July 14, 2005 QuoteAnd before you start spouting that “lack of commitment from the skysurfing community” garbage, maybe you’d better step back and look at the differences between skysurfing teams and teams in other disciplines. You know.....I appologize....I didn't word that correctly. You are 100% correct in saying that there is TONS of support in the skysurfing community. There is.....just ask every skysurfer you know. Next time you're down at your local DZ as your local skysurfer......go ahead....ask em...... I think THAT was my point......most people reading this CAN'T ask them because they don't exist......there isn't a sizable skysurfing community that can lend that support. Sure I can raddle off a list of skysurfers....but how many of them are actively training as a team and are promoting their discipline? There are a few I will give you that....but they are NOT what they used to be. Skysurfing is NOT the next up and coming big thing......I don't think that is a point that can be argued.___________________________ www.brianbuckland.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freekfly 0 #69 July 14, 2005 Photos have to be submitted to be printed. Editors want to print interesting and appealing photos that will keep the reader coming back....i.e. "selling magazines"....I'm not an idoit....I realize a subscription comes with membership.....duh......but it's just a figure of speech..... And as for your questions....my guess is both....they aren't printing them because interesting shots are not being submitted and at they same time they are NOT new and trendy. But hey.....if you can submit a cool kick ass skysurfing shot...more power to ya. They do exist...I've seen em before....just not in a long long time.....___________________________ www.brianbuckland.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Douva 0 #70 July 14, 2005 QuoteSkysurfing is NOT the next up and coming big thing......I don't think that is a point that can be argued. Neither is accuracy. You don't have to scrap something just because it isn't new and trendy.I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Douva 0 #71 July 14, 2005 Quote But hey.....if you can submit a cool kick ass skysurfing shot...more power to ya. They do exist...I've seen em before....just not in a long long time..... We'll see what we can do. I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites livendive 8 #72 July 14, 2005 QuoteNext time you're down at your local DZ as your local skysurfer......go ahead....ask em...... I think THAT was my point......most people reading this CAN'T ask them because they don't exist......there isn't a sizable skysurfing community I've had exactly one skysurfer on a load with me in the last 5 years. I remember it distinctly because I was surprized and said to him "Wow, people still do that?" Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jmpwme 0 #73 July 14, 2005 Not so sure about the "not submitting". I know Larry is out getting shots a lot at Elsinore. Not sure if Joel is submitting the shots or not. Joel submitted our shots in 2003 and we got the cover. That was nice!!! BUT - this thread digresses. Its about Nationals. Perhaps another thread should be started to discuss how to increase participation in the sport. Steve. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #74 July 14, 2005 QuoteLet me just start by saying that ESPN’s decision to drop skysurfing didn’t have anything to do with skysurfing’s support from the skydiving community--ESPN dropped skysurfing because you can’t market skydiving gear to fourteen-year-old boys. And before you start spouting that “lack of commitment from the skysurfing community” garbage, maybe you’d better step back and look at the differences between skysurfing teams and teams in other disciplines. Look at the number of RW teams with corporate or drop zone sponsorship. There isn’t a single U.S. skysurfing team with full sponsorship. When Arizona Airspeed and the Golden Knights qualify for Worlds, the team members aren’t expected to write personal checks for their airfare, lodging, and entry fees. Us “uncommitted” skysurfers have jobs and lives that don’t revolve around skydiving. We’re doing the best we can, and we earnestly want to be competitive at an international level, but we’re not made of money, and we can’t tell the parts of our lives that earn the income to “f**k off” every time we want to compete in a world event. I’m sorry you had a bad experience trying to get a U.S. skysurfing team to the 2004 World Meet, but I think it’s shortsighted to assume that incident indicates a lack of commitment from the skysurfing community. EDITED TO ADD: Just so that it's clear, I don't want anyone to think I'm knocking the Knights or Airspeed or any of the RW teams. They've earned their success, and I have a great deal of respect for them. I just want people to recognize that one of the reasons RW makes a better showing than AE at Worlds each year is that RW's long track record earns it a lot of financial backing. Skysurfing doesn't have that luxury. _______________________________________ Why, don't you look into sponsorship. I don't think, sponsors went looking for 4-way teams. You might have to get out there and 'beat the bushes'. Write letters to the big companies. Knock on some 'big' doors. The energy drink companies, for instance. You never know... you might get a nibble. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gjhdiver 0 #75 July 14, 2005 QuoteThank goodness not everyone agrees with you. It hurts nothing by keeping it. Jen We're talking about removing it as a competition event, not banning it from the sport. If people want to skysurf, they'll still do it, but to use the Nationals as argument that it serves to promote the discipline is clearly not correct, as nobody is showing up to compete. I'd go along with it's removal for now, and see where the sport goes with it. If it's really going to be a credible competition disciplne, then what Douva suggest has got to happen. That is, it has to be built up from the grass roots again, with coaches, seminars, and new neophpytes who will bring a new perspective and flavor to it. If that happens, then it might just become popular enough to qualify as a competetive event again. I travel all over the country and world organizing, and in the last 5 years, I have seen one skysurfer in a plane with me. It's dying as a discipline right now, and the the lack of competitors at the Nationals is a symptom of that, not it's cause. By all means, get the BOD to keep it in if you can, but what's left of the skysurf community better field a full ticket at the next Nationals or no amount of emailing will save it after that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 3 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. 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Douva 0 #55 July 13, 2005 Time crunch bump.I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Douva 0 #56 July 13, 2005 Anyone who doesn't think there is a social aspect to skysurfing obviously doesn't have a L.A.S.T. number. I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jmpwme 0 #57 July 13, 2005 Ron - happy to hear you think that is a good reason. It may be the only good reason as you mention, but it alone has enough strength to keep it at Nationals until IPC drops it. Same discussion as Women's 4-way. US generally opposes the classification, but we sanction a team because IPC has it as an event. Its the only argument we need. If there is ever another Mondial as in Gap, 2003, the US might well need the skysurf points to bring home the overall award. The economic issue is a bunch of nonsense. Medals are covered by entry fees and at no cost to USPA assuming there at least 3 teams. Bump of the fees for skysurf if this is an issue. FYI - there is already a rule in place which says that number of medals awarded is one less than number of teams. So, its not just show up and medal. If there are 3 teams, only gold and silver awarded. This happen to us (Boardwalk) in Lake Wales when we had to withdraw/take zeros due to injury in round 1. Also, Judges are already at Nationals for other AE events. To require a separate meet to choose the Skysurf World Meet rep would be silly and at much greater cost than using nationals as the venue - not to mention the issues surrounding how USPA sanctions the winner of this new meet. Given USPA's big brother tendencies, Nationals is clearly the way to go. Also, Ron - go easy on the skysurf vidiots, I'm one of them. Number aside, you should count video for both events. A team is a team whether it be 5,9,10, 17 or 2. Said my peace. I'm done now. Steve. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #58 July 14, 2005 Quotein the last few Nationals, 10-way RW had the third largest number of participants. Thanks to Roger and SDC... ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Douva 0 #59 July 14, 2005 The USPA board of directors convenes tomorrow, so anyone who still wants to write the board on skysurfing's behalf really needs to get their emails sent today. THANK YOU!I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freekfly 0 #60 July 14, 2005 Ok....not sure where to begin. Let's start by saying when I was the 100 jump wonder in Rhode Island and the first 2 X-Games were coming to Providence / Newport I was a kid in a candy store. After hanging out at the venue watching these *stars* of skydiving fly around, I ended up driving half of em around and hanging out in a bar in Newport after the finals and sat with all 10 or so teams and watched them rag on eachother as we all watched the big screen on prime time ESPN. Very cool experience....one I will never forget..... But we have to look at why did ESPN loose interest? Where did the SSI Pro Tour go? They didn't go away because everyone was jumping up and down supporting them..... Fast forward to last year. 2004.... I was the US Parachute Team Manager for Artistic Events. This meant that it was my responsibility to line up a team and get them down to Brazil for the World competition. Fine...no problem. There were 3 teams that competed in the previous US Nationals so it shouldn't be a problem to get at LEAST 1. Well.....I was wrong. Snyder/Gasson sited lack of interested because the USPA wouldn't support them financially. They would like to go....but were fed up with the lack of support (I'm paraphrasing here....there was more too it...but that was the main point) Johnson/Miller also declined.....Hey..Brazil is not a cheap place to get to. However Larry Heltzer was all about going. So here was my skysurf team for the US. Ok....we got one....I can take it. Turns out Larry's teammate at Nationals wasn't his full time teammate...(replaced at the '03 nationals due to an injury so an alternate filmed) so I started jumping through hoops to find a way to swap out a camera flier.....after pushing and pushing and going head to head with Larry Bagley and others we got it approved. We won the fight. Then less than a month prior we find out his teammate can't go because of work. Again we start searching for alternates including myself.....but it fell apart and none of it worked out. End of the story....there was NO representation from the US at the 2004 World competition for skysurfing. We tried...... we tried hard. Larry and his team after pushing so hard couldn't make the final commitment. The reason I'm telling you all this story is that skysurfing, even prior to this fiasco was already on the chopping block. By having the lack of commitment from the skysurfing community at a world level mind you.....the USPA comp committee basically has had enough. And after jumping through all of the hoops that we did.....submitting waivers and exceptions to help them make it happen......they dropped the ball and never went. Larry....I like ya and all.....but please correct me if I'm wrong. Also.....let's look at the last few years of World comps.... 