andyturner 0 #1 June 12, 2008 Hi, I'm in the process of buying used kit and would like as much info as possible on used AADs & Reserves. Is there a shelf life on either? What do you look for? Should there be documentation? thanks, regards & Blue Skies Andy PS. I'm also after a container for a 190 CF STORM. 200lb & 5'10 link is... http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/detail_page.cgi?ID=63998;d=1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bertt 0 #2 June 13, 2008 There is a shelf life on AAD's. Cypress live 12 years; Vigil, 20 years. Check their websites for details. There should be doc about service performed - 4 year checks, batteries, etc. Some riggers won't pack a reserve more than 20 years old. There has been some discussion about this on these forums. Other than that, the condition of the reserve determines whether it is serviceable. Have it checked by a rigger before you purchase it.You don't have to outrun the bear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andyturner 0 #3 June 13, 2008 Hi Bertt, thanks for that. These Vigels seem a bit good to be true. Thay are cheaper than Cyprus and last longer! Why? Are they ok? Has anyone seen any problems whith them? Thanks & regards Andy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bertt 0 #4 June 13, 2008 There have been a few problems with Cypress and Vigil. I think the British and French parachute associations have put out bulletins concerning older Vigils. Your local rigger should have details. In the long run, there is not really an advantage to buying an older AAD. Because their lifespan is limited to a certain number of years, your cost per year will be about the same whether you get a new one and keep it for many years, or get a used one and replace it sooner. The difference between buying a new AAD or a used one is more of a cash flow issue than a total cost issue. I really encourage you to talk to your local riggers about these issues before making a purchase.You don't have to outrun the bear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UDSkyJunkie 0 #5 June 15, 2008 Cypress and Vigil are both good... IMO Cypres is better; as an engineer I'll never believe you can reliably last 20 years without scheduled maintenance or at least an inspection. The increased cost is worth it to me. If you buy used, make sure you know the age and the status of batteries and the 4/8 year checks on a cypress... batteries are about $80 and checks are $150ish. If it's going to need either in the next year the price should be adjusted accordingly. Reserves your best bet is to get it inspected by a good rigger and/or buy it from somebody you know or through a reliable dealer. The PD reserve has boxes on the warning label that are marked to indicate how many times it has been packed and deployed. No official shelf life, but as said some riggers won't pack past 20 years, and PD requires a porosity test after 40 packjobs or 25 deployments (from what I've heard, most of these tests do not ground the reserve... and 40 packjobs is going to take 13 years if it's packed every 90 days). Documentation beyond what's printed on the canopy (DOM, and packs/deployments if it's PD) is unlikley. AAD's will have the last check and battery change documented on the unit, along with DOM."Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
erdnarob 1 #6 June 17, 2008 <<< as an engineer I'll never believe you can reliably last 20 years without scheduled maintenance or at least an inspection >>> Well, why not if the device is self testing like the VIGIL: showing on the display, CUT OK, BATT OK, and CTRL OK and switch off if any of the 3 tests fails. You forget that any time you want, you can send back a Vigil for testing at a convenient time for you not at the time the manufacturer tells you to do so like the Cypres. On the other hand, look at a Cypres II and a Vigil II side by side. There is no comparison. The first is a plastic box with wiring looking like the ones used for electronic toys and which are easily broken and the second one made of sturdy cast aluminum with Kevlar reinforced wires. On the other hand Vigil II is not using a capacitance like the Cypres and therefore is faster to fire when conditions are met to do so (less than 2 millisecond). Vigil is using a Pulse Plus device which stays charged all the time while Cypres is using a standard capacitor which is charged only when conditions for firing are met. That difference also makes Vigil II better at energy saving than the Cypres with the consequence the batteries last longer. In we take in account that the Vigil II (like the Vigil I) has the 3 modes (PRO, STUDENT AND TANDEM) you can set up yourself at the SETUP seen on the display, mode which stays on the display when the device is switched on) and provide you the possibility to download the 16 last minutes on your computer and give you access to the data from your last jump by clicking on INFO on the display, well, it's obvious that the Vigil has several length of advance with respect to the Cypres.Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andyturner 0 #7 June 17, 2008 Endnarob, as an Engineer myself, I respect the way you defend the VIGIL. I was trying to provoke a responce like this because I'm too lazy to do my own research! I agree, if it self tests on start up each time and that self test is tested at design then in theory each bootup of the unit should validate the unit. Obviousley both units do this, the real question is how good was the test of the self test? I'll take your word on robustness as I have not handled either device. In terms of energy management, I get the jist of it but please can you expand or better still provide me with references. 3 modes. I couldnt understand why Cyprus don't have 1 s/w program that lets you select PRO, STUDENT or TANDEM. It makes sense for the end user, manufacture, logistics & sales point of view. Agreed the data logging facility is also a big + ! best regards Andy PS. I'd be very interested in your data sources. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UDSkyJunkie 0 #8 June 17, 2008 QuoteWell, why not if the device is self testing like the VIGIL: showing on the display, CUT OK, BATT OK, and CTRL OK and switch off if any of the 3 tests fails. Quote They are both self-testing. I believe that self-tests can fail. Also, while the self-test gives you an indication that the unit is working, it does not indicate if failure is imminent... inspection will find imminent failures and fix them, making it less likley that your self-test will detect a failure. QuoteYou forget that any time you want, you can send back a Vigil for testing at a convenient time for you not at the time the manufacturer tells you to do so like the Cypres. I do not forget, I am well aware you can send a vigil for inspection. However, if one chooses to do this, where is the advantage? It will still be inconvienient, and you will still have to pay for it. Furthermore, how many people do you think will actually get them inspected? Very, very few. Therefore, most units will not be inspected, and just as importantly, Vigil will be less likley to find errors and/or manufacturing problems in a timley manner. I am defining "a timley manner" as "before it fails"... Airtec has quietly made many small adjustments to software and hardware due to data from returned units. Vigil will not have this opportunity, and is more likley to find their flaws when somebody's unit fails or breaks. Vigil is also newer, and therefore is more likley to have unknown problems. Some bugs have already been worked out, and the vigil is a better product for it. Airtec went through similar growing pains, but they have had relatively fewer issues in the recent past. The product maturity is a comfort to me. QuoteOn the other hand, look at a Cypres II and a Vigil II side by side. There is no comparison. The first is a plastic box with wiring looking like the ones used for electronic toys and which are easily broken and the second one made of sturdy cast aluminum with Kevlar reinforced wires. Agreed, the vigil is more robustly constructed... there is no rational argument against that. I would very much like Airtec to take a lesson from that. It should be noted however, that if these wires were truly "easily broken", they would be broken frequently, yes? I'm sure it has happened, but I haven't yet known anyone who has had their cypres wires break... have you? (that is not intended as a snide remark, if you have, I'd like the info). The wires are a cypres flaw... I accept that flaw due to my belief that it is otherwise superior. QuoteVigil is using a Pulse Plus device which stays charged all the time while Cypres is using a standard capacitor which is charged only when conditions for firing are met. That difference also makes Vigil II better at energy saving than the Cypres with the consequence the batteries last longer. I think it has been demonstrated through hundreds of saves that the cypress firing speed is sufficient. The design may be easier on energy, however both units require new batteries after 4 years, so the argument is a moot point. Anecdotally, I can tell you that someone I know very well forgot to change the batteries on a cypres I (the old 2-year, 500 jump max batteries). It took 3 1/2 years and approximately 750 jumps before said batteries died... the cypress 2 is even better, so I am not worried about the battery life. QuoteIn we take in account that the Vigil II (like the Vigil I) has the 3 modes (PRO, STUDENT AND TANDEM) you can set up yourself at the SETUP seen on the display, mode which stays on the display when the device is switched on) and provide you the possibility to download the 16 last minutes on your computer and give you access to the data from your last jump by clicking on INFO on the display, well, it's obvious that the Vigil has several length of advance with respect to the Cypres. The student/tandem/pro mode is a great feature for schools, and prettymuch irrelevant for up-jumpers. Unless you're going to switch your vigil from your personal rig to your personal tandem rig, you'll never use it. Or if you decide to be a student again. What data does the vigil provide (honest question)? I'm guessing nothing you can't get from an audible, assuming you have an interest in such things... personally, I don't. Final note: you might notice that I said BOTH ARE GOOD and that IN MY OPINION the cypress is better. The above details why I think it's better, nothing more."Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DrewEckhardt 0 #9 June 17, 2008 QuoteHi, I'm in the process of buying used kit and would like as much info as possible on used AADs & Reserves. Is there a shelf life on either? What do you look for? I'd look for a Cypres. Presumably during its 4 year inspection they test it while freezing it, cooking it, and sending it for chamber rides so they'll catch faults which don't show up in a simple self-test. I'd look to pay no more than $12/month of life remaining. That's what a new Cypres-2 costs (the higher initial purchase price is offset by no battery replacements at $85/pop) and what a Cypres-1 purchased for under $900 cost when the dollar was strong plus its 5 $85 battery replacements. Start with 147 months and subtract its current age. Ex: 147 - 10 years 3 months = 24 months left. Multiply by 12 = $288. Add the $80 tade-in. $368. Subtract your out of pocket battery cost (potentially $85) and inspection costs ($200 after you've shipped in both directions). A timed out Cypres with less than 30 months on it pretty much only has its trade-in value. I don't think I'll bother getting the 8-year on my 1998 Cypres and I've seen slightly older units offered free to new jumpers if they'll let it be sent in for service on their dime. Cypresses nearing their 8 year inspection are also usually not a good value because they'll require the $200 4-year inspection and then the $200 8-year inspection for not much over 4 years of life. They may even be worthless to you as a buyer wanting an AAD tomorrow and not in 3 months when just a 8 year will suffice. I'd also look for a PD reserve especially if I planned on doing any freeflying because of the reinforcing. They've always had span-wise reinforcing tapes across all the line attachments (I've seen an over-speed reserve deployment from an unconscious Cypres fire split a reserve into 2 and 5 cell pieces held together by the single tape at the tail; that was not pretty), land nice (you may be landing on an asphalt parking lot), and have good quality control (I've never heard of a built-in turn). PDs are definitely better built than pre-2001 Tempos and Ravens before the R-max series. Smarts are allegedly nice too but I haven't crawled inside or demoed one. More wear occurs during the repack than use and PD requires theirs to be sent in for porosity testing after 40 repacks (or 25 uses) which would be about 13 years although lots of gear just sits on shelves (I haven't jumped any of my rigs since getting broken 9 months ago, and one hasn't been jumped or repacked for a couple years since I relocated to a more relaxed state where there was no way I needed to make back to back loads). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites andyturner 0 #10 June 17, 2008 A heated debate, GOOD! How abount an independant experiment? We collect some out of date Cyprus's & put new batteries in them. I know where we can get at least 3. We also find/buy an equivelent number of VIGELS of a similar age or older and do some real testing. I volenteer to Zero the things at 3000ft and then jump from 5000ft + if that helps? We make data recordings & write up our findings etc. Apart from battery life & life of pyrotechnic charge I can'nt see a problem with a unit serviving tens of years? regards Andy PS. I also know where we can get several VIGEL 1 units we can test. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DrewEckhardt 0 #11 June 17, 2008 Quote QuoteOn the other hand, look at a Cypres II and a Vigil II side by side. There is no comparison. The first is a plastic box with wiring looking like the ones used for electronic toys and which are easily broken and the second one made of sturdy cast aluminum with Kevlar reinforced wires. It should be noted however, that if these wires were truly "easily broken", they would be broken frequently, yes? I'm sure it has happened, but I haven't yet known anyone who has had their cypres wires break... have you? (that is not intended as a snide remark, if you have, I'd like the info). When the Cypres was still getting popular, people used to break the Cypres control unit wiring by standing their rigs on their yokes to pack the pilot chute. We learned that could get expensive and stopped. I know one rigger who managed to set the control unit on top of a hard tool while putting all his weight on the reserve container and had to buy the customer a new one but no other modern failures. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites UDSkyJunkie 0 #12 June 17, 2008 QuoteApart from battery life & life of pyrotechnic charge I can'nt see a problem with a unit serviving tens of years? Vibration and temperature change are the two most common failure modes for almost everything, and electronics are particularly vulnerable to both. You could have a huge argument over how much of either an AAD sees... it shouldn't see much vibe normally, although if you land on your butt a lot it's exposed enough that it might get a few whacks. Temp-wise it probably sees more than we think... not much temperature protection once the main is open and electronics heat up internally just from turning on. Tens of years? no doubt most would last that long. It's all about statistics and confidence... at my old aviation job certain critical parts had to have a failure rate less than 1 failure per billion flight hours or billion events, and were life-limited if after some amount of use we believed we got outside that condition. Assuming AAD mfr's use a similar logic, it's likley that they are 99.99% confident that a unit could last 30, 40, 50 years... but have decided that's not good enough. So, they picked 12 years or 20 years for reasons that they have not disclosed. Some say it's arbitrary, others that it's a money-grab, and others that it's based on specific data. The truth is probably a bit of all three."Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DrewEckhardt 0 #13 June 17, 2008 QuoteA heated debate, GOOD! How abount an independant experiment? We collect some out of date Cyprus's & put new batteries in them. I know where we can get at least 3. We also find/buy an equivelent number of VIGELS of a similar age or older and do some real testing. I'd rather some one run 20,000 8 year old vigils run through ovens, freezers, and altitude chambers with measurements to see how they're still working because that's most relevant to whether one's likely to kill me. Airtec should have done that with Cypresses by 2006 (21,700 had been sold by 1998). If your AAD doesn't fire and you die, it's not a big loss because you would have died anyways. If your AAD fires when it shouldn't, your deploying reserve can break the plane and kill everyone on it. If you're filming a tandem pair it can kill them. If some is docking on you in a vertical formation when it happens you can all die. A required maintenance cycle provides more opportunities to avoid misfires resulting from electronic components and solder joints which have not aged as they should have that electrically look OK at a comfortable temperature with no acceleration or pressure change. It's a good thing for your fellow jumpers. Quote Apart from battery life & life of pyrotechnic charge I can'nt see a problem with a unit serviving tens of years? Capacitors get leaky, electronics are damaged by static, vibrations break marginal solder joints, etc. The real time clock no longer works on my five year old laptop which has never been subjected to temperatures below 0 or 1000 5G shocks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites erdnarob 1 #14 June 18, 2008 You send your Vigil back for a check whenever you want like you decide when to do your car oil change or when to have the snow tires installed. Being a skydiver is being responsible for your own equipment, it's a question of survival. OTOH, I have discussed the reliability of the self-test with systems analysis engineers and they told me that a device like an AAD having a failure when the self test has been successful is not likely to happen provided the software is well designed. For sure Vigil is newer than Cypres but that means nothing. I have a Vector III with a Skyhook and riser cover with magnets and this is new but well tested and so far no manufacturer tops that rig. Strong cable are important when we know that a rig at opening shock is subject to forces going up to 2000 lbs (snatch force). Nothing is rigid in a rig, and the inside of the reserve has its share of stress like all parts of the rig. As a rigger I have sometimes to give a strong massage to the reserve container in order to better distribute the reserve canopy volume, another form of stress for the cables. Cypres is not protected from faulty pressure sensors and that was the case for the recent recall of 800 Cypres units. When I say the Vigil is faster than the Cypres because of its use of Pulse Plus device which stays charged and fire within 2 milliseconds when conditions of firing are met, we don't have to forget that time means loss of altitude at the rate of 174 feet a second. That can make the difference between being alive or dead just like the Skyhook deploys a reserve on 75 feet instead of 150+ feet for a pilot chute deployed reserve. There are 28 saves for the Vigil (seen on their Web site) with about 9000 units in services. Cypres has more saves but has also more units in service. You can download the last 16 minutes of the Vigil (provided you have the software and the interface). I believe for a DZ it's a very important feature when something questionable happens in the air. The download provides you with all the data of the jumps and better yet you can like a Protrack get graphs for altitude -time and speed-time of your jumps. In some case this feature could possibly become a way to defend yourself in case of a lawsuit as a DZO. Now for a DZ with rental, student and tandem rigs, isn't nice to manage when the rigs are Vigil equiped and you can withing few minutes remove a Vigil from a student rig and put it in a tandem rig by just changing the mode. The DZ using Vigil love it for that feature. I personnally sold my Vigil I which has now another life in a student rig. I have now a Vigil II used in the PRO mode but recently I lent it for a couple of weeks to a friend of mine who is still on student status and have a medical problem. I figured out he needed the Vigil II more than me. As soon as my friend got his Vigil II (one more week), I will get mine back and thanks to the three modes. For sure Vigil and Cypres are both good devices but Vigil i and II are more user friendly and are one generation ahead with respect to the Cypres. The Vigil II has a batteries set lasting for 2000 jumps and 7+ years, not 4 years. Cypres has a culture of secrecy. Look at their 4 or 8 years servive invoice and you will find no details about what they have checked, they will even not tell you that they have changed the cutter when the old one was still OK. Advanced Aerospace Designs the maker of the Vigil is way more open about their device. You ask them.Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #15 June 18, 2008 QuoteCypres has a culture of secrecy. Look at their 4 or 8 years servive invoice and you will find no details about what they have checked, they will even not tell you that they have changed the cutter when the old one was still OK. I have received a small booklet with my device returning from the 8 years inspection, there were rather detailed with what they have done. I can scan it if I can find it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites erdnarob 1 #16 June 18, 2008 Sorry I just forgot. I am on a technical and safety committee and yes, Cypres cables break and the best of all, they have generally to be returned to Germany at least until recently.Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites erdnarob 1 #17 June 18, 2008 That wasn't the case for a friend of mine who sent his Cypres 1 for the 8 years maintenance to SSK. No details on the invoice and a bill of almost 400$ including shipping, custom broker fees, handling fees , taxes ...He also found out that they had put a new cutter for no reason since the old one was perfect without mentioning it on the invoice ( I couldn't believe it). But understand that the new cutter will be good for nothing in another 4 years. Airtec doesn't want anybody to open their AAD even to change the batteries since this is their secret.Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #18 June 18, 2008 Quote Airtec doesn't want anybody to open their AAD even to change the batteries since this is their secret. 4-8 years inspection does not include changing of the battery, so you have to change or get it changed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DrewEckhardt 0 #19 June 18, 2008 Quote Quote Airtec doesn't want anybody to open their AAD even to change the batteries since this is their secret. 4-8 years inspection does not include changing of the battery, so you have to change or get it changed. If you have a Cypres-1. With the Cypres-2 the 4/8 year maintenance is all inclusive. Quote Although the initial purchase price of CYPRES 2 is higher, for the skydiver the new CYPRES is less expensive than the old one because you will never have to purchase a battery! The power supply handling of CYPRES 2 is simply a portion of the maintenance, and included in the cost. http://www.cypres2.com/ If you're buying used this should be reflected in the purchase price. Before the dollar tanked, the originals ran less than $900 if you shopped although airtec should have seen similar total cash flow with the $85 battery replacements every 2 years. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydivepete 0 #20 June 18, 2008 Where is the Argus in this debate? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites erdnarob 1 #21 June 19, 2008 I was waiting for that question. First, did you notice that Argus has a 12 years life expectancy like the Cypres, that Argus has a 4 and 8 years maintenance just like the Cypres, Argus has 4 modes in the same unit while Cypres II has the possibillity to have those 4 modes separately, Airtec never bashes about Argus, in Reno Symposium in February 2007, Argus had its booth in front of Cypres while Vigil was at the opposite side of the hall from them, Argus has its cutter made by Nobel Energetics from Scotland and my little finger tells me Nobel is also the cutter provider for Cypres (BTW, Nobel refused to make cutters for Vigil) I wonder why ???????????????. For sure there are differences between the 2 units like using batteries from a store and changing them yourself, the display is different and also the appearance... But you have probably guessed it now, Argus is financially linked with Airtec the maker of the Cypres. It looks like Argus is the testing bench for Airtec since Airtec would like to include the 4 modes available on the same unit but because of their "philosophy" they are not about to admit they were wrong not doing it. Therefore they use Argus to do it for them. How do I know that and many details about Cypres and Vigil? Well I have an "intelligence service" which gives me the news concerning a lot of thing related with parachute industry. First, if you want to know something about the Vigil you just ask them and you will be surprised how open they are. If you want details about the Cypres, don't count on Airtec or SSk for it. Just get open a Cypres (not easy) and with an electronics engineer find out and test few componants. I also get info from some French officials who are working on the technical side of the parachute industry. And best of all, nothing can stop the technically curious person I am. Each time I have the chance, I visit parachute manufacturers and ask for special tour of their shop and ask a lot of questions.Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites erdnarob 1 #22 June 20, 2008 Hi Andyturner, did I answer your PS?Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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DrewEckhardt 0 #9 June 17, 2008 QuoteHi, I'm in the process of buying used kit and would like as much info as possible on used AADs & Reserves. Is there a shelf life on either? What do you look for? I'd look for a Cypres. Presumably during its 4 year inspection they test it while freezing it, cooking it, and sending it for chamber rides so they'll catch faults which don't show up in a simple self-test. I'd look to pay no more than $12/month of life remaining. That's what a new Cypres-2 costs (the higher initial purchase price is offset by no battery replacements at $85/pop) and what a Cypres-1 purchased for under $900 cost when the dollar was strong plus its 5 $85 battery replacements. Start with 147 months and subtract its current age. Ex: 147 - 10 years 3 months = 24 months left. Multiply by 12 = $288. Add the $80 tade-in. $368. Subtract your out of pocket battery cost (potentially $85) and inspection costs ($200 after you've shipped in both directions). A timed out Cypres with less than 30 months on it pretty much only has its trade-in value. I don't think I'll bother getting the 8-year on my 1998 Cypres and I've seen slightly older units offered free to new jumpers if they'll let it be sent in for service on their dime. Cypresses nearing their 8 year inspection are also usually not a good value because they'll require the $200 4-year inspection and then the $200 8-year inspection for not much over 4 years of life. They may even be worthless to you as a buyer wanting an AAD tomorrow and not in 3 months when just a 8 year will suffice. I'd also look for a PD reserve especially if I planned on doing any freeflying because of the reinforcing. They've always had span-wise reinforcing tapes across all the line attachments (I've seen an over-speed reserve deployment from an unconscious Cypres fire split a reserve into 2 and 5 cell pieces held together by the single tape at the tail; that was not pretty), land nice (you may be landing on an asphalt parking lot), and have good quality control (I've never heard of a built-in turn). PDs are definitely better built than pre-2001 Tempos and Ravens before the R-max series. Smarts are allegedly nice too but I haven't crawled inside or demoed one. More wear occurs during the repack than use and PD requires theirs to be sent in for porosity testing after 40 repacks (or 25 uses) which would be about 13 years although lots of gear just sits on shelves (I haven't jumped any of my rigs since getting broken 9 months ago, and one hasn't been jumped or repacked for a couple years since I relocated to a more relaxed state where there was no way I needed to make back to back loads). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andyturner 0 #10 June 17, 2008 A heated debate, GOOD! How abount an independant experiment? We collect some out of date Cyprus's & put new batteries in them. I know where we can get at least 3. We also find/buy an equivelent number of VIGELS of a similar age or older and do some real testing. I volenteer to Zero the things at 3000ft and then jump from 5000ft + if that helps? We make data recordings & write up our findings etc. Apart from battery life & life of pyrotechnic charge I can'nt see a problem with a unit serviving tens of years? regards Andy PS. I also know where we can get several VIGEL 1 units we can test. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #11 June 17, 2008 Quote QuoteOn the other hand, look at a Cypres II and a Vigil II side by side. There is no comparison. The first is a plastic box with wiring looking like the ones used for electronic toys and which are easily broken and the second one made of sturdy cast aluminum with Kevlar reinforced wires. It should be noted however, that if these wires were truly "easily broken", they would be broken frequently, yes? I'm sure it has happened, but I haven't yet known anyone who has had their cypres wires break... have you? (that is not intended as a snide remark, if you have, I'd like the info). When the Cypres was still getting popular, people used to break the Cypres control unit wiring by standing their rigs on their yokes to pack the pilot chute. We learned that could get expensive and stopped. I know one rigger who managed to set the control unit on top of a hard tool while putting all his weight on the reserve container and had to buy the customer a new one but no other modern failures. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UDSkyJunkie 0 #12 June 17, 2008 QuoteApart from battery life & life of pyrotechnic charge I can'nt see a problem with a unit serviving tens of years? Vibration and temperature change are the two most common failure modes for almost everything, and electronics are particularly vulnerable to both. You could have a huge argument over how much of either an AAD sees... it shouldn't see much vibe normally, although if you land on your butt a lot it's exposed enough that it might get a few whacks. Temp-wise it probably sees more than we think... not much temperature protection once the main is open and electronics heat up internally just from turning on. Tens of years? no doubt most would last that long. It's all about statistics and confidence... at my old aviation job certain critical parts had to have a failure rate less than 1 failure per billion flight hours or billion events, and were life-limited if after some amount of use we believed we got outside that condition. Assuming AAD mfr's use a similar logic, it's likley that they are 99.99% confident that a unit could last 30, 40, 50 years... but have decided that's not good enough. So, they picked 12 years or 20 years for reasons that they have not disclosed. Some say it's arbitrary, others that it's a money-grab, and others that it's based on specific data. The truth is probably a bit of all three."Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #13 June 17, 2008 QuoteA heated debate, GOOD! How abount an independant experiment? We collect some out of date Cyprus's & put new batteries in them. I know where we can get at least 3. We also find/buy an equivelent number of VIGELS of a similar age or older and do some real testing. I'd rather some one run 20,000 8 year old vigils run through ovens, freezers, and altitude chambers with measurements to see how they're still working because that's most relevant to whether one's likely to kill me. Airtec should have done that with Cypresses by 2006 (21,700 had been sold by 1998). If your AAD doesn't fire and you die, it's not a big loss because you would have died anyways. If your AAD fires when it shouldn't, your deploying reserve can break the plane and kill everyone on it. If you're filming a tandem pair it can kill them. If some is docking on you in a vertical formation when it happens you can all die. A required maintenance cycle provides more opportunities to avoid misfires resulting from electronic components and solder joints which have not aged as they should have that electrically look OK at a comfortable temperature with no acceleration or pressure change. It's a good thing for your fellow jumpers. Quote Apart from battery life & life of pyrotechnic charge I can'nt see a problem with a unit serviving tens of years? Capacitors get leaky, electronics are damaged by static, vibrations break marginal solder joints, etc. The real time clock no longer works on my five year old laptop which has never been subjected to temperatures below 0 or 1000 5G shocks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
erdnarob 1 #14 June 18, 2008 You send your Vigil back for a check whenever you want like you decide when to do your car oil change or when to have the snow tires installed. Being a skydiver is being responsible for your own equipment, it's a question of survival. OTOH, I have discussed the reliability of the self-test with systems analysis engineers and they told me that a device like an AAD having a failure when the self test has been successful is not likely to happen provided the software is well designed. For sure Vigil is newer than Cypres but that means nothing. I have a Vector III with a Skyhook and riser cover with magnets and this is new but well tested and so far no manufacturer tops that rig. Strong cable are important when we know that a rig at opening shock is subject to forces going up to 2000 lbs (snatch force). Nothing is rigid in a rig, and the inside of the reserve has its share of stress like all parts of the rig. As a rigger I have sometimes to give a strong massage to the reserve container in order to better distribute the reserve canopy volume, another form of stress for the cables. Cypres is not protected from faulty pressure sensors and that was the case for the recent recall of 800 Cypres units. When I say the Vigil is faster than the Cypres because of its use of Pulse Plus device which stays charged and fire within 2 milliseconds when conditions of firing are met, we don't have to forget that time means loss of altitude at the rate of 174 feet a second. That can make the difference between being alive or dead just like the Skyhook deploys a reserve on 75 feet instead of 150+ feet for a pilot chute deployed reserve. There are 28 saves for the Vigil (seen on their Web site) with about 9000 units in services. Cypres has more saves but has also more units in service. You can download the last 16 minutes of the Vigil (provided you have the software and the interface). I believe for a DZ it's a very important feature when something questionable happens in the air. The download provides you with all the data of the jumps and better yet you can like a Protrack get graphs for altitude -time and speed-time of your jumps. In some case this feature could possibly become a way to defend yourself in case of a lawsuit as a DZO. Now for a DZ with rental, student and tandem rigs, isn't nice to manage when the rigs are Vigil equiped and you can withing few minutes remove a Vigil from a student rig and put it in a tandem rig by just changing the mode. The DZ using Vigil love it for that feature. I personnally sold my Vigil I which has now another life in a student rig. I have now a Vigil II used in the PRO mode but recently I lent it for a couple of weeks to a friend of mine who is still on student status and have a medical problem. I figured out he needed the Vigil II more than me. As soon as my friend got his Vigil II (one more week), I will get mine back and thanks to the three modes. For sure Vigil and Cypres are both good devices but Vigil i and II are more user friendly and are one generation ahead with respect to the Cypres. The Vigil II has a batteries set lasting for 2000 jumps and 7+ years, not 4 years. Cypres has a culture of secrecy. Look at their 4 or 8 years servive invoice and you will find no details about what they have checked, they will even not tell you that they have changed the cutter when the old one was still OK. Advanced Aerospace Designs the maker of the Vigil is way more open about their device. You ask them.Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #15 June 18, 2008 QuoteCypres has a culture of secrecy. Look at their 4 or 8 years servive invoice and you will find no details about what they have checked, they will even not tell you that they have changed the cutter when the old one was still OK. I have received a small booklet with my device returning from the 8 years inspection, there were rather detailed with what they have done. I can scan it if I can find it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
erdnarob 1 #16 June 18, 2008 Sorry I just forgot. I am on a technical and safety committee and yes, Cypres cables break and the best of all, they have generally to be returned to Germany at least until recently.Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
erdnarob 1 #17 June 18, 2008 That wasn't the case for a friend of mine who sent his Cypres 1 for the 8 years maintenance to SSK. No details on the invoice and a bill of almost 400$ including shipping, custom broker fees, handling fees , taxes ...He also found out that they had put a new cutter for no reason since the old one was perfect without mentioning it on the invoice ( I couldn't believe it). But understand that the new cutter will be good for nothing in another 4 years. Airtec doesn't want anybody to open their AAD even to change the batteries since this is their secret.Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #18 June 18, 2008 Quote Airtec doesn't want anybody to open their AAD even to change the batteries since this is their secret. 4-8 years inspection does not include changing of the battery, so you have to change or get it changed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #19 June 18, 2008 Quote Quote Airtec doesn't want anybody to open their AAD even to change the batteries since this is their secret. 4-8 years inspection does not include changing of the battery, so you have to change or get it changed. If you have a Cypres-1. With the Cypres-2 the 4/8 year maintenance is all inclusive. Quote Although the initial purchase price of CYPRES 2 is higher, for the skydiver the new CYPRES is less expensive than the old one because you will never have to purchase a battery! The power supply handling of CYPRES 2 is simply a portion of the maintenance, and included in the cost. http://www.cypres2.com/ If you're buying used this should be reflected in the purchase price. Before the dollar tanked, the originals ran less than $900 if you shopped although airtec should have seen similar total cash flow with the $85 battery replacements every 2 years. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydivepete 0 #20 June 18, 2008 Where is the Argus in this debate? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
erdnarob 1 #21 June 19, 2008 I was waiting for that question. First, did you notice that Argus has a 12 years life expectancy like the Cypres, that Argus has a 4 and 8 years maintenance just like the Cypres, Argus has 4 modes in the same unit while Cypres II has the possibillity to have those 4 modes separately, Airtec never bashes about Argus, in Reno Symposium in February 2007, Argus had its booth in front of Cypres while Vigil was at the opposite side of the hall from them, Argus has its cutter made by Nobel Energetics from Scotland and my little finger tells me Nobel is also the cutter provider for Cypres (BTW, Nobel refused to make cutters for Vigil) I wonder why ???????????????. For sure there are differences between the 2 units like using batteries from a store and changing them yourself, the display is different and also the appearance... But you have probably guessed it now, Argus is financially linked with Airtec the maker of the Cypres. It looks like Argus is the testing bench for Airtec since Airtec would like to include the 4 modes available on the same unit but because of their "philosophy" they are not about to admit they were wrong not doing it. Therefore they use Argus to do it for them. How do I know that and many details about Cypres and Vigil? Well I have an "intelligence service" which gives me the news concerning a lot of thing related with parachute industry. First, if you want to know something about the Vigil you just ask them and you will be surprised how open they are. If you want details about the Cypres, don't count on Airtec or SSk for it. Just get open a Cypres (not easy) and with an electronics engineer find out and test few componants. I also get info from some French officials who are working on the technical side of the parachute industry. And best of all, nothing can stop the technically curious person I am. Each time I have the chance, I visit parachute manufacturers and ask for special tour of their shop and ask a lot of questions.Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
erdnarob 1 #22 June 20, 2008 Hi Andyturner, did I answer your PS?Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