2004....No US teams present 2003....2 US teams present 2002....1 US team present This is not exactly a strong showing for the US. With all of this said......disciplines come and go. Freeflying (thought once to be a fad) was added to the US Nationals a few years ago and has taken off. This year they are adding a pilot 2 way CRW.....and it will be proposed at the meeting in the next few days that VRW4Way be proposed and brought on as another pilot discipline, just like 2 way CRW. My point to this is that if there is an interest in the community....and people start their own competition and there is support for it....then the USPA will listen and hear the skydivers and acknowledge them by adding that discipline at least as a pilot. When was the last skysurf competition outside of the nationals and world level? 4 way has the NSL and regional versions.....and to someone elses point.....why have a competition with 4 people for 3 places. Like they said...that's not a competition...that's an exhibition. I vote scratch Skysurfing from the Nationals. However, at the same time I wish you the best of luck lighting that fire under peoples asses and getting them out their on a board. If you do....and people start showing up with boards again and little competitions start to sprout up.....guess what.....the community and the USPA will recognize that and will support that discipline to let it make a come back. But I gotta be honest with you...right now.....skysurfing is FAR from making a come back. Sacrifice it on the chopping block and we, as a community, will welcome it back if the interest is there down the road. Does that make sense? Hopefully at least one person understands where I'm coming from. -Brian___________________________ www.brianbuckland.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mailin 0 #61 July 14, 2005 Hi Brian, I understand where you're coming from - very valid points, but you bring up one in particular here worth highlighting: QuoteSnyder/Gasson sited lack of interested because the USPA wouldn't support them financially. They would like to go....but were fed up with the lack of support This is what I highligted in my correspondance with the members of the competition committee. I don't have much expereince with the USPA at all - so please correct me if I'm wrong. But I don't see them trying anything to fix this problem. When was the last time you saw good mention of skysurfing in their magazine? I went back the last 7 issues and didn't see one photo or mention ANYWHERE. Those that participate in it currently also have some work to do - they should be more proactive. Get some camps up for training people - advertise them! Get out there and show people what your doing. Show pictures, get the word out! When you start showing more interest in yourself then others will to. I don't want to see it go -yet. I want to see an honest to god attempt at ressurecting it before its killed. Seriously, I went to those same XGames as Brian - its what hooked me too. I want to try it, but if it leaves from competition then the talent that teaches it will to, and thats a big loss to the community. JenArianna Frances Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freekfly 0 #62 July 14, 2005 Actually....I guess what I meant when I said support was monetary. There is a US team fund that helps competitors out a little. Right now it only helps the 1st place teams, but at least it's something. And as for the USPA doing something more about support.....they are trying. This past year compeitors got more than they ever had from previous years. Hopefully that will continue. It's tough to compare....but if you look at France....their lead teams submit budget for a years worth of training. The US is far...far from that. Also....as for not seeing pictures in Parachutist......or Skydiving for that matter. The editors print what people submit....obviously filtered a bit, but they also shoot for what is popular and what people are actually doing in the sport. What is the next new thing? That sells magazines. As for you.....don't worry....when you're ready to put on a board.....there will be someone there who will help ya out. -b___________________________ www.brianbuckland.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jmpwme 0 #63 July 14, 2005 Brian - Please make it clear why Johnson/Miller declined. Following a landing accident at the 2003 World Championships, which we attended, Kathee had neck surgery that forced her retirement from the sport. If anybody wants the facts behind that accident email me, suffice it to say, it was the result of trying to be a good competitor in a high profile meet. The extent of this injury became apparent at the 2003 Natinoals in round one where she became temporarily paralyzed from the chest down on her first trick out the door. If we could have gone, we would have gone, and trust me, we wanted to go more than anything. The hardest thing either of us has done in this sport was decline the invitation to brazil. Post retirement, we have continued to support the event as best as possible, as have craig and tanya. Also, lets not use stats to shade the issues. At the 2003 world championships, there was 1 freefly team, 2 skysurf teams, and ZERO freestyle from the US, yet, I don't hear any crys to eliminate those for lack of support. I know, its not apples and apples, but these remain important facts. Brian - I understand your viewpoint and we all recognize how hard you worked as team manager in Brazil - it was much appreciated as was Kevin's work in 2003, but please put all of the facts on the table. Steve. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jmpwme 0 #64 July 14, 2005 Most recent high profile skysurf picture was parachutist cover in Sept. or Oct. 2003. Great shot, but I'm biased. As to the funds issue - First womens and First men's teams are entitled to their fair share of USPA Team Trust fund money. Keebe's issues that year went well beyond those cited above, but those are best explained by Keith. FYI - last I heard, he was on the East Coast. ANother good coach. Steve Boardwalk. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Douva 0 #65 July 14, 2005 Let me just start by saying that ESPN’s decision to drop skysurfing didn’t have anything to do with skysurfing’s support from the skydiving community--ESPN dropped skysurfing because you can’t market skydiving gear to fourteen-year-old boys. And before you start spouting that “lack of commitment from the skysurfing community” garbage, maybe you’d better step back and look at the differences between skysurfing teams and teams in other disciplines. Look at the number of RW teams with corporate or drop zone sponsorship. There isn’t a single U.S. skysurfing team with full sponsorship. When Arizona Airspeed and the Golden Knights qualify for Worlds, the team members aren’t expected to write personal checks for their airfare, lodging, and entry fees. Us “uncommitted” skysurfers have jobs and lives that don’t revolve around skydiving. We’re doing the best we can, and we earnestly want to be competitive at an international level, but we’re not made of money, and we can’t tell the parts of our lives that earn the income to “f**k off” every time we want to compete in a world event. I’m sorry you had a bad experience trying to get a U.S. skysurfing team to the 2004 World Meet, but I think it’s shortsighted to assume that incident indicates a lack of commitment from the skysurfing community. EDITED TO ADD: Just so that it's clear, I don't want anyone to think I'm knocking the Knights or Airspeed or any of the RW teams. They've earned their success, and I have a great deal of respect for them. I just want people to recognize that one of the reasons RW makes a better showing than AE at Worlds each year is that RW's long track record earns it a lot of financial backing. Skysurfing doesn't have that luxury.I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Douva 0 #66 July 14, 2005 QuoteAlso....as for not seeing pictures in Parachutist......or Skydiving for that matter. The editors print what people submit....obviously filtered a bit, but they also shoot for what is popular and what people are actually doing in the sport. What is the next new thing? That sells magazines. I'm confused--Are you saying that aren't printing skysurfing photos because nobody is submitting skysurfing photos, or are they not submitting skysurfing photos because it's not new and trendy? As for selling magazines, when was the last time anybody saw Parachutist at a news stand?I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freekfly 0 #67 July 14, 2005 Sorry Steve....I didn't mention the reason for declining because I honestly couldn't remember. In fact I wasn't sure if was told that was the reason or just heard it later. Either way it sucks when people get hurt and can't attend. Just ask Alchemy this past year in Brazil. And true.....#'s aren't always the best way to judge. And yes....it was VERY frustrating working hard to make rules that didn't exist, work within and over the the USPA's infrastructure that they've outline.....and then all for not. So yeah...you could say that I was a little jaded. But at the same point.....I just don't see the people that I used to see....I don't see pictures in magazines because people aren't submitting the because people aren't taking them. It is a dying art form. Years ago there was ALWAYS a skysurfer leaving the plane first at whatever dz I went to....I haven't seen one at any dz in a few years now....(with the exception of Brazil)....and that says a lot.... -b___________________________ www.brianbuckland.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freekfly 0 #68 July 14, 2005 QuoteAnd before you start spouting that “lack of commitment from the skysurfing community” garbage, maybe you’d better step back and look at the differences between skysurfing teams and teams in other disciplines. You know.....I appologize....I didn't word that correctly. You are 100% correct in saying that there is TONS of support in the skysurfing community. There is.....just ask every skysurfer you know. Next time you're down at your local DZ as your local skysurfer......go ahead....ask em...... I think THAT was my point......most people reading this CAN'T ask them because they don't exist......there isn't a sizable skysurfing community that can lend that support. Sure I can raddle off a list of skysurfers....but how many of them are actively training as a team and are promoting their discipline? There are a few I will give you that....but they are NOT what they used to be. Skysurfing is NOT the next up and coming big thing......I don't think that is a point that can be argued.___________________________ www.brianbuckland.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freekfly 0 #69 July 14, 2005 Photos have to be submitted to be printed. Editors want to print interesting and appealing photos that will keep the reader coming back....i.e. "selling magazines"....I'm not an idoit....I realize a subscription comes with membership.....duh......but it's just a figure of speech..... And as for your questions....my guess is both....they aren't printing them because interesting shots are not being submitted and at they same time they are NOT new and trendy. But hey.....if you can submit a cool kick ass skysurfing shot...more power to ya. They do exist...I've seen em before....just not in a long long time.....___________________________ www.brianbuckland.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Douva 0 #70 July 14, 2005 QuoteSkysurfing is NOT the next up and coming big thing......I don't think that is a point that can be argued. Neither is accuracy. You don't have to scrap something just because it isn't new and trendy.I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Douva 0 #71 July 14, 2005 Quote But hey.....if you can submit a cool kick ass skysurfing shot...more power to ya. They do exist...I've seen em before....just not in a long long time..... We'll see what we can do. I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #72 July 14, 2005 QuoteNext time you're down at your local DZ as your local skysurfer......go ahead....ask em...... I think THAT was my point......most people reading this CAN'T ask them because they don't exist......there isn't a sizable skysurfing community I've had exactly one skysurfer on a load with me in the last 5 years. I remember it distinctly because I was surprized and said to him "Wow, people still do that?" Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jmpwme 0 #73 July 14, 2005 Not so sure about the "not submitting". I know Larry is out getting shots a lot at Elsinore. Not sure if Joel is submitting the shots or not. Joel submitted our shots in 2003 and we got the cover. That was nice!!! BUT - this thread digresses. Its about Nationals. Perhaps another thread should be started to discuss how to increase participation in the sport. Steve. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #74 July 14, 2005 QuoteLet me just start by saying that ESPN’s decision to drop skysurfing didn’t have anything to do with skysurfing’s support from the skydiving community--ESPN dropped skysurfing because you can’t market skydiving gear to fourteen-year-old boys. And before you start spouting that “lack of commitment from the skysurfing community” garbage, maybe you’d better step back and look at the differences between skysurfing teams and teams in other disciplines. Look at the number of RW teams with corporate or drop zone sponsorship. There isn’t a single U.S. skysurfing team with full sponsorship. When Arizona Airspeed and the Golden Knights qualify for Worlds, the team members aren’t expected to write personal checks for their airfare, lodging, and entry fees. Us “uncommitted” skysurfers have jobs and lives that don’t revolve around skydiving. We’re doing the best we can, and we earnestly want to be competitive at an international level, but we’re not made of money, and we can’t tell the parts of our lives that earn the income to “f**k off” every time we want to compete in a world event. I’m sorry you had a bad experience trying to get a U.S. skysurfing team to the 2004 World Meet, but I think it’s shortsighted to assume that incident indicates a lack of commitment from the skysurfing community. EDITED TO ADD: Just so that it's clear, I don't want anyone to think I'm knocking the Knights or Airspeed or any of the RW teams. They've earned their success, and I have a great deal of respect for them. I just want people to recognize that one of the reasons RW makes a better showing than AE at Worlds each year is that RW's long track record earns it a lot of financial backing. Skysurfing doesn't have that luxury. _______________________________________ Why, don't you look into sponsorship. I don't think, sponsors went looking for 4-way teams. You might have to get out there and 'beat the bushes'. Write letters to the big companies. Knock on some 'big' doors. The energy drink companies, for instance. You never know... you might get a nibble. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gjhdiver 0 #75 July 14, 2005 QuoteThank goodness not everyone agrees with you. It hurts nothing by keeping it. Jen We're talking about removing it as a competition event, not banning it from the sport. If people want to skysurf, they'll still do it, but to use the Nationals as argument that it serves to promote the discipline is clearly not correct, as nobody is showing up to compete. I'd go along with it's removal for now, and see where the sport goes with it. If it's really going to be a credible competition disciplne, then what Douva suggest has got to happen. That is, it has to be built up from the grass roots again, with coaches, seminars, and new neophpytes who will bring a new perspective and flavor to it. If that happens, then it might just become popular enough to qualify as a competetive event again. I travel all over the country and world organizing, and in the last 5 years, I have seen one skysurfer in a plane with me. It's dying as a discipline right now, and the the lack of competitors at the Nationals is a symptom of that, not it's cause. By all means, get the BOD to keep it in if you can, but what's left of the skysurf community better field a full ticket at the next Nationals or no amount of emailing will save it after that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
